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Wolverines Efficiency

OP GhosT ChieF II

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Anybody else have trouble using wolverines against armies of air units? Me and my friends tend to lose fights of full wolverines verses air unit armies. Especially if there's engineers and Nightingales in the armies.
Yes. Wolverines aren't as good as Reavers. They are also more vulnerable, lacking a Y ability. It doesn't help their odds that Air is a counter to all vehicles.
Yeah I just struggled in a match using Reavers, dude had a full air army but man I managed to break the turtle.
I find wolverines to be far better than reavers. They're more fragile and don't have the same dps, but their greatest advantage is their speed while reavers are slow as yoink.

Mass air is dangerous because of its ability to ignore any units on the field and just head straight to bases. Only wolverines are able to react so quickly, while their speed allows them to catch up to the air units if they're retreating. Plus, they can effectively kite air units without getting hit.
Dreiga wrote:
I find wolverines to be far better than reavers. They're more fragile and don't have the same dps, but their greatest advantage is their speed while reavers are slow as yoink.

Mass air is dangerous because of its ability to ignore any units on the field and just head straight to bases. Only wolverines are able to react so quickly, while their speed allows them to catch up to the air units if they're retreating. Plus, they can effectively kite air units without getting hit.
While faster, Wolverines are limited by terrain. Air can usually escape with low effect.

Wolverines cost Supplies and power while core air does not, allowing air to be upgraded easily to the point where it is better at killing its counter than its counter is at killing it, once factoring in the much higher burden of cost that Wolverines carry.

To keep up, you must sink an excessive amount of power into a unit that can only kill air, and not even that well. If your enemy stops going air, you've now got a useless unit.

For a much lower power investment you can have a fast, agile, and very dangerous unit that can fly across all terrain and at worst will only lose against a nearly equivalent force of its "hard" counter.

Wolverines need to more effectively deal with core air. They are an expensive hard counter, and aren't worth their weight in cost. Their speed doesn't make up for their lack of firepower or usefulness. They have one function, and don't serve it very well.

While scouting lets you see a Banshee mass coming, the only real way to deal with it is to attack your enemy before they can attack you, which isn't a counter, it's just fundamentals.
Dreiga wrote:
I find wolverines to be far better than reavers. They're more fragile and don't have the same dps, but their greatest advantage is their speed while reavers are slow as yoink.

Mass air is dangerous because of its ability to ignore any units on the field and just head straight to bases. Only wolverines are able to react so quickly, while their speed allows them to catch up to the air units if they're retreating. Plus, they can effectively kite air units without getting hit.
While faster, Wolverines are limited by terrain. Air can usually escape with low effect.

Wolverines cost Supplies and power while core air does not, allowing air to be upgraded easily to the point where it is better at killing its counter than its counter is at killing it, once factoring in the much higher burden of cost that Wolverines carry.

To keep up, you must sink an excessive amount of power into a unit that can only kill air, and not even that well. If your enemy stops going air, you've now got a useless unit.

For a much lower power investment you can have a fast, agile, and very dangerous unit that can fly across all terrain and at worst will only lose against a nearly equivalent force of its "hard" counter.

Wolverines need to more effectively deal with core air. They are an expensive hard counter, and aren't worth their weight in cost. Their speed doesn't make up for their lack of firepower or usefulness. They have one function, and don't serve it very well.

While scouting lets you see a Banshee mass coming, the only real way to deal with it is to attack your enemy before they can attack you, which isn't a counter, it's just fundamentals.
I agree with some of your points. Mass air, especially banshees are a low risk high reward investment, because of their high damage output against bases and their mobility.

Honestly, I still don't think core air per se is OP. During mid game, the enemy won't have much air units to begin with. If you scout properly, you should be able to harass his max 10 banshees with 3-4 wolverines/reavers and some grunts/marines, which is more than enough to deal with them.

