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Why do AA units suck so much? (Air not OP)

OP Sarano696

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Please help me with this. Why are these units so bad? Even other counter units (which are pretty bad anyways, but that's another post) posses more utility and durability than anti-air. These units are expensive as hell, no health/pitiful shield, and do virtually no damage against ground units. Even hunters/clopses can serve as shock troopers and decent building damage, but anti-air really feels like shooting yourself in the foot just to counter a dumb blob of cheap spam who's speed forces you to either leave them to go kill one of your bases or have your anti-air chase them to the death (which will most likely be the deaths of the anti-air units since they get shredded by anything at all that doesn't fly). I get that mass-air isn't a massive issue anymore, at least in singles, but this still feels like a problem.
the other counters are fine
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
Sarano696 wrote:
Please help me with this. Why are these units so bad? Even other counter units (which are pretty bad anyways, but that's another post) posses more utility and durability than anti-air. These units are expensive as hell, no health/pitiful shield, and do virtually no damage against ground units. Even hunters/clopses can serve as shock troopers and decent building damage, but anti-air really feels like shooting yourself in the foot just to counter a dumb blob of cheap spam who's speed forces you to either leave them to go kill one of your bases or have your anti-air chase them to the death (which will most likely be the deaths of the anti-air units since they get shredded by anything at all that doesn't fly). I get that mass-air isn't a massive issue anymore, at least in singles, but this still feels like a problem.
If built fast enough, ant air is good for what they are supposed to do. With that being said, there is something severely wrong with them. Like you pointed out, the cost of anti air is too much for what they do. Personally, I feel like it's easier to go mass air than anything else. Why? Cuz they cost NO energy. It just makes it easy to mass them. They have awesome mobility. Melt literally any unit. Destroy bases fairly fast (especially mini bases).
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
That wasn't the main purpose of this post. However, his comment needs further context before we can get into a proper debate over counter unit effectiveness. However, I agree with his sentimentality about anti air
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
That wasn't the main purpose of this post. However, his comment needs further context before we can get into a proper debate over counter unit effectiveness. However, I agree with his sentimentality about anti air
I agree with this post, just beware, a lot of the 'top players' think anti air is in a 'fine spot' and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it (especially wolverines) in their eyes. But, I do think anti air sucks for how much energy it costs. The other thing about core air... (which I have posted about numerous times and don't want to rehash) is the core air can be upgraded seamlessly while you eat up a lot of your yellow resources by producing anti air. So, it can prove difficult to have level 3 wolverines en-mass to counter a large pop of core air level 3 since the air has the upgrade advantage.

Counters are generally T2 units, and should shred the opponents T2 units that they intend to counter. While I think the wolverine interaction against T3 air is pretty solid, and even their interaction with condors... there is a problem in my eyes against T2 units (for both anti vehicle and anti air). Mauraders, warthogs, hornets, and banshees can bowl over their hard counters later in the game either with head on engagements or hit and run with air.
Sarano696 wrote:
Please help me with this. Why are these units so bad? Even other counter units (which are pretty bad anyways, but that's another post) posses more utility and durability than anti-air. These units are expensive as hell, no health/pitiful shield, and do virtually no damage against ground units. Even hunters/clopses can serve as shock troopers and decent building damage, but anti-air really feels like shooting yourself in the foot just to counter a dumb blob of cheap spam who's speed forces you to either leave them to go kill one of your bases or have your anti-air chase them to the death (which will most likely be the deaths of the anti-air units since they get shredded by anything at all that doesn't fly). I get that mass-air isn't a massive issue anymore, at least in singles, but this still feels like a problem.
"Even hunters/clopses can serve as shock troopers and decent building damage"
This used to be the case but not anymore, Not after they nerf the Building Damage and Damage Towards Infantry.

All hard counters are weak agents anything thats not there target, this is by design to help
"Diversify Army's"
You can see this in the patch notes nerfing AA Effectiveness agents Infantry Via a decrees in the AoE by 40%.
And Anti-Vehicles with a decrees in damage to buildings and infantry by
33% -
33% -

My opinion is AA is fine but, passive can tip the scales and so can tech lvl and unit numbers
Examples: Max Air, Max Tanks, fortunately both these strategys require Alot of free time and supplies,
Unfortunately Noobs give there opponents too much free time and almost the same amount of bases as themselves.
the other counters are fine
Key word is other. Still, I disagree. Hunters and Cyclopses are in a bad spot. They don't take much damage and don't deal much. Good for mopping up warthogs but... what isn't?
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Sarano696 wrote:
DA Cleric wrote:
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
That wasn't the main purpose of this post. However, his comment needs further context before we can get into a proper debate over counter unit effectiveness. However, I agree with his sentimentality about anti air
I agree with this post, just beware, a lot of the 'top players' think anti air is in a 'fine spot' and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it (especially wolverines) in their eyes. But, I do think anti air sucks for how much energy it costs. The other thing about core air... (which I have posted about numerous times and don't want to rehash) is the core air can be upgraded seamlessly while you eat up a lot of your yellow resources by producing anti air. So, it can prove difficult to have level 3 wolverines en-mass to counter a large pop of core air level 3 since the air has the upgrade advantage.

