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Ultimate Unit Spamming needs nerf

OP Evil Kage 360

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This video is a prime example of what I see all the time on the multiplayer if there is no rush or I counter the rush

https://youtu.be/yT_WeVKxhO4

Now the problem is that players will just build up 2 scarabs/condors with a ton of Engineers/Nightingales to just be unstoppable the battle, this particular game that the clip shows

I can think of 4 ways to nerf this without changing any of the Health and damage stats of the ultimate unit
• Ultimate Units are limited to 1 per player now matter what the population cap is
• Healers do 20% less healing, or Healers can no longer heal units in combat
• Supplies and Power now has a 60 second Cooldown after sending resources to another player
• Ultimate units now cost 4000 Supplies and Power

ske7ch I'd like for you to see this, it needs to be addressed, everyone uses it and it's a huge problem
This video is a prime example of what I see all the time on the multiplayer if there is no rush or I counter the rush

https://youtu.be/yT_WeVKxhO4

Now the problem is that players will just build up 2 scarabs/condors with a ton of Engineers/Nightingales to just be unstoppable the battle, this particular game that the clip shows

I can think of 4 ways to nerf this without changing any of the Health and damage stats of the ultimate unit
• Ultimate Units are limited to 1 per player now matter what the population cap is
• Healers do 20% less healing, or Healers can no longer heal units in combat
• Supplies and Power now has a 60 second Cooldown after sending resources to another player
• Ultimate units now cost 4000 Supplies and Power

ske7ch I'd like for you to see this, it needs to be addressed, everyone uses it and it's a huge problem
This does not need to be addressed. Ultimate unit spam is not broken and against good players is not even possible. Unfortunately, not everyone should speak to balance changes. As you play the game more and get better your games will on longer get that late and if they do it won't be possible for them to build a super unit if you are playing properly.
Yeah you pretty much never see ultimate units in high level games. Build time is too long and they can't stand up to properly constructed armies. If you opponents are hitting you with multiple ultimates your probably giving them way to much time without putting the pressure on. If you notice a long pause between one attack and another its probably a sign your opponents are trying to build these units and you should attack them before they're finished, build the appropriate counter, or both. Ultimate units are actually pretty nicely balanced in this game can occasionally turn the tide but in the end they're pretty much exactly worth they're 40 pop. With a bit of practice and strategy adjustment you should have no trouble beating these kind of tatics
Yeah you pretty much never see ultimate units in high level games. Build time is too long and they can't stand up to properly constructed armies. If you opponents are hitting you with multiple ultimates your probably giving them way to much time without putting the pressure on. If you notice a long pause between one attack and another its probably a sign your opponents are trying to build these units and you should attack them before they're finished, build the appropriate counter or both. Ultimate units are actually pretty nicely balanced in this game can occasionally turn the tide but in the end they're pretty much exactly worth they're 40 pop. With a bit of practice and strategy adjustment you should have no trouble beating these kind of tatics
Go ahead tell me how you would counter that, odds are I've tried it already, I want you to lay out a step by step process on how you plan on beating that
I don't think you can counter what's currently sitting there.