The problem lies rather in late game imo. Let me tell you why:
1. Core infantry isn't really relevant anymore. While fully upgraded marines are still somewhat effective, grunts are just useless. I've never seen anyone fully upgrade them and they die too easily to other units to be used effectively against mass air. That leaves only reavers and wolverines to really counter air units.
2. Reavers are so slow it hurts. They can close the distance with their y ability but that's still not sufficient to make them react fast enough to mass air attacking your base or fleeing from your army.
3. Banshees become a hard counter for air with their plasma torpedo upgrade. That's dumb because it breaks the combat triangle and makes other air units useless against them.
4. Wolverines/Reavers don't get an additional T3 upgrade while core air does. That makes core air naturally stronger than necessary against its counters if fully upgraded

What can be done to fix this? I have a few suggestions on that:

1. Give core infantry a Y upgrade against air units with their final upgrade. Marines firing their bazooka and grunts firing a plasma caster or something.
2. Give reavers and wolverines a T3 unit specific upgrade. Y abilities or stat buffs to make them keep up with T3 core air.
3. Make heavy air (blisterbacks and vultures) hard counter core air. That would give especially vultures a purpose aside from last resort base cracking.

TL:DR: mass air isn't as bad as people make it seem to be because it can be countered quite easily in mid game and with proper micro and scouting. It gets problematic in late game because there are too few counters.

Oh and nothing of this applies to Decimus' banshees. They're borderline op imo and really need a nerf because they're absolutely overpowerering. And I say that as a Decimus main.
unless I missed a patch, reavers are performing badly
Dreiga wrote:
Dreiga wrote:
I find wolverines to be far better than reavers. They're more fragile and don't have the same dps, but their greatest advantage is their speed while reavers are slow as yoink.

Mass air is dangerous because of its ability to ignore any units on the field and just head straight to bases. Only wolverines are able to react so quickly, while their speed allows them to catch up to the air units if they're retreating. Plus, they can effectively kite air units without getting hit.
While faster, Wolverines are limited by terrain. Air can usually escape with low effect.

Wolverines cost Supplies and power while core air does not, allowing air to be upgraded easily to the point where it is better at killing its counter than its counter is at killing it, once factoring in the much higher burden of cost that Wolverines carry.

To keep up, you must sink an excessive amount of power into a unit that can only kill air, and not even that well. If your enemy stops going air, you've now got a useless unit.

For a much lower power investment you can have a fast, agile, and very dangerous unit that can fly across all terrain and at worst will only lose against a nearly equivalent force of its "hard" counter.

Wolverines need to more effectively deal with core air. They are an expensive hard counter, and aren't worth their weight in cost. Their speed doesn't make up for their lack of firepower or usefulness. They have one function, and don't serve it very well.

While scouting lets you see a Banshee mass coming, the only real way to deal with it is to attack your enemy before they can attack you, which isn't a counter, it's just fundamentals.
I agree with some of your points. Mass air, especially banshees are a low risk high reward investment, because of their high damage output against bases and their mobility.

Honestly, I still don't think core air per se is OP. During mid game, the enemy won't have much air units to begin with. If you scout properly, you should be able to harass his max 10 banshees with 3-4 wolverines/reavers and some grunts/marines, which is more than enough to deal with them.

The problem lies rather in late game imo. Let me tell you why:
1. Core infantry isn't really relevant anymore. While fully upgraded marines are still somewhat effective, grunts are just useless. I've never seen anyone fully upgrade them and they die too easily to other units to be used effectively against mass air. That leaves only reavers and wolverines to really counter air units.
2. Reavers are so slow it hurts. They can close the distance with their y ability but that's still not sufficient to make them react fast enough to mass air attacking your base or fleeing from your army.
3. Banshees become a hard counter for air with their plasma torpedo upgrade. That's dumb because it breaks the combat triangle and makes other air units useless against them.
4. Wolverines/Reavers don't get an additional T3 upgrade while core air does. That makes core air naturally stronger than necessary against its counters if fully upgraded

What can be done to fix this? I have a few suggestions on that:

1. Give core infantry a Y upgrade against air units with their final upgrade. Marines firing their bazooka and grunts firing a plasma caster or something.
2. Give reavers and wolverines a T3 unit specific upgrade. Y abilities or stat buffs to make them keep up with T3 core air.
3. Make heavy air (blisterbacks and vultures) hard counter core air. That would give especially vultures a purpose aside from last resort base cracking.

