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Why do AA units suck so much? (Air not OP)

OP Sarano696

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Sarano696 wrote:
All the correct answers have been provided in this post by MAXIMUS8390
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/38bd6e2ebbb14e5b9b359bb029588800/topics/why-do-aa-units-suck-so-much/022749b7-b31c-4c20-9c3f-2a41c5775acf/posts?page=2#post21

If it doesn't work for you, it's a good idea to look at your fundamentals (spending, build order, basic micro, scouting, map vision, map control, map awareness), seeing as the higher level players don't struggle with air.
I'm in Onyx, I'm not an idiot. While Maximus was very helpful, a lot of the pros are either mass air spammers themselves or hardcore rushers to the point where air is irrelevant. And a lot of them don't even play past placement matches, since the CSR climb is damn near impossible and placement is near hereditary
Pros are air spammers? I suggest you look at Yoda's stream before you make a statement like that.
So one pro isn't a complete joke, and? I also said rushers, you left that out.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not bump.
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Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
All the correct answers have been provided in this post by MAXIMUS8390
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/38bd6e2ebbb14e5b9b359bb029588800/topics/why-do-aa-units-suck-so-much/022749b7-b31c-4c20-9c3f-2a41c5775acf/posts?page=2#post21

If it doesn't work for you, it's a good idea to look at your fundamentals (spending, build order, basic micro, scouting, map vision, map control, map awareness), seeing as the higher level players don't struggle with air.
I'm in Onyx, I'm not an idiot. While Maximus was very helpful, a lot of the pros are either mass air spammers themselves or hardcore rushers to the point where air is irrelevant. And a lot of them don't even play past placement matches, since the CSR climb is damn near impossible and placement is near hereditary
Pros are air spammers? I suggest you look at Yoda's stream before you make a statement like that.
So one pro isn't a complete joke, and? I also said rushers, you left that out.
If you look at Yoda's stream and even the BtC 2v2 finals you see how they rush (a stable in ANY RTS) and hold off a rush to transition into mid-game.

Watch the stream, you'll see no one winning with a rush
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
Do us a favor? Stay out of it next time, since you're just spouting nonsense. It's murder on the Econ to produce AA, especially for Banished. You can't expand since mass air has so much speed and structure damage you can guard one maybe two at most. You're stuck at one base and have to spend your saved power to get to tech two, pump out 3-4 AAs that get crushed by a leader power. It's a joke. And mass air is my best strategy, especially as Decimus. It's so easy and simple and I haven't had one match where I got super hard countered. I ball up air after repelling a rush because I just had to worry about whatever non-AA he had, since AA is negligible against everything non-air. After that I have total map control and my opponent can't expand because ever time he leaves his base I shoot it down.
Core infantry when upgraded beats core air. Mix in just a few aa, and you're fine.

Otherwise, put aa turrets up since air has the best mobility.

Add Me if you'd like to test it.
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
Please help me with this. Why are these units so bad? Even other counter units (which are pretty bad anyways, but that's another post) posses more utility and durability than anti-air. These units are expensive as hell, no health/pitiful shield, and do virtually no damage against ground units. Even hunters/clopses can serve as shock troopers and decent building damage, but anti-air really feels like shooting yourself in the foot just to counter a dumb blob of cheap spam who's speed forces you to either leave them to go kill one of your bases or have your anti-air chase them to the death (which will most likely be the deaths of the anti-air units since they get shredded by anything at all that doesn't fly). I get that mass-air isn't a massive issue anymore, at least in singles, but this still feels like a problem.
I really didn't want to get involved in the 300th rendition of this post.
1. In reality AA is not more expensive then air. If you're building AA you have the supply to build 4 gens. Your argument that AA is to expensive is just wrong. You have to balance your eco.
2. There is a triangle for hw2. Infantry beats air, air beats vehicle and vehicles beat Infantry (Core units) you can easily have 5-6 grunts/Marines and 2-3 wolves/reavers by 6 min. Core Infantry does beat air. This is vital! You have to build core infantry.
3. Passives do push air over the edge (Decimus) I may be wrong here but I believe that the active siphon is to strong when put on banshees. Otherwise the passives aren't to bad.
4. You gotta be aggressive when you see air pads. Air is so so weak from 5-10 min. If you have your core infantry and AA you should easily beat the air.
5. I don't know what your talking about when you say leader powers can't hit air. Hunters Brand? Emp Mac?