Putting pressure on your opponent constantly and not letting them turtle up in the first place is one of the best ways to go about it.
Yeah you pretty much never see ultimate units in high level games. Build time is too long and they can't stand up to properly constructed armies. If you opponents are hitting you with multiple ultimates your probably giving them way to much time without putting the pressure on. If you notice a long pause between one attack and another its probably a sign your opponents are trying to build these units and you should attack them before they're finished, build the appropriate counter or both. Ultimate units are actually pretty nicely balanced in this game can occasionally turn the tide but in the end they're pretty much exactly worth they're 40 pop. With a bit of practice and strategy adjustment you should have no trouble beating these kind of tatics
Go ahead tell me how you would counter that, odds are I've tried it already, I want you to lay out a step by step process on how you plan on beating that
First you start by not turtling then you have plenty of time while they are building the units to kill everything and they are super expensive so if you are playing correctly you should have them dead before they ever build the first couple
healers need to nerf amount healed to super units. or health nerf.
Yeah you pretty much never see ultimate units in high level games. Build time is too long and they can't stand up to properly constructed armies. If you opponents are hitting you with multiple ultimates your probably giving them way to much time without putting the pressure on. If you notice a long pause between one attack and another its probably a sign your opponents are trying to build these units and you should attack them before they're finished, build the appropriate counter or both. Ultimate units are actually pretty nicely balanced in this game can occasionally turn the tide but in the end they're pretty much exactly worth they're 40 pop. With a bit of practice and strategy adjustment you should have no trouble beating these kind of tatics
Go ahead tell me how you would counter that, odds are I've tried it already, I want you to lay out a step by step process on how you plan on beating that
Yeah your never going to counter six scarabs lol, the point is your opponent should never be getting there. In your vid you've got 5k power and 2k resources which is not good, that means you've spent way to much time stockpiling resources instead of spending. With that kind of income you should have had a full and upgraded army long before that point in the game. You basically never want to have spare resources unless you have them saved for something very specific (a high cost upgrade or leader power). Your saying this happens after you counter a rush, if you counter a rush you should immediately be counter attacking, taking back power nodes, and controlling the map. Countering a rush means you should have a unit and possible technological advantage but if you don't leverage this immediately your temporary upper hand is lost. If you don't have enough of an army left over to push on their bases at least take as much map control as possible (so you can have a better income an faster unit production later, as well as more vision to see what your opponent is doing). Even if they've rushed you and then backed off, they're still going to have all that time where they're sitting there building scarabs or condors with no other units to defend. Which is more than enough time for you to make a preemptive offensive. You're right, if the other team has 2 scarabs a person with healing units and you've got half pop you have probably already lost. But just the same if the other team had a full army of tanks or locusts on your base in that vid you still would have been equally screwed. Work on your macro management (how you're using resources), and if your think they're going ultimates, push as soon as possible, even if they get out one scarab and you meet them with hunters and vehicles (wraiths, locust, potentially reavers for the healers) its gonna go down real quick. Another option for you since you playing ship master is to hit their base with locusts, if a scarab pops out displace it into a group of hunters and vehicles. Then the base is defenseless and going to drop fast to the locusts and the scarab's going to be all alone facing a counter army and go down fast as well. Sorry for the long answer to the question but yeah again your likely not going to beat the 6 scarab army unless you have a similar army yourself. The problem is whatever led up to that point in the game, where they got to turtle up that much to begin with.
My god I'm preaching to the Peanut Gallery here, rushing them won't stop a scarab or a condor coming out, a 1v1 sure yeah you rushing can stop it, 2v2 maybe, but 3v3, when 2 players are throwing resources at another to get a scarab, no it's coming out to save the day, and even when we kill the 1st scarab is killed oh hey another pops up, then another, then 2 are out then we got healers, then we have 3 and then 4 , at that point our massive armies are being decimated, and if your going up against an atriox, then your completely screwed with that Annihation beam destroying armies in the matter of seconds, it just becomes a spam fest of scarabs and condors, I find condors easy to deal with, but scarabs and healers are damn near impossible, I've tried everything and it is, the only time I ever have success on the rush is when you get a player who doesn't know how to counter it
Yeah you pretty much never see ultimate units in high level games. Build time is too long and they can't stand up to properly constructed armies. If you opponents are hitting you with multiple ultimates your probably giving them way to much time without putting the pressure on. If you notice a long pause between one attack and another its probably a sign your opponents are trying to build these units and you should attack them before they're finished, build the appropriate counter or both. Ultimate units are actually pretty nicely balanced in this game can occasionally turn the tide but in the end they're pretty much exactly worth they're 40 pop. With a bit of practice and strategy adjustment you should have no trouble beating these kind of tatics
Go ahead tell me how you would counter that, odds are I've tried it already, I want you to lay out a step by step process on how you plan on beating that
A decent army comp. with wolves attacking while they are at your base with anti-air turrets? I mean, it's totally possible. You just need to get better at mid/late game play and strats.
Yeah you pretty much never see ultimate units in high level games. Build time is too long and they can't stand up to properly constructed armies. If you opponents are hitting you with multiple ultimates your probably giving them way to much time without putting the pressure on. If you notice a long pause between one attack and another its probably a sign your opponents are trying to build these units and you should attack them before they're finished, build the appropriate counter or both. Ultimate units are actually pretty nicely balanced in this game can occasionally turn the tide but in the end they're pretty much exactly worth they're 40 pop. With a bit of practice and strategy adjustment you should have no trouble beating these kind of tatics
Go ahead tell me how you would counter that, odds are I've tried it already, I want you to lay out a step by step process on how you plan on beating that