TL:DR: mass air isn't as bad as people make it seem to be because it can be countered quite easily in mid game and with proper micro and scouting. It gets problematic in late game because there are too few counters.

Oh and nothing of this applies to Decimus' banshees. They're borderline op imo and really need a nerf because they're absolutely overpowerering. And I say that as a Decimus main.
I generally agree. Late game it really shows problems. Wolves just don't punch hard enough before the air can escape (there is always terrain around bases that allows easy air to escape). In 3's there is always at least one player going mass air, and there isn't much you can do about it if being harassed by the other two players. I concur with you that air needs more counters late game... as the status that it is at right now (especially for UNSC) makes air very difficult to counter. For a unit that literally only has one function, anti-air, it only performs adequately mid game. I like your suggestions. Some of the expert players disagree but there is a reason a lot of players transition to core air by the 10-12 minute mark and start spamming them...
Wolverines and Reavers wreck air, I don't know what you guys are doing to lose in anti air vs air battles. The only thing that can be difficult in dealing with mass air is the fact that they have great speed and ignore terrain, allowing them to snipe bases before you can react on larger maps or maps with bases that are far apart (Vault, the northern bases in the corners on Sentry, etc). But fighting mass air head on shouldn't be a problem.
Wolverines and Reavers wreck air, I don't know what you guys are doing to lose in anti air vs air battles. The only thing that can be difficult in dealing with mass air is the fact that they have great speed and ignore terrain, allowing them to snipe bases before you can react on larger maps or maps with bases that are far apart (Vault, the northern bases in the corners on Sentry, etc). But fighting mass air head on shouldn't be a problem.
If they let you fight head on... maybe. But as you've mentioned, they'll snipe bases instead. They can base swap faster than you can, and while you're dumping power and supplies into counters they will only be spending supplies.

This allows them to either upgrade their air faster than you can upgrade your AA, or spend it on leader powers to wipe your AA.

The problem remains that core air is good all around but AA is explicitly AA. You can't kill a base with AA. Both wolverines and reavers cost more than either core air unit. Being forced into going high volume AA puts you at a massive disadvantage, which is strategy on the enemy's part, but currently IMO carries almost no risk for a high reward.
Wolverines and Reavers wreck air, I don't know what you guys are doing to lose in anti air vs air battles. The only thing that can be difficult in dealing with mass air is the fact that they have great speed and ignore terrain, allowing them to snipe bases before you can react on larger maps or maps with bases that are far apart (Vault, the northern bases in the corners on Sentry, etc). But fighting mass air head on shouldn't be a problem.
If they let you fight head on... maybe. But as you've mentioned, they'll snipe bases instead. They can base swap faster than you can, and while you're dumping power and supplies into counters they will only be spending supplies.

This allows them to either upgrade their air faster than you can upgrade your AA, or spend it on leader powers to wipe your AA.

The problem remains that core air is good all around but AA is explicitly AA. You can't kill a base with AA. Both wolverines and reavers cost more than either core air unit. Being forced into going high volume AA puts you at a massive disadvantage, which is strategy on the enemy's part, but currently IMO carries almost no risk for a high reward.
I'm a yes and no here. Just because wolves cost power too doesn't necessarily make them more expensive. If you have a solid eco running, it can be more effective to pump units that cost both s&p.
You're right tho, that air is easy to spam and tech-up. But, the consensus has always been that if you can scout air before it's massed, then you can deal with it. Plus, if they go all air, and you stop it with wolves (ideally upgraded), you're in the better position to push tanks/siege or whatever. Whereas, they will be in a bind because they put all of their eggs into the air basket.
Wolverines and Reavers wreck air, I don't know what you guys are doing to lose in anti air vs air battles. The only thing that can be difficult in dealing with mass air is the fact that they have great speed and ignore terrain, allowing them to snipe bases before you can react on larger maps or maps with bases that are far apart (Vault, the northern bases in the corners on Sentry, etc). But fighting mass air head on shouldn't be a problem.
If they let you fight head on... maybe. But as you've mentioned, they'll snipe bases instead. They can base swap faster than you can, and while you're dumping power and supplies into counters they will only be spending supplies.