I took the time to type this out to try and help. Try being on both sides. Try to mass air and see how weak it is early on. It's a steep learning curve but you'll get it.
Do us a favor? Stay out of it next time, since you're just spouting nonsense. It's murder on the Econ to produce AA, especially for Banished. You can't expand since mass air has so much speed and structure damage you can guard one maybe two at most. You're stuck at one base and have to spend your saved power to get to tech two, pump out 3-4 AAs that get crushed by a leader power. It's a joke. And mass air is my best strategy, especially as Decimus. It's so easy and simple and I haven't had one match where I got super hard countered. I ball up air after repelling a rush because I just had to worry about whatever non-AA he had, since AA is negligible against everything non-air. After that I have total map control and my opponent can't expand because ever time he leaves his base I shoot it down.
Wow. I didn't realize you were this big of an idiot. I was gonna take it easy on you, but you brought this upon yourself. Lets take a look at the service records shall we? You have 48 more games played than me, yet I have a much higher win percentage and have been in champ. While I realize this probably means nothing to you, this indicates that I have been more successful and have played higher skilled players than yourself. I point this out to try and help show that I am not in fact spouting out nonsense.

There have been numerous other much higher skilled players than I that have told you you're wrong. Apparently you don't know how eco works in this game. Generators produce power and supply pads produce supply. I know amazing right? When your not spamming units that are supply heavy you have enough supply to buy 4 generators. Yes 4 generators. Amazing right? That easily gives you enough power to produce whatever you want.

Both AA and air are tech 2 units. Might want to write that down, I'd hate for you to forget it. Tech 2 costs 1000 power, write that down too. Most people get tech 2 at 3-5 mins and get there expo up soon after. I know for a fact that at 6 mins I can have a expo with 3-5 AA, 6-7 core Infantry units and either warthogs or more infantry. The "air spammer" will have like 8-10 banshees and most likely won't have map control.

You can easily scout the tech up and take map control. Guess what map control gives you? That's right more power. Just saying eco is not a problem.

You literally made a post, stuck your head in the ground and refused to listen to people trying to help. What's more is that you decided to attack people for trying to help you. Do everyone a favor and get off the forums.
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
Please help me with this. Why are these units so bad? Even other counter units (which are pretty bad anyways, but that's another post) posses more utility and durability than anti-air.
Do us a favor? Stay out of it next time, since you're just spouting nonsense. It's murder on the Econ to produce AA, especially for Banished. You can't expand since mass air has so much speed and structure damage you can guard one maybe two at most. You're stuck at one base and have to spend your saved power to get to tech two, pump out 3-4 AAs that get crushed by a leader power. It's a joke. And mass air is my best strategy, especially as Decimus. It's so easy and simple and I haven't had one match where I got super hard countered. I ball up air after repelling a rush because I just had to worry about whatever non-AA he had, since AA is negligible against everything non-air. After that I have total map control and my opponent can't expand because ever time he leaves his base I shoot it down.
DC Longshot
Sad Joker95
FungusUCantKill