Yeah your never going to counter six scarabs lol, the point is your opponent should never be getting there. In your vid you've got 5k power and 2k resources which is not good, that means you've spent way to much time stockpiling resources instead of spending. With that kind of income you should have had a full and upgraded army long before that point in the game. You basically never want to have spare resources unless you have them saved for something very specific (a high cost upgrade or leader power). Your saying this happens after you counter a rush, if you counter a rush you should immediately be counter attacking, taking back power nodes, and controlling the map. Countering a rush means you should have a unit and possible technological advantage but if you don't leverage this immediately your temporary upper hand is lost. If you don't have enough of an army left over to push on their bases at least take as much map control as possible (so you can have a better income an faster unit production later, as well as more vision to see what your opponent is doing). Even if they've rushed you and then backed off, they're still going to have all that time where they're sitting there building scarabs or condors with no other units to defend. Which is more than enough time for you to make a preemptive offensive. You're right, if the other team has 2 scarabs a person with healing units and you've got half pop you have probably already lost. But just the same if the other team had a full army of tanks or locusts on your base in that vid you still would have been equally screwed. Work on your macro management (how you're using resources), and if your think they're going ultimates, push as soon as possible, even if they get out one scarab and you meet them with hunters and vehicles (wraiths, locust, potentially reavers for the healers) its gonna go down real quick. Another option for you since you playing ship master is to hit their base with locusts, if a scarab pops out displace it into a group of hunters and vehicles. Then the base is defenseless and going to drop fast to the locusts and the scarab's going to be all alone facing a counter army and go down fast as well. Sorry for the long answer to the question but yeah again your likely not going to beat the 6 scarab army unless you have a similar army yourself. The problem is whatever led up to that point in the game, where they got to turtle up that much to begin with.
The reason is I spent alot on Banshees at that point in the game, they require no power, just supplies, I had 2 other bases giving me resources, them problem with this particular game is that I was up against 2 Atrioxs, and there Annihation beams, which shreaded through them, that nearly dead scarab of mine just came out of a fight with those scarabs, it was accompanied by 20 banshees and had healers on the way but the beam pretty much destroy them all
My god I'm preaching to the Peanut Gallery here, rushing them won't stop a scarab or a condor coming out, a 1v1 sure yeah you rushing can stop it, 2v2 maybe, but 3v3, when 2 players are throwing resources at another to get a scarab, no it's coming out to save the day, and even when we kill the 1st scarab is killed oh hey another pops up, then another, then 2 are out then we got healers, then we have 3 and then 4 , at that point our massive armies are being decimated, and if your going up against an atriox, then your completely screwed with that Annihation beam destroying armies in the matter of seconds, it just becomes a spam fest of scarabs and condors, I find condors easy to deal with, but scarabs and healers are damn near impossible, I've tried everything and it is, the only time I ever have success on the rush is when you get a player who doesn't know how to counter it
Lol I mean i can't give you any more advice than that on a forum post... All I can say is in my last 30 games (and I'm high in champion btw), Ive seen 0 scarabs and 1 desperation condor that lasted <1min and that because people don't have time to build them. Not because i rush (I usually counter rush or attack at ~8min since I play banished) but because i put enough pressure on by the 8-10 minute mark that people are too busy frantically building units to try and defend (or I've already lost to a top kinsano rush by then but that's irrelevant to this lol), and before those 8min i have grunts and scouts out doing the best to take all the map control possible. You don't have to rush to win but you can't let your opponent have every node and the whole map like they did by that time in your vid an expect to win. I have played predominately 1v1s but still dozens of 2v2 and 3v3 games and have not once had a problem dealing with ultimate units because people simply dont have time to mass them. If the second one pops out you should already have more units streaming in to deal with it. And eradication is op yes.... but only for killing bases, not for killing armies. Eradicate is very slow and easy to dodge with units. You can simply walk out of the way, or with atriox use defensive abilities, with ship master use a short range tele. There are a lottt of options.
Yeah you pretty much never see ultimate units in high level games. Build time is too long and they can't stand up to properly constructed armies. If you opponents are hitting you with multiple ultimates your probably giving them way to much time without putting the pressure on. If you notice a long pause between one attack and another its probably a sign your opponents are trying to build these units and you should attack them before they're finished, build the appropriate counter or both. Ultimate units are actually pretty nicely balanced in this game can occasionally turn the tide but in the end they're pretty much exactly worth they're 40 pop. With a bit of practice and strategy adjustment you should have no trouble beating these kind of tatics
Go ahead tell me how you would counter that, odds are I've tried it already, I want you to lay out a step by step process on how you plan on beating that
Yeah your never going to counter six scarabs lol, the point is your opponent should never be getting there. In your vid you've got 5k power and 2k resources which is not good, that means you've spent way to much time stockpiling resources instead of spending. With that kind of income you should have had a full and upgraded army long before that point in the game. You basically never want to have spare resources unless you have them saved for something very specific (a high cost upgrade or leader power). Your saying this happens after you counter a rush, if you counter a rush you should immediately be counter attacking, taking back power nodes, and controlling the map. Countering a rush means you should have a unit and possible technological advantage but if you don't leverage this immediately your temporary upper hand is lost. If you don't have enough of an army left over to push on their bases at least take as much map control as possible (so you can have a better income an faster unit production later, as well as more vision to see what your opponent is doing). Even if they've rushed you and then backed off, they're still going to have all that time where they're sitting there building scarabs or condors with no other units to defend. Which is more than enough time for you to make a preemptive offensive. You're right, if the other team has 2 scarabs a person with healing units and you've got half pop you have probably already lost. But just the same if the other team had a full army of tanks or locusts on your base in that vid you still would have been equally screwed. Work on your macro management (how you're using resources), and if your think they're going ultimates, push as soon as possible, even if they get out one scarab and you meet them with hunters and vehicles (wraiths, locust, potentially reavers for the healers) its gonna go down real quick. Another option for you since you playing ship master is to hit their base with locusts, if a scarab pops out displace it into a group of hunters and vehicles. Then the base is defenseless and going to drop fast to the locusts and the scarab's going to be all alone facing a counter army and go down fast as well. Sorry for the long answer to the question but yeah again your likely not going to beat the 6 scarab army unless you have a similar army yourself. The problem is whatever led up to that point in the game, where they got to turtle up that much to begin with.
The reason is I spent alot on Banshees at that point in the game, they require no power, just supplies, I had 2 other bases giving me resources, them problem with this particular game is that I was up against 2 Atrioxs, and there Annihation beams, which shreaded through them, that nearly dead scarab of mine just came out of a fight with those scarabs, it was accompanied by 20 banshees and had healers on the way but the beam pretty much destroy them all
Even if your building banshees get global upgrades, upgrade turrets upgrade stuff your not even using if you really have that much spare, you may need to switch. Also you didn't even have fortify one there at your armory, that series of upgrades is hugely important especially now pre fortify nerf. If you have too much power delete a reactor (i know it hurts) build another supply bad or unit building to get more things out faster, you have to think about what your going to build and plan economy accordingly, if you plans change you may have to change your economy with it. Literally every second off this game you be thinking how can i be using what i have to take more ground or build more or better units. There's always something you can be doing with your resources.
The only one that's a problem atm is the Atriox scarabs+engis+invulnerable powers.

