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Why are Elite's so weak all of a sudden?

OP AfootBicycle793

I know out of the big three Brute's elite and Spartans Brute's have always been the strongest of the 3 but does anyone else think it's crazy how the brute's at the intro cut scene just slaughter those elites?

One elite was simply killed just by a brute grabbing him by the throat and slightly moving his thumb snapping the poor guys neck.

What's the point of them being called Elite's if they're just cannon fodder? Even in game the weakest units are the Elites. Ghosts, Rangers and the Honor Guard are the weakest in each of their respective calls types.

Does anyone remember when it was said that Elite's have the same combat skill as Spartans? That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

What happened?
I think in Atriox's intro the thing was the Elites were ambushed. Brutes are naturally stronger and with the element of surprise they could take away the elite's strengths of speed and cunning. Plus the guy who broke an elite's neck was Decimus, who's just a boss.

In regards to gameplay, the rangers are weak on accident, they should be fixing that soon.
Does anyone remember when it was said that Elite's have the same combat skill as Spartans? That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
It never was, chief kills tons of them every game.

In FoR chief notes the elite is as strong as him, but the elite in FoR was also abnormally large, more in line with a 343-style elite. Mere physical strength does not determine one's usefulness in a modern or sci-fi battlefield with guns.

As for the particular cutscene, the elites were not expecting a fight, especially from all of them. Contact Harvest made it clear the elites were needlessly arrogant in their treatment of the brutes. Most of the elites in the cutscene have their backs to the other brutes, and the elite Atriox killed was probably confident that his energy sword + allies could kill Atriox before he could do anything (if he did)

The balance of an RTS is also largely unconcerned with canon. RTS games usually try to write their lore around the units, not the other way around.
Does anyone remember when it was said that Elite's have the same combat skill as Spartans? That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
It never was, chief kills tons of them every game.

In FoR chief notes the elite is as strong as him, but the elite in FoR was also abnormally large, more in line with a 343-style elite. Mere physical strength does not determine one's usefulness in a modern or sci-fi battlefield with guns.

As for the particular cutscene, the elites were not expecting a fight, especially from all of them. Contact Harvest made it clear the elites were needlessly arrogant in their treatment of the brutes. Most of the elites in the cutscene have their backs to the other brutes, and the elite Atriox killed was probably confident that his energy sword + allies could kill Atriox before he could do anything (if he did)

The balance of an RTS is also largely unconcerned with canon. RTS games usually try to write their lore around the units, not the other way around.
I didn't say the elites matched them in strength but in combat skills. It was talked about alot in the past about how the reason Humanity did so well against the Covenant is that fact that their religion and sense of honor held back much of their power. The Covenant's reluctance to do X and Y and odd statue of leadership allowed us for fight them effectively.

Even in terms of canon in Halo 2 the Arbiter goes through far more challenging missions then the Master Chief. While MC fights standard Covie forces in the city streets of old Mombasa, Thel is fighting a commando unit of Sangheili with sentinel aggressor allies.

Elite's are extremely well trained warriors again rivaling Spartans, but the Spartans didn't have the weight of religion or honor bogging up their attack which gave them an invaluable asset in battle, the ability of freedom. This with how well they knew and cared for each other turned a team of Spartans into what is without a doubt the most effective fighting force in the modern galaxy. as we see throughout all of Halo, many within the Covenant willingly will lead their own troops to death because of status and or general annoyance, I.E The Flood. That along with the fact that elites rarely fought in entire squads. One elite, 5 grunts and a jackal is nothing compared to 6 Spartans is without a doubt a ROLFstomp. It's even expressed further that elites found certain tactics just downright cowardice, even shown in Halo 5 by how they insult people for taking cover.

It seems like their sensibility is intact just not their combat skills which is odd. You can't know one without the other. Some stuff is without a doubt listed under plot armor, a sad truth of any tale but when we don't look at those characters who the plot demanded needed to live for X reason we can see the truth of skills. Comparing the best Spartans i.E Locke, MC or Nobel 6 to the average elite is just insane same with comparing Rtas, Thel or Ripa to the average elitem, who much lik te hte spartan heros just as easily have plot armor in X situation.
I think in Atriox's intro the thing was the Elites were ambushed. Brutes are naturally stronger and with the element of surprise they could take away the elite's strengths of speed and cunning. Plus the guy who broke an elite's neck was Decimus, who's just a boss.

In regards to gameplay, the rangers are weak on accident, they should be fixing that soon.
Yeah that shouldn't be the standard of status. Just because someone is cool shouldn't allow them to just turbo murder people. Johnson shouldn't just come back from the grave and one shot a Guardian and we should never see Rtas playing the role of One Punch man and make Loche explode with....one punch. What's the point of establishing canon if you're just going to shatter it?