Add us. We would love to test out your unfounded idea that AA can't take on air. Try it against each of us. If you can beat any of us with mass air we would gladly come back to this thread and share the results. For the sake of the game let's try this out. We can even share the gameplay so everyone can see exactly how mass air stands up against it's counter.
Going through your recent games Sarano... you obviously have a lot more to worry about than just air and AA.
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
Please help me with this. Why are these units so bad? Even other counter units (which are pretty bad anyways, but that's another post) posses more utility and durability than anti-air. These units are expensive as hell, no health/pitiful shield, and do virtually no damage against ground units. Even hunters/clopses can serve as shock troopers and decent building damage, but anti-air really feels like shooting yourself in the foot just to counter a dumb blob of cheap spam who's speed forces you to either leave them to go kill one of your bases or have your anti-air chase them to the death (which will most likely be the deaths of the anti-air units since they get shredded by anything at all that doesn't fly). I get that mass-air isn't a massive issue anymore, at least in singles, but this still feels like a problem.
I really didn't want to get involved in the 300th rendition of this post.
1. In reality AA is not more expensive then air. If you're building AA you have the supply to build 4 gens. Your argument that AA is to expensive is just wrong. You have to balance your eco.
2. There is a triangle for hw2. Infantry beats air, air beats vehicle and vehicles beat Infantry (Core units) you can easily have 5-6 grunts/Marines and 2-3 wolves/reavers by 6 min. Core Infantry does beat air. This is vital! You have to build core infantry.
3. Passives do push air over the edge (Decimus) I may be wrong here but I believe that the active siphon is to strong when put on banshees. Otherwise the passives aren't to bad.
4. You gotta be aggressive when you see air pads. Air is so so weak from 5-10 min. If you have your core infantry and AA you should easily beat the air.
5. I don't know what your talking about when you say leader powers can't hit air. Hunters Brand? Emp Mac?

I took the time to type this out to try and help. Try being on both sides. Try to mass air and see how weak it is early on. It's a steep learning curve but you'll get it.
Do us a favor? Stay out of it next time, since you're just spouting nonsense. It's murder on the Econ to produce AA, especially for Banished. You can't expand since mass air has so much speed and structure damage you can guard one maybe two at most. You're stuck at one base and have to spend your saved power to get to tech two, pump out 3-4 AAs that get crushed by a leader power. It's a joke. And mass air is my best strategy, especially as Decimus. It's so easy and simple and I haven't had one match where I got super hard countered. I ball up air after repelling a rush because I just had to worry about whatever non-AA he had, since AA is negligible against everything non-air. After that I have total map control and my opponent can't expand because ever time he leaves his base I shoot it down.
Unless i'm playing yap , never will I have a problem with a mass air transition and never pure air and exspansion early game. Air is honestly not the problem here. If I decided the build mass air, kill my ecomony and slow me down. They are exspensive and slow to build so this gives you early striking advantage. Even late game air is not cheap and If someone was able to mass full air, you sat at your base waiting for them.
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
Please help me with this. Why are these units so bad? Even other counter units (which are pretty bad anyways, but that's another post) posses more utility and durability than anti-air. These units are expensive as hell, no health/pitiful shield, and do virtually no damage against ground units. Even hunters/clopses can serve as shock troopers and decent building damage, but anti-air really feels like shooting yourself in the foot just to counter a dumb blob of cheap spam who's speed forces you to either leave them to go kill one of your bases or have your anti-air chase them to the death (which will most likely be the deaths of the anti-air units since they get shredded by anything at all that doesn't fly). I get that mass-air isn't a massive issue anymore, at least in singles, but this still feels like a problem.
I really didn't want to get involved in the 300th rendition of this post.
1. In reality AA is not more expensive then air. If you're building AA you have the supply to build 4 gens. Your argument that AA is to expensive is just wrong. You have to balance your eco.
2. There is a triangle for hw2. Infantry beats air, air beats vehicle and vehicles beat Infantry (Core units) you can easily have 5-6 grunts/Marines and 2-3 wolves/reavers by 6 min. Core Infantry does beat air. This is vital! You have to build core infantry.
3. Passives do push air over the edge (Decimus) I may be wrong here but I believe that the active siphon is to strong when put on banshees. Otherwise the passives aren't to bad.
4. You gotta be aggressive when you see air pads. Air is so so weak from 5-10 min. If you have your core infantry and AA you should easily beat the air.
5. I don't know what your talking about when you say leader powers can't hit air. Hunters Brand? Emp Mac?