But the powers are being addressed in the next patch.
Honestly, when I see an ultimate unit in a game, I usually rejoice. I know, at that point, that my opponent is probably resource poor. Sure, the condor or scarab requires immediate attention, but they are usually pretty easy to deal with and as soon as it is taken care of, I can basically waltz into their base and destroy it without much resistance. Ultimate units, however, are good at breaking sieges or if you can surprise your opponent, but typically, they don't end up even getting used in higher level games because of the cost/relative ineffectiveness of them.
Yeah I've never had and issue with ultimate units. I mainly play cutter, and Cyclops or hornet's smash scarabs while marines or wolverines destroy condors (even use hornet's against the healers)

If you're opponent is attacking you with that many ult units and healers then that's on you. You let them sit there and get to that point. If I ever use one, it's only 1 and it's more there to support my army than anything.

They don't need nerfing, itd just make them useless.
The only one that's a problem atm is the Atriox scarabs+engis+invulnerable powers.

But the powers are being addressed in the next patch.
I agree. That's the only time they've been threatening really. Glad his eradication is getting sorted out.
I'm going to have to agree that there is no change needed here. It has been pointed out that if you let your enemy get to the point of building these units, that is your failure. If someone is getting sent the resources to build these, that means the team mates will be weak and have no army. If you fail to scout out the enemy to find a player rushing to tech 3 and only has a War Council or Armory on their base, that is once again your problem.
No change is needed.
seems more of a L2P thing to me.
seems more of a L2P thing to me.
What does that mean?
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