Skip to main content

Forums / Games / Halo Wars Series

Why do AA units suck so much? (Air not OP)

OP Sarano696

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. ...
  7. 7
As an onyx/champ player and a season 3 and 4 air spammer, let me put a few things out there. Some of you all prob know all of this already, for the rest of you:
1) 5-7 min into the game you see double air pad? Think about how to slow down the spam. By then your opponent is only going to have a few banshees, try to kill a few early to make him spend even more money on replacing those. When I used to spam air, if I lost my first 5-8 banshees early, getting air 3 took almost 5 min longer.
2) get to tech 2 and build AA and gauss warthogs "speedy unit to counter with"
3) Never just park your AA/warthogs or reavers/marauders under a banshee/hornet cloud, you have to make the air chase you, kinda like a dog on a leash. Stay on the edges of the air cloud, this way all of your AA will shoot at the air and only a few of the hornets/banshees will shoot at your AA army bc of their lack of visual range.
4) It is so important to out produce someone that is spamming. You can't let them build extra bases and take all the power nodes. Since they probably went for a quick tech 2 and made air, that means they didn't take the time to take nodes.
5) anti air turrets and the upgrade in the war council for your base defense and turrets is a must. Don't leave your bases until you get this upgraded at last once.
6) Counter! Whenever you do kill some air, take advantage and try to take supply pads out, base expansions, mini bases, suffocate your opponent. I promise they will eventually run out of supplies and their hornet/banshee spam will slow down.
7) all that being said, decimus's banshees are a pain in the -Yoink- to go against. His passive leaders make his air spam far more difficult to kill. Tip 3) is so important when you face decimus to keep moving at all times "dog on a leash" bc if you park your army underneath his air cloud, every one of your units will get vortexed and siphoned to smitherines.

Good luck banshee hunting
I think this has always been an issue
I think a very slight buff to AA at tier three would help late game air controlling the map. The late game leader powers can really mop up some AA leaving the air to be free and dominate very often. Maybe a slight power cost reduction and a small upgrade to movement speed or something to tier three AA.
I think a very slight buff to AA at tier three would help late game air controlling the map. The late game leader powers can really mop up some AA leaving the air to be free and dominate very often. Maybe a slight power cost reduction and a small upgrade to movement speed or something to tier three AA.
or maybe just nerf leader powers so they don't destroy large portions of armies...

Also an additional upgrade to AA should increase their DPS vs buildlings
Would a Tech 3 Reaver/Wolverine army beat a Tier 3 Banshee/Hornet army? That is the true question. If the result is no...then something is wrong here.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
Show
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not bump.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
Show
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not bump.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
Show
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not bump.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
Show
Would a Tech 3 Reaver/Wolverine army beat a Tier 3 Banshee/Hornet army? That is the true question. If the result is no...then something is wrong here.
I believe AA would win, especially with some good maneuvering of AA. But a few points to consider: Air can move away faster and on big maps, incredibly useful for air to just travel around and harass from base to base. Also the late game leader powers can really murder a large AA group. I just find it more difficult and more work to try to counter the air rather than just spamming air and flying around.
Would a Tech 3 Reaver/Wolverine army beat a Tier 3 Banshee/Hornet army? That is the true question. If the result is no...then something is wrong here.
Depends on the circumstances flyman. Same number of units? 10 banshees to 10 wolves? Wolves every time. Scenario A) If no leader powers, active or passive, are used and the armies stay still on top of each other max pop, 40 banshees to 30 wolves/reavers, id guess the air army bc it is 40 units to 30 units. Same said scenario, but if the air army can focus fire the AA, then the air army wins with ease with enough left over units to move on and destroy you. Scenario B) if the banshees can focus fire and move and so can the AA, I'd pick the AA every time if the player knew how to micro correctly. Banshee bombs dont lock onto the AA, the wolves/reavers do lock on, so the AA army doesn't lose any dps while micro-ing around during the fight. It is imperative that the AA army move and try to avoid the banshee shots letting them hit the ground while every missile launched from the AA hits the air army. Replacing banshees gets expensive late game but if the supplies are flowing in (3 bases, 2 mini bases, 4-5 air pads)you are in for a 90 min long stalemate game. I avoid those by mixing in some speedy units to counter with while my opponent replenishes their air army. Gauss hogs, marauders, even locusts mixed in will help you take the map back and slowly pick away at your opponent's buildings. I would do everything i could to keep my opponent from getting to air 3, 120 pop, 40 banshees. If that happens often, I'd look more at changing my build order and what i did the first 10 min of the game that allowed my opponent all that freedom to build up 40 air 3 upgraded banshees.
Sarano696 wrote:
As an onyx/champ player and a season 3 and 4 air spammer, let me put a few things out there. Some of you all prob know all of this already, for the rest of you:
1) 5-7 min into the game you see double air pad? Think about how to slow down the spam. By then your opponent is only going to have a few banshees, try to kill a few early to make him spend even more money on replacing those. When I used to spam air, if I lost my first 5-8 banshees early, getting air 3 took almost 5 min longer.
2) get to tech 2 and build AA and gauss warthogs "speedy unit to counter with"
3) Never just park your AA/warthogs or reavers/marauders under a banshee/hornet cloud, you have to make the air chase you, kinda like a dog on a leash. Stay on the edges of the air cloud, this way all of your AA will shoot at the air and only a few of the hornets/banshees will shoot at your AA army bc of their lack of visual range.
4) It is so important to out produce someone that is spamming. You can't let them build extra bases and take all the power nodes. Since they probably went for a quick tech 2 and made air, that means they didn't take the time to take nodes.
5) anti air turrets and the upgrade in the war council for your base defense and turrets is a must. Don't leave your bases until you get this upgraded at last once.
6) Counter! Whenever you do kill some air, take advantage and try to take supply pads out, base expansions, mini bases, suffocate your opponent. I promise they will eventually run out of supplies and their hornet/banshee spam will slow down.
7) all that being said, decimus's banshees are a pain in the -Yoink- to go against. His passive leaders make his air spam far more difficult to kill. Tip 3) is so important when you face decimus to keep moving at all times "dog on a leash" bc if you park your army underneath his air cloud, every one of your units will get vortexed and siphoned to smitherines.