Halo isn't DC, 343i just can't say "It's because he's Batman!" and everyone just goes "Oh, yeah, were almost forgot." then everything is normal.
I think in Atriox's intro the thing was the Elites were ambushed. Brutes are naturally stronger and with the element of surprise they could take away the elite's strengths of speed and cunning. Plus the guy who broke an elite's neck was Decimus, who's just a boss.

In regards to gameplay, the rangers are weak on accident, they should be fixing that soon.
Yeah that shouldn't be the standard of status. Just because someone is cool shouldn't allow them to just turbo murder people. Johnson shouldn't just come back from the grave and one shot a Guardian and we should never see Rtas playing the role of One Punch man and make Loche explode with....one punch. What's the point of establishing canon if you're just going to shatter it?

Halo isn't DC, 343i just can't say "It's because he's Batman!" and everyone just goes "Oh, yeah, were almost forgot." then everything is normal.
Guess I should have explained it better. Decimus is considered strong and savage, even by brute standards. Understanding this makes it more believable to me.
I think in Atriox's intro the thing was the Elites were ambushed. Brutes are naturally stronger and with the element of surprise they could take away the elite's strengths of speed and cunning. Plus the guy who broke an elite's neck was Decimus, who's just a boss.

In regards to gameplay, the rangers are weak on accident, they should be fixing that soon.
Yeah that shouldn't be the standard of status. Just because someone is cool shouldn't allow them to just turbo murder people. Johnson shouldn't just come back from the grave and one shot a Guardian and we should never see Rtas playing the role of One Punch man and make Loche explode with....one punch. What's the point of establishing canon if you're just going to shatter it?

Halo isn't DC, 343i just can't say "It's because he's Batman!" and everyone just goes "Oh, yeah, were almost forgot." then everything is normal.
Guess I should have explained it better. Decimus is considered strong and savage, even by brute standards. Understanding this makes it more believable to me.
That certainly does add alot. To think that he's the brute of a brute is a show of power in on itself.
Elites were always physically weaker than both brutes and spartans. The hierarchy went something like this

Grunts, Jackals, etc < Normal humans <<< Elites < Spartans <<< Brutes <<<<<<< Hunters

Elites could put up a fight vs spartans, but the spartans would generally win one on one fights, with the help of mjolnir. Brutes have always been powerful enough to just throw spartans around like wet paper towels, and they could take a god damn shotgun round, or a pistol round to the head, and survive.

Elites just had the advantage of being higher up in society, allowing them to have better weapons, armour, and access to intel compared to the brutes. Eventually the heirarchs discarded the elites in favour of the brutes strength, causing the great schism.

In a one on one fist fight with no weapons, a brute will beat an elite every time, and beat a spartan 7 times out of 10.

They are just kind of stupid for the most part though, and get easily outwitted by spartans, which allow spartans to prevail against them in the field, or elites prevail against them in space.
Elites were always physically weaker than both brutes and spartans. The hierarchy went something like this

Grunts, Jackals, etc < Normal humans <<< Elites < Spartans <<< Brutes <<<<<<< Hunters

Elites could put up a fight vs spartans, but the spartans would generally win one on one fights, with the help of mjolnir. Brutes have always been powerful enough to just throw spartans around like wet paper towels, and they could take a god damn shotgun round, or a pistol round to the head, and survive.

Elites just had the advantage of being higher up in society, allowing them to have better weapons, armour, and access to intel compared to the brutes. Eventually the heirarchs discarded the elites in favour of the brutes strength, causing the great schism.

In a one on one fist fight with no weapons, a brute will beat an elite every time, and beat a spartan 7 times out of 10.

They are just kind of stupid for the most part though, and get easily outwitted by spartans, which allow spartans to prevail against them in the field, or elites prevail against them in space.
This is why Atriox has the potential to be a great villain, not only is he a strong brute but a smart one too.
I didn't say the elites matched them in strength but in combat skills. It was talked about alot in the past about how the reason Humanity did so well against the Covenant is that fact that their religion and sense of honor held back much of their power. The Covenant's reluctance to do X and Y and odd statue of leadership allowed us for fight them effectively.

Even in terms of canon in Halo 2 the Arbiter goes through far more challenging missions then the Master Chief. While MC fights standard Covie forces in the city streets of old Mombasa, Thel is fighting a commando unit of Sangheili with sentinel aggressor allies.

Elite's are extremely well trained warriors again rivaling Spartans, but the Spartans didn't have the weight of religion or honor bogging up their attack which gave them an invaluable asset in battle, the ability of freedom. This with how well they knew and cared for each other turned a team of Spartans into what is without a doubt the most effective fighting force in the modern galaxy. as we see throughout all of Halo, many within the Covenant willingly will lead their own troops to death because of status and or general annoyance, I.E The Flood. That along with the fact that elites rarely fought in entire squads. One elite, 5 grunts and a jackal is nothing compared to 6 Spartans is without a doubt a ROLFstomp. It's even expressed further that elites found certain tactics just downright cowardice, even shown in Halo 5 by how they insult people for taking cover.