This allows them to either upgrade their air faster than you can upgrade your AA, or spend it on leader powers to wipe your AA.

The problem remains that core air is good all around but AA is explicitly AA. You can't kill a base with AA. Both wolverines and reavers cost more than either core air unit. Being forced into going high volume AA puts you at a massive disadvantage, which is strategy on the enemy's part, but currently IMO carries almost no risk for a high reward.
I'm a yes and no here. Just because wolves cost power too doesn't necessarily make them more expensive. If you have a solid eco running, it can be more effective to pump units that cost both s&p.
You're right tho, that air is easy to spam and tech-up. But, the consensus has always been that if you can scout air before it's massed, then you can deal with it. Plus, if they go all air, and you stop it with wolves (ideally upgraded), you're in the better position to push tanks/siege or whatever. Whereas, they will be in a bind because they put all of their eggs into the air basket.
By "all their eggs" do you mean none of them? What does it take to go air? Supplies. What's it take to go AA? Supplies and lots of power. Power is the real commodity. As you burn power to counter, they can increase tech levels and are more readily available to drop leader powers on your AA.

If you stop a Banshee mass with Wolverines you will then be stuck with a large force of Wolverines - until they are killed at a later time - which until then are useless.

I don't see scouting as a counter because it's just scouting. Proper scouting can prevent anything and is a fundamental. The idea here is that massed Banshees don't have a proper counter - as I see it.
Wolverines and Reavers wreck air, I don't know what you guys are doing to lose in anti air vs air battles. The only thing that can be difficult in dealing with mass air is the fact that they have great speed and ignore terrain, allowing them to snipe bases before you can react on larger maps or maps with bases that are far apart (Vault, the northern bases in the corners on Sentry, etc). But fighting mass air head on shouldn't be a problem.
If they let you fight head on... maybe. But as you've mentioned, they'll snipe bases instead. They can base swap faster than you can, and while you're dumping power and supplies into counters they will only be spending supplies.

This allows them to either upgrade their air faster than you can upgrade your AA, or spend it on leader powers to wipe your AA.

The problem remains that core air is good all around but AA is explicitly AA. You can't kill a base with AA. Both wolverines and reavers cost more than either core air unit. Being forced into going high volume AA puts you at a massive disadvantage, which is strategy on the enemy's part, but currently IMO carries almost no risk for a high reward.
I'm a yes and no here. Just because wolves cost power too doesn't necessarily make them more expensive. If you have a solid eco running, it can be more effective to pump units that cost both s&p.
You're right tho, that air is easy to spam and tech-up. But, the consensus has always been that if you can scout air before it's massed, then you can deal with it. Plus, if they go all air, and you stop it with wolves (ideally upgraded), you're in the better position to push tanks/siege or whatever. Whereas, they will be in a bind because they put all of their eggs into the air basket.
The scouting theory may work in 1-1, but not in 3's. At least in my opinion.
DA Cleric wrote:
Wolverines and Reavers wreck air, I don't know what you guys are doing to lose in anti air vs air battles. The only thing that can be difficult in dealing with mass air is the fact that they have great speed and ignore terrain, allowing them to snipe bases before you can react on larger maps or maps with bases that are far apart (Vault, the northern bases in the corners on Sentry, etc). But fighting mass air head on shouldn't be a problem.
If they let you fight head on... maybe. But as you've mentioned, they'll snipe bases instead. They can base swap faster than you can, and while you're dumping power and supplies into counters they will only be spending supplies.

This allows them to either upgrade their air faster than you can upgrade your AA, or spend it on leader powers to wipe your AA.