I took the time to type this out to try and help. Try being on both sides. Try to mass air and see how weak it is early on. It's a steep learning curve but you'll get it.
Do us a favor? Stay out of it next time, since you're just spouting nonsense. It's murder on the Econ to produce AA, especially for Banished. You can't expand since mass air has so much speed and structure damage you can guard one maybe two at most. You're stuck at one base and have to spend your saved power to get to tech two, pump out 3-4 AAs that get crushed by a leader power. It's a joke. And mass air is my best strategy, especially as Decimus. It's so easy and simple and I haven't had one match where I got super hard countered. I ball up air after repelling a rush because I just had to worry about whatever non-AA he had, since AA is negligible against everything non-air. After that I have total map control and my opponent can't expand because ever time he leaves his base I shoot it down.
Unless i'm playing yap , never will I have a problem with a mass air transition and never pure air and exspansion early game. Air is honestly not the problem here. If I decided the build mass air, kill my ecomony and slow me down. They are exspensive and slow to build so this gives you early striking advantage. Even late game air is not cheap and If someone was able to mass full air, you sat at your base waiting for them.
Even YapYap doesn't have an issue against air! His heavy grunts annihilate early air. Add a few Methane Wagons and there's nothing air can do against them.
Before continuing this argument, please read this post for why I think Air is not OP
Sarano696 wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
Please help me with this. Why are these units so bad? Even other counter units (which are pretty bad anyways, but that's another post) posses more utility and durability than anti-air. These units are expensive as hell, no health/pitiful shield, and do virtually no damage against ground units. Even hunters/clopses can serve as shock troopers and decent building damage, but anti-air really feels like shooting yourself in the foot just to counter a dumb blob of cheap spam who's speed forces you to either leave them to go kill one of your bases or have your anti-air chase them to the death (which will most likely be the deaths of the anti-air units since they get shredded by anything at all that doesn't fly). I get that mass-air isn't a massive issue anymore, at least in singles, but this still feels like a problem.
I really didn't want to get involved in the 300th rendition of this post.
1. In reality AA is not more expensive then air. If you're building AA you have the supply to build 4 gens. Your argument that AA is to expensive is just wrong. You have to balance your eco.
2. There is a triangle for hw2. Infantry beats air, air beats vehicle and vehicles beat Infantry (Core units) you can easily have 5-6 grunts/Marines and 2-3 wolves/reavers by 6 min. Core Infantry does beat air. This is vital! You have to build core infantry.
3. Passives do push air over the edge (Decimus) I may be wrong here but I believe that the active siphon is to strong when put on banshees. Otherwise the passives aren't to bad.
4. You gotta be aggressive when you see air pads. Air is so so weak from 5-10 min. If you have your core infantry and AA you should easily beat the air.
5. I don't know what your talking about when you say leader powers can't hit air. Hunters Brand? Emp Mac?