It seems like their sensibility is intact just not their combat skills which is odd. You can't know one without the other. Some stuff is without a doubt listed under plot armor, a sad truth of any tale but when we don't look at those characters who the plot demanded needed to live for X reason we can see the truth of skills. Comparing the best Spartans i.E Locke, MC or Nobel 6 to the average elite is just insane same with comparing Rtas, Thel or Ripa to the average elitem, who much lik te hte spartan heros just as easily have plot armor in X situation.
I had a more long winded rebuttle to individual points, but that largely avoids the bigger picture. You've pretty much explained why Elites are portrayed as weak.

They lack proper decision making skills. They are held back by their beliefs and lack trust in basic skills like taking cover. This is a rooky mistake by the measure of any serious military. They are shown as weak because they are weak. Because they are surrounded by people who, even if equal in physical and combat ability, are simply able to do more than they are.

Atriox and his brutes did well because the elites were too caught up in their beliefs to properly handle the situation.

They are elite because they are the elite caste of society, and the upper eschellons of the traditional covenant command structure. That doesn't necessarily make them good though.
I think in Atriox's intro the thing was the Elites were ambushed. Brutes are naturally stronger and with the element of surprise they could take away the elite's strengths of speed and cunning. Plus the guy who broke an elite's neck was Decimus, who's just a boss.

In regards to gameplay, the rangers are weak on accident, they should be fixing that soon.
Yeah that shouldn't be the standard of status. Just because someone is cool shouldn't allow them to just turbo murder people. Johnson shouldn't just come back from the grave and one shot a Guardian and we should never see Rtas playing the role of One Punch man and make Loche explode with....one punch. What's the point of establishing canon if you're just going to shatter it?

Halo isn't DC, 343i just can't say "It's because he's Batman!" and everyone just goes "Oh, yeah, were almost forgot." then everything is normal.
Guess I should have explained it better. Decimus is considered strong and savage, even by brute standards. Understanding this makes it more believable to me.
That certainly does add alot. To think that he's the brute of a brute is a show of power in on itself.
You pretty much already worded it yourself. Brutes are physically stronger than elites. Elites have benefited from having better tech than others. Shields, energy weapons, and the like. But Sanghelli armor always left their neck exposed. So it doesn't come as much surprise that a brute would physically be able to crush their throat if they got close enough. Even Chief was able to 1HKO just about everything with a melee from behind.
I didn't say the elites matched them in strength but in combat skills. It was talked about alot in the past about how the reason Humanity did so well against the Covenant is that fact that their religion and sense of honor held back much of their power. The Covenant's reluctance to do X and Y and odd statue of leadership allowed us for fight them effectively.

Even in terms of canon in Halo 2 the Arbiter goes through far more challenging missions then the Master Chief. While MC fights standard Covie forces in the city streets of old Mombasa, Thel is fighting a commando unit of Sangheili with sentinel aggressor allies.

Elite's are extremely well trained warriors again rivaling Spartans, but the Spartans didn't have the weight of religion or honor bogging up their attack which gave them an invaluable asset in battle, the ability of freedom. This with how well they knew and cared for each other turned a team of Spartans into what is without a doubt the most effective fighting force in the modern galaxy. as we see throughout all of Halo, many within the Covenant willingly will lead their own troops to death because of status and or general annoyance, I.E The Flood. That along with the fact that elites rarely fought in entire squads. One elite, 5 grunts and a jackal is nothing compared to 6 Spartans is without a doubt a ROLFstomp. It's even expressed further that elites found certain tactics just downright cowardice, even shown in Halo 5 by how they insult people for taking cover.

It seems like their sensibility is intact just not their combat skills which is odd. You can't know one without the other. Some stuff is without a doubt listed under plot armor, a sad truth of any tale but when we don't look at those characters who the plot demanded needed to live for X reason we can see the truth of skills. Comparing the best Spartans i.E Locke, MC or Nobel 6 to the average elite is just insane same with comparing Rtas, Thel or Ripa to the average elitem, who much lik te hte spartan heros just as easily have plot armor in X situation.
I had a more long winded rebuttle to individual points, but that largely avoids the bigger picture. You've pretty much explained why Elites are portrayed as weak.

They lack proper decision making skills. They are held back by their beliefs and lack trust in basic skills like taking cover. This is a rooky mistake by the measure of any serious military. They are shown as weak because they are weak. Because they are surrounded by people who, even if equal in physical and combat ability, are simply able to do more than they are.

Atriox and his brutes did well because the elites were too caught up in their beliefs to properly handle the situation.