Counters are generally T2 units, and should shred the opponents T2 units that they intend to counter. While I think the wolverine interaction against T3 air is pretty solid, and even their interaction with condors... there is a problem in my eyes against T2 units (for both anti vehicle and anti air). Mauraders, warthogs, hornets, and banshees can bowl over their hard counters later in the game either with head on engagements or hit and run with air.
Spot on. If my units cost power, and his don't, shouldn't I haven the advantage rather than just giving myself a chance?
That's how I view it. There's just an imbalance, and it isn't really raw dps. It's more how they interact with each other. If ant air didn't cost energy, I'd be ok with that, especially since they do literally nothing to any other units
Sarano696 wrote:
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
That wasn't the main purpose of this post. However, his comment needs further context before we can get into a proper debate over counter unit effectiveness. However, I agree with his sentimentality about anti air
Cyclopses and hunters don't do much damage to infantry. However, they do decent damage structures and can at least pull their weight against infantry. I never hated having to build anti-vehicle, but I hate building AA. It's weak, does no damage to non-air, and the air blob I built the damn things for gets away half the time because AA is too slow or too weak to chase.
Very true. Personally I don't have much issues with other counter units, except for the scenario of anti vehicle vs grizzlies.

Air needs a buff, not in it's damage, but how it interacts with air units
Sarano696 wrote:
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
That wasn't the main purpose of this post. However, his comment needs further context before we can get into a proper debate over counter unit effectiveness. However, I agree with his sentimentality about anti air
Cyclopses and hunters don't do much damage to infantry. However, they do decent damage structures and can at least pull their weight against infantry. I never hated having to build anti-vehicle, but I hate building AA. It's weak, does no damage to non-air, and the air blob I built the damn things for gets away half the time because AA is too slow or too weak to chase.
Very true. Personally I don't have much issues with other counter units, except for the scenario of anti vehicle vs grizzlies.

Air needs a buff, not in it's damage, but how it interacts with air units
What do you mean by "how it interacts?"
Sarano696 wrote:
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
That wasn't the main purpose of this post. However, his comment needs further context before we can get into a proper debate over counter unit effectiveness. However, I agree with his sentimentality about anti air
Cyclopses and hunters don't do much damage to infantry. However, they do decent damage structures and can at least pull their weight against infantry. I never hated having to build anti-vehicle, but I hate building AA. It's weak, does no damage to non-air, and the air blob I built the damn things for gets away half the time because AA is too slow or too weak to chase.
Very true. Personally I don't have much issues with other counter units, except for the scenario of anti vehicle vs grizzlies.

Air needs a buff, not in it's damage, but how it interacts with air units
What do you mean by "how it interacts?"
A)economy. By making the direct counter to air cost so much energy, it allows the opponent to easily texh and build a mass air army. And don't tell me to scout. It doesn't change that fact that 90 percent of every match I encounter air only enemies. It's all people want to do due to how cheap it is to go mass air compared to other units.

B) focus firing. Anti air shouldn't really focus fire, that's typically what causes air to win.
My problem with AA is that if they kill an unit or if they fly away any missil left on the air will miss, I think that letting their proyectiles cover a longer distance while tracking or giving them a AOE would be fine.

But AA is half of the problem, the other half is air itself, no leader power turns to be really punishing to it, Cryo bomb and EMP should be able to insta kill (on reality, but maybe justo a chance to do so for gameplay reasons), I think Banshees are no longer a big threat unless they're Decimus' or Colony's (I've seen more Banished players chosing Marauder cheese over air recently) but the same can't be said about Hornets, they hace not recived any nerf and you don't even have to mass them to be a threat, corner a Jerome player that surely got time for heroes and if he starts spamming Hornets he'll be able to push you back, if he starts with Hornets on early game he'll be able to corner you as well, without need to go full air.
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
...
I don't appreciate the implication. Still, I think you're wrong. Anti-vehicle is pretty good against structures, to the point where I never hate having to make them. But AA? Oh my god dude, it's so bad. Tanks at least I can use leader powers on, but since air is so fast, it can doge powers and outrun its counters 90% of the time.
Anti-Vehicles currently do close to the same Dps as AA against Buildings, this has been tested already.
Also core infantry can actually do more base damage then Anti-Vehicles.
Its almost useless to build Anti-Vehicles against anything thats not core vehicles because tanks beat them.
(not that matters because tanks suck in general)
The same goes for AA its useless outside of beating air.

This isnt a debate, its a fact.
At this point im just teachings you the game.
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