I took the time to type this out to try and help. Try being on both sides. Try to mass air and see how weak it is early on. It's a steep learning curve but you'll get it.
Do us a favor? Stay out of it next time, since you're just spouting nonsense. It's murder on the Econ to produce AA, especially for Banished. You can't expand since mass air has so much speed and structure damage you can guard one maybe two at most. You're stuck at one base and have to spend your saved power to get to tech two, pump out 3-4 AAs that get crushed by a leader power. It's a joke. And mass air is my best strategy, especially as Decimus. It's so easy and simple and I haven't had one match where I got super hard countered. I ball up air after repelling a rush because I just had to worry about whatever non-AA he had, since AA is negligible against everything non-air. After that I have total map control and my opponent can't expand because ever time he leaves his base I shoot it down.
Unless i'm playing yap , never will I have a problem with a mass air transition and never pure air and exspansion early game. Air is honestly not the problem here. If I decided the build mass air, kill my ecomony and slow me down. They are exspensive and slow to build so this gives you early striking advantage. Even late game air is not cheap and If someone was able to mass full air, you sat at your base waiting for them.
Even YapYap doesn't have an issue against air! His heavy grunts annihilate early air. Add a few Methane Wagons and there's nothing air can do against them.
That is most true as through he has problem with early game eco to build AA, he also has THE BEST infantry to counter air. I was speaking for indirectly the fact his eco can set him a bit ways back to defend main from banshees and hornets due to no direct air usually possible so. They are so great in a direct engagements, they are the only infanty i feel completely comfortable against Condor for also having party time.
Eh, i'd just go with Marines over Wolverines any day for AA. Cause they are also good for ground fights. Plus they don't cost any energy, just supplies.
Eh, i'd just go with Marines over Wolverines any day for AA. Cause they are also good for ground fights. Plus they don't cost any energy, just supplies.
I love core infantry as the next but there are times AA is a must such as base attacks. They can and simple will kite your army to destroy your base and fully upgraded turrets are not enough to stop large air numbers.
Sarano696 wrote:
I JG Fox I wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
That wasn't the main purpose of this post. However, his comment needs further context before we can get into a proper debate over counter unit effectiveness. However, I agree with his sentimentality about anti air
Cyclopses and hunters don't do much damage to infantry. However, they do decent damage structures and can at least pull their weight against infantry. I never hated having to build anti-vehicle, but I hate building AA. It's weak, does no damage to non-air, and the air blob I built the damn things for gets away half the time because AA is too slow or too weak to chase.
Very true. Personally I don't have much issues with other counter units, except for the scenario of anti vehicle vs grizzlies.

Air needs a buff, not in it's damage, but how it interacts with air units
What do you mean by "how it interacts?"
A)economy. By making the direct counter to air cost so much energy, it allows the opponent to easily texh and build a mass air army. And don't tell me to scout. It doesn't change that fact that 90 percent of every match I encounter air only enemies. It's all people want to do due to how cheap it is to go mass air compared to other units.

B) focus firing. Anti air shouldn't really focus fire, that's typically what causes air to win.
You do know that banshees cost way more then wolverines or reavers right. Which makes banshees easy to counter
Banshees cost nothing to make. They cost 300 supply, that's nothing. If you mean purely in the realm of resources, sure, but wolves cost supply and 190 power, reavers are 225 power. That's super expensive. Like... what are you even saying?
Reavers are 175/225 unless they changed it since I last remember. So your saying banshees which is 3 pop for 300/0 supply is cheap? that's 100/0 per population vs the 35/45 per pop with Reavers. Lets see 12 pop of banshees would be 1200/0 supply, 12 pop of Reavers would be 420/540. The thing is you have two types of resources so the fact that AA splits the cost between supplies and power makes them even cheaper. If it wasn't split 35+45=80 per pop. Your saying banshees are not expensive I'm not seeing it. Maybe pop isn't important to you? so instead of 12pop vs 12 lets say 4 banshees vs 4 Reavers. You would have to run away because the Reavers would crush you. as for full pop banshees that would be 12,000/0 vs 4,200/5,400. How about I say you have 5000/5000 resources and I do too. You would be able to make 16 banshees vs my 22 Reavers. Reavers and Wolverines are way cheaper so is almost every single unit in this game because banshees is one of the most expensive units like I said. Look at a scarab 50/50 or a hunter 32/32... It's always better to split the resources just imagine banshees cost at 150/150 that would be CRAZY! and the banshee spam would be way cheaper at 50/50.
I JG Fox I wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
I JG Fox I wrote:
Sarano696 wrote:
the other counters are fine
He knows. He is talking about another air specifically
No he isn't . He was talking about the other counters being also bad
Dude, reread it. He is saying how other counter units can do more than just counter. Anti air does only that. Counter air.
That was my second guess but he was saying in parenthesis that the other counters were pretty bad too
That wasn't the main purpose of this post. However, his comment needs further context before we can get into a proper debate over counter unit effectiveness. However, I agree with his sentimentality about anti air
Cyclopses and hunters don't do much damage to infantry. However, they do decent damage structures and can at least pull their weight against infantry. I never hated having to build anti-vehicle, but I hate building AA. It's weak, does no damage to non-air, and the air blob I built the damn things for gets away half the time because AA is too slow or too weak to chase.
Very true. Personally I don't have much issues with other counter units, except for the scenario of anti vehicle vs grizzlies.