They are elite because they are the elite caste of society, and the upper eschellons of the traditional covenant command structure. That doesn't necessarily make them good though.
Having someone surrounded and attacking isn't what I'd really call being too caught up in the moment. There is no real reason Atriox's forces after a battle should be capable of fighting sevearl elite assassins known for being the best. While stated above how Decimus is said to be much stronger then any average brute 343i has confirmed that the Sangheili combat harness does improve physical strength and the idea that the best assassins modification on their armor is still nothing to Deciums is flat out absurd.

Also they aren't elites because of their level in their caste within the covenant. Each of the names we gave to the covenant a forces was from how our troops rated their combat skills with elties being that of commandos and grunts being fodder. The only one that doesn't really fit the build are the hunters to my knowledge but that name might come from their relentlessness behavior after a bond brother has been slain.

While it is perfectly understandably to think that the have lack of good judgement that certainly isn't true. Remember, they put us on the brink of extinction. Regardless of how you see the level of tech assisting in this they managed to advance alot faster the we ever could, with extremely heavy restrictions due to their faith and even without the Prophets despite all species being reseeded near the same time. Why take cover when you have a shield that covers your entire body? Also the lack of cover usage isn't from poor judgement just a since of honor.

In many wars even in modern times honor has saved many lives and gotten even more killed. It isn't a lack of decision making but simply a forced way of thinking. (sorry I have to cut this short I wish I could go on but I've got to do some big boy stuff, sorry.)
It was Decimus who broke the Elites neck; so he isn't a normal brute.

My problem was that the Brutes were too fast. I would have thought the elites speed and energy shields would compensate. Its also quite jarring if you play the FPS and generally a sword up close means you die. Quite a few times when a Spartan or Brute seems able to beat sword equipped elites.

I think Blur seem to push the idea that elites are a human equivalent species when really they're meant to be Spartan equivalents. Hence why we can play them in multi-player.

Its also questionable with elites depictions in Halo 4 and 5 where usually the Spartans rely on speed and skill to beat the elites. If they're caught in an actual wrestling match like in Spartan Ops they're pretty even. So Jerome grabbing an elites sword arm and magically disarming him was pretty silly.
I think in Atriox's intro the thing was the Elites were ambushed. Brutes are naturally stronger and with the element of surprise they could take away the elite's strengths of speed and cunning. Plus the guy who broke an elite's neck was Decimus, who's just a boss.

In regards to gameplay, the rangers are weak on accident, they should be fixing that soon.
Yeah that shouldn't be the standard of status. Just because someone is cool shouldn't allow them to just turbo murder people. Johnson shouldn't just come back from the grave and one shot a Guardian and we should never see Rtas playing the role of One Punch man and make Loche explode with....one punch. What's the point of establishing canon if you're just going to shatter it?

Halo isn't DC, 343i just can't say "It's because he's Batman!" and everyone just goes "Oh, yeah, were almost forgot." then everything is normal.
Guess I should have explained it better. Decimus is considered strong and savage, even by brute standards. Understanding this makes it more believable to me.
That certainly does add alot. To think that he's the brute of a brute is a show of power in on itself.
You pretty much already worded it yourself. Brutes are physically stronger than elites. Elites have benefited from having better tech than others. Shields, energy weapons, and the like. But Sanghelli armor always left their neck exposed. So it doesn't come as much surprise that a brute would physically be able to crush their throat if they got close enough. Even Chief was able to 1HKO just about everything with a melee from behind.
Hey, just a heads up I had this typed out before I left the last time I was here but I had to run so I just pasted it on a sticky note. I typed it in a rush as I'm in now. I really just wanted to bring this to you so you could reply and I to you once I have time. Just to seek thoughts and understand your perspective. That being sad, sorry if any of my messages come off as mean. I'm not trying to make it seem that way.

Well in gameplay anything can 1 hit KO another from behind as long as it can take a swing at you which I Love that 343i changed since it was weird as to why the enemies in the past didn't do it atleast to the marines.

More on topic, their necks aren't exactly exposed. The Storm armor is but the the standard combat harness variant has a protective layer under it which is likely the source of the enhanced strength provided by the combat harness while the armor is just armor. Also if I recall correctly, weren't the brute's extremely advance before they nuked their society, so advance that their tech rivaled that of the covenant? Only the modern brutes are "dumb" their ancestors we're pretty well off again if I recall correctly.

Sangehili obtain better armor along with their status, The Blades would likely have some of the best so I doubt a single brute would be able to just so easily destroy all the weaves likely designed to keep such a thing from happening even if that brute is strong. you have to understand, that weave was likely made to keep up with the strength of hunters encase they ever got out of control. Those elites we're tasked with silencing any opposition. Taking on brute's shouldn't of lead into total annihilation of their until regardless of how cleaver that brute is.