Good luck banshee hunting
I appreciate the advice, but most of this just doesn't seem feasible or hasn't worked when I've tried. No matter what I do, my opponent has never been stupid enough to chase the counters. He just flies away to destroy another base of mine while I waddle after him with reavers or while my wolves get shredded by literally anything not on wings. One well placed power will red bar an AA group. Not fo mention my opponent, even if I do shut off his air spam early, loses nothing but a few supplies while I'm out a ton of power and only slightly less supply.
If you are playing as banished I'd try getting to tech 2 making two vehicle pads and a few locusts/reavers or marauders. 3-4 reavers is all you need vs 6-10 lvl 1 banshees. After killing a few banshees move forward to take out their expansion base while you make a second base. This all takes place 6-10 min into the game. I can't stress how important it is to keep your opponent from building a second base especially if they want to spam units. Stay aggressive sarano, good luck!
DA Cleric wrote:
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
That wasn't the main purpose of this post. However, his comment needs further context before we can get into a proper debate over counter unit effectiveness. However, I agree with his sentimentality about anti air
I agree with this post, just beware, a lot of the 'top players' think anti air is in a 'fine spot' and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it (especially wolverines) in their eyes. But, I do think anti air sucks for how much energy it costs. The other thing about core air... (which I have posted about numerous times and don't want to rehash) is the core air can be upgraded seamlessly while you eat up a lot of your yellow resources by producing anti air. So, it can prove difficult to have level 3 wolverines en-mass to counter a large pop of core air level 3 since the air has the upgrade advantage.

Counters are generally T2 units, and should shred the opponents T2 units that they intend to counter. While I think the wolverine interaction against T3 air is pretty solid, and even their interaction with condors... there is a problem in my eyes against T2 units (for both anti vehicle and anti air). Mauraders, warthogs, hornets, and banshees can bowl over their hard counters later in the game either with head on engagements or hit and run with air.
I do agree AA is fine. If I build 8 reavers or 40 pop, they can destroy every spammed hornet or banshee without base shield being torn to shreds. I'll only agree wolfs need just a bit more health and reavers and wolfs should cost less power. AA counters very well against air units but your problem might be more because of nuke abilities which do indeed destroy AA rather than air itself on a large scale so watch out for those leader powers.
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
...
I don't appreciate the implication. Still, I think you're wrong. Anti-vehicle is pretty good against structures, to the point where I never hate having to make them. But AA? Oh my god dude, it's so bad. Tanks at least I can use leader powers on, but since air is so fast, it can doge powers and outrun its counters 90% of the time.
Anti-Vehicles currently do close to the same Dps as AA against Buildings, this has been tested already.
Also core infantry can actually do more base damage then Anti-Vehicles.
Its almost useless to build Anti-Vehicles against anything thats not core vehicles because tanks beat them.
(not that matters because tanks suck in general)
The same goes for AA its useless outside of beating air.