Air needs a buff, not in it's damage, but how it interacts with air units
What do you mean by "how it interacts?"
A)economy. By making the direct counter to air cost so much energy, it allows the opponent to easily texh and build a mass air army. And don't tell me to scout. It doesn't change that fact that 90 percent of every match I encounter air only enemies. It's all people want to do due to how cheap it is to go mass air compared to other units.

B) focus firing. Anti air shouldn't really focus fire, that's typically what causes air to win.
You do know that banshees cost way more then wolverines or reavers right. Which makes banshees easy to counter
Banshees cost nothing to make. They cost 300 supply, that's nothing. If you mean purely in the realm of resources, sure, but wolves cost supply and 190 power, reavers are 225 power. That's super expensive. Like... what are you even saying?
Reavers are 175/225 unless they changed it since I last remember. So your saying banshees which is 3 pop for 300/0 supply is cheap? that's 100/0 per population vs the 35/45 per pop with Reavers. Lets see 12 pop of banshees would be 1200/0 supply, 12 pop of Reavers would be 420/540. The thing is you have two types of resources so the fact that AA splits the cost between supplies and power makes them even cheaper. If it wasn't split 35+45=80 per pop. Your saying banshees are not expensive I'm not seeing it. Maybe pop isn't important to you? so instead of 12pop vs 12 lets say 4 banshees vs 4 Reavers. You would have to run away because the Reavers would crush you. as for full pop banshees that would be 12,000/0 vs 4,200/5,400. How about I say you have 5000/5000 resources and I do too. You would be able to make 16 banshees vs my 22 Reavers. Reavers and Wolverines are way cheaper so is almost every single unit in this game because banshees is one of the most expensive units like I said. Look at a scarab 50/50 or a hunter 32/32... It's always better to split the resources just imagine banshees cost at 150/150 that would be CRAZY! and the banshee spam would be way cheaper at 50/50.
Bingo. Let's also not forget that a smaller population of AA can take on a larger population of air units; making them far more cost effective in this interaction.
Sarano696 wrote:
All the correct answers have been provided in this post by MAXIMUS8390
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/38bd6e2ebbb14e5b9b359bb029588800/topics/why-do-aa-units-suck-so-much/022749b7-b31c-4c20-9c3f-2a41c5775acf/posts?page=2#post21

If it doesn't work for you, it's a good idea to look at your fundamentals (spending, build order, basic micro, scouting, map vision, map control, map awareness), seeing as the higher level players don't struggle with air.
I'm in Onyx, I'm not an idiot. While Maximus was very helpful, a lot of the pros are either mass air spammers themselves or hardcore rushers to the point where air is irrelevant. And a lot of them don't even play past placement matches, since the CSR climb is damn near impossible and placement is near hereditary
I believe 75% of champions don't understand the game so... Either way which pros are you talking about because all the ones I know only do it in a few scenarios. and have belived banshees/hornet to be subpar ever since the release of the game.
Going mass air will leave you broke, especially when banshees cost 300 and die very quickly to enemy opposition early game.
I see you changed your title...

...good...good...let the hate flow through you..
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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Sarano696 wrote:
evils wrote:
I see you changed your title...

...good...good...let the hate flow through you..
Since no one is allowed to have an opinion that's correct except when the pros tell us, thought I'd update it
While I don't really like being talked down to and can understand your disappointment in some of the responses, and don't really agree with everything said on both sides of this thread... this topic is going off the rails and is devolving into something rather silly. While I don't whole-heartedly agree AA is in a good spot, I do appreciate the elaboration the other side has put forth and has given some food for thought. Some of the stances taken are rather childish on the side of the argument I am on. I hope at this point this thread gets locked. Pity. It started as a good conversation about air but has morphed into something rather pathetic. I still don't think AA is in the greatest spot and should be a little more functional, but I will take into consideration the points others have made.
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