The problem remains that core air is good all around but AA is explicitly AA. You can't kill a base with AA. Both wolverines and reavers cost more than either core air unit. Being forced into going high volume AA puts you at a massive disadvantage, which is strategy on the enemy's part, but currently IMO carries almost no risk for a high reward.
I'm a yes and no here. Just because wolves cost power too doesn't necessarily make them more expensive. If you have a solid eco running, it can be more effective to pump units that cost both s&p.
You're right tho, that air is easy to spam and tech-up. But, the consensus has always been that if you can scout air before it's massed, then you can deal with it. Plus, if they go all air, and you stop it with wolves (ideally upgraded), you're in the better position to push tanks/siege or whatever. Whereas, they will be in a bind because they put all of their eggs into the air basket.
The scouting theory may work in 1-1, but not in 3's. At least in my opinion.
I'm not sure I've even seen mass Banshees in 1v1. I'm not going to just sit back and let it happen, but in Team War it's a pretty different flow of events. It's definitely a Team War issue.
Wolverines range is garbage, for them to hit the unit they have to be almost outside of the air units attack range. Reavers can be really far away and do ALOT more damage. It's laughable how bad Wolverines are to me..
DA Cleric wrote:
Wolverines and Reavers wreck air, I don't know what you guys are doing to lose in anti air vs air battles. The only thing that can be difficult in dealing with mass air is the fact that they have great speed and ignore terrain, allowing them to snipe bases before you can react on larger maps or maps with bases that are far apart (Vault, the northern bases in the corners on Sentry, etc). But fighting mass air head on shouldn't be a problem.
If they let you fight head on... maybe. But as you've mentioned, they'll snipe bases instead. They can base swap faster than you can, and while you're dumping power and supplies into counters they will only be spending supplies.

This allows them to either upgrade their air faster than you can upgrade your AA, or spend it on leader powers to wipe your AA.

The problem remains that core air is good all around but AA is explicitly AA. You can't kill a base with AA. Both wolverines and reavers cost more than either core air unit. Being forced into going high volume AA puts you at a massive disadvantage, which is strategy on the enemy's part, but currently IMO carries almost no risk for a high reward.
I'm a yes and no here. Just because wolves cost power too doesn't necessarily make them more expensive. If you have a solid eco running, it can be more effective to pump units that cost both s&p.
You're right tho, that air is easy to spam and tech-up. But, the consensus has always been that if you can scout air before it's massed, then you can deal with it. Plus, if they go all air, and you stop it with wolves (ideally upgraded), you're in the better position to push tanks/siege or whatever. Whereas, they will be in a bind because they put all of their eggs into the air basket.
The scouting theory may work in 1-1, but not in 3's. At least in my opinion.
I'm not sure I've even seen mass Banshees in 1v1. I'm not going to just sit back and let it happen, but in Team War it's a pretty different flow of events. It's definitely a Team War issue.
Rudy, I am with you 100%. Anytime I bring this up, I am told scout and don't let them get to critical mass. Easier said than done when they are triple pumping air and picking off my wolverines, mini bases, main base structures... etc. The people that tell me this also transition to main air mid-late game... so they know air is very difficult to stop. Every main base on every map has an area where air can safely pull away without being chased by wolverines due to terrain issues. Wolverines don't pack enough punch before air pulls away. At least in HW1, if your wolverines caught the air, they would put a dent in the force before they could pull away... now you are lucky if you get 2-3 banshees before they fly off to a different base. I think it is easier in 1-1 to prevent the opponent from reaching critical mass, but in teams your attention is divided. And like you said, wolverines don't do jack against bases so an army composition with enough wolverines to turn away banshees is purely defensive and you cant win with them.
They were nerfed after the first game since they could have that volley ability to target barrage ground units and lay waste to anything in their way
Anti air seems fine to me.
Anti air seems fine to me.
Be careful, Metaloid. I've tried to make that point countless times, and many people simply told me I was wrong.

For some reason, many players believe that core air units are this unstoppable force, which is simply not the case.
Air is broken just like in the first hw but, atleast counters were counters back then.
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