This isnt a debate, its a fact.
At this point im just teachings you the game.
AA does not suck and is the best way to kill air with only 1\3 pop to their air army. Air is exspensive to power but they are usually worth it if you can prevent them being nuked, blown by Cyclopes, Tanks, Marines, and Banished counterpart; you will do fine. AA is also like Kodiaks in a way as they shoot missles to air units outside their sight range so keep them away from your main army or defend them with leader abilities and they will pay you back with shredded air.
Build a mixed army comp, don't double down on pure anti air and you will be fine. A lot of banished players still run locusts and reavers just fine without much issue. On the other side of the coin, unsc usually comps cyclops, snipers, tanks, nightingales with a few wolves.
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
...
I don't appreciate the implication. Still, I think you're wrong. Anti-vehicle is pretty good against structures, to the point where I never hate having to make them. But AA? Oh my god dude, it's so bad. Tanks at least I can use leader powers on, but since air is so fast, it can doge powers and outrun its counters 90% of the time.
Anti-Vehicles currently do close to the same Dps as AA against Buildings, this has been tested already.
Also core infantry can actually do more base damage then Anti-Vehicles.
Its almost useless to build Anti-Vehicles against anything thats not core vehicles because tanks beat them.
(not that matters because tanks suck in general)
The same goes for AA its useless outside of beating air.

This isnt a debate, its a fact.
At this point im just teachings you the game.
AA does not suck and is the best way to kill air with only 1\3 pop to their air army. Air is exspensive to power but they are usually worth it if you can prevent them being nuked, blown by Cyclopes, Tanks, Marines, and Banished counterpart; you will do fine. AA is also like Kodiaks in a way as they shoot missles to air units outside their sight range so keep them away from your main army or defend them with leader abilities and they will pay you back with shredded air.
Like I've said earlier, the way they kill AA in a straight up fight is fine. But it's never that way. They run at the first sight and utilize their speed and maneuverability to go kill one of my bases while I'm forced to waddle after them or go and try to base trade, which I'll be severely limited in doing becuase a lot of my troops are useless AA vehicles that do no damage to anything except the army that flew away. Or, other fun time, is getting all my AA that I spent so much power and pop on nuked into oblivion by a single power. The system is broken, why should I be put at a disadvantage in Econ and army comp for having to counter a cheap, spam army?
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not bump.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
Show
Sarano696 wrote:
Build a mixed army comp, don't double down on pure anti air and you will be fine. A lot of banished players still run locusts and reavers just fine without much issue. On the other side of the coin, unsc usually comps cyclops, snipers, tanks, nightingales with a few wolves.
Then you'll lose twice as hard, because mass air swarms shred everything. The only way to beat them is with mass counters, since leader powers don't touch air 9 times out of ten. If you run 4 reavers and anything other than more reavers or your own mass air ball, you will lose the fight against a full air army.
If someone goes mass air, you don't need to mass AA yourself 40 pop should be fine and not a unit more. That means build at most 10 wolfs and 8 reavers at any time. The other 80 can go to core infantry and building killers. Just remember to keep your AA alive.
Sarano696 wrote:
Build a mixed army comp, don't double down on pure anti air and you will be fine. A lot of banished players still run locusts and reavers just fine without much issue. On the other side of the coin, unsc usually comps cyclops, snipers, tanks, nightingales with a few wolves.
Then you'll lose twice as hard, because mass air swarms shred everything. The only way to beat them is with mass counters, since leader powers don't touch air 9 times out of ten. If you run 4 reavers and anything other than more reavers or your own mass air ball, you will lose the fight against a full air army.
If someone goes mass air, you don't need to mass AA yourself 40 pop should be fine and not a unit more. That means build at most 10 wolfs and 8 reavers at any time. The other 80 can go to core infantry and building killers. Just remember to keep your AA alive.
That's impossible. AA have such low health that any leader power wipes them out or red bars them. In the meantime, air can pick off bases or trash your freshly red bar'd AA with ease
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
Build a mixed army comp, don't double down on pure anti air and you will be fine. A lot of banished players still run locusts and reavers just fine without much issue. On the other side of the coin, unsc usually comps cyclops, snipers, tanks, nightingales with a few wolves.
Then you'll lose twice as hard, because mass air swarms shred everything. The only way to beat them is with mass counters, since leader powers don't touch air 9 times out of ten. If you run 4 reavers and anything other than more reavers or your own mass air ball, you will lose the fight against a full air army.
If someone goes mass air, you don't need to mass AA yourself 40 pop should be fine and not a unit more. That means build at most 10 wolfs and 8 reavers at any time. The other 80 can go to core infantry and building killers. Just remember to keep your AA alive.
That's impossible. AA have such low health that any leader power wipes them out or red bars them. In the meantime, air can pick off bases or trash your freshly red bar'd AA with ease
You're not wrong here, but the only solution is to have mostly core units with just a few counters. So, if they're only going air, an army of core infantry with a couple wolves/reavers should do OK. The exception would be against Deci, because if he gets full air pop it can easily be gg.
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. ...
  7. 7