Forums / Community / Halo Championship Series

HaloWC Oddball Preview Feedback Thread

OP Unyshek

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Since absolutely nothing I say in the private calls we HCS Professional players have with 343, or the surveys we take the time to fill out mean absolutely nothing I figured Hey! Why not come to the forums and try my luck here!!

Let me put this into perspective.

It’s blatantly obvious the BR and Gunfighter post-update are the worst thing to ever happen to Halo 5: Guardians which is sad to say because we were forced to compete with Assault Rifles and Radar for a year and a half ( LMAO ).

The BR post update is the equivalent of filming an action sequence for Hollywood with the amount of blanks I am consistently shooting. The Gunfighter is honestly just super cheesy to use. It’s almost the same as shooting a semi-automatic SMG. Lol.

I tested these settings for DAYS with a wide variety of highly skills players, and also players who were also not near as skilled. No matter what group, it progressively felt worse game by game. At first it felt alright, but over time it became so obvious that this is the farthest thing Halo 5 needed.

This timing was beyond unnecessary in the first place. We finally had gotten to a point in competitive Halo ( I’m talking HCS and tournament play, nothing to do with other playlists ) where the settings actually made sense. The settings we were using pre-update were the most balanced game we had played since launch. Why change it? I don’t know. Doesn’t make sense.

This argument that the Pistol is now over powered is just absurd. The pistol is the most balanced weapon in the game. The only reason it seems “overpowered” is because they randomly decide to change the BR and DMR into literal NERF weapons.

EVEN SO, weapons tuned or not, I don’t see the issue in having Pistol starts with minimal weapons placed on the map. The most successful Halo has been in competitive history is during Halo 3 in which we had MLG running things.

There was a total of six weapons:
Battle Rifle ( Start )
Sniper Rifle
Rocket Launcher
Mauler
Plasma Pistol
Sword ( On Heretic )

Why is it such a hard concept to grasp that we don’t need all these corny weapons in competitive play?
It just doesn’t make sense to have things like a Shotgun, Scattershot, or any sort of Automatic weapon in competitive play.

Realistically the competitive settings should be Pistol starts, with tier-2 Light Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Rockets, maybe a Sword with no speed boost, and maybe a Plasma Caster. Some weapons are are debatable like the sword, PC, shotgun, scatter, whatever. That could easily be worked out.

No community is remotely pleased with this update to say the least whether it be the Slayer kids, Doubles kids, HCS players, etc. If people are to be pleased, separate the competitive settings from the rest.

I’m not trying to sound entitled in the slightest but I’m honestly just stating obvious facts.

This will be my last and only attempt to speak out. I’ve made it clearly obvious on twitter what needs to be done whether or not I have gone about it in the right way.

I am UNBELIEVABLY tired of myself and the rest of the HCS community being unheard. It has been like this for over two years. Enough is enough honestly. Start listening, or the HCS will be dead. It’s plain and simple.

I am unbelievably grateful to have been able to compete in the HCS but this has just gone too far.

I will not be responding any further on the forum so if you’d like to respond to what I have to say, please tweet at me @Spartan. Thanks
Ole George wrote:
I just read a supposed tweet from a 343 employee saying that the magnum will never be the starting weapon in HCS again. Everyone I have read tweets from or spoke with does not want these changes to take place. If this is a fact I can say this with almost absolute certainty, 343 will officially put the final nail in the coffin that is competitive H5. You will lose a major percentage of your player base, including myself which will be a first for me going back 14 years. I am REALLY hoping that this is not the case. Please for the love of your loyal player base please don't let this be!

Mikwen and Snipedowns post on the matter below (sorry I don't know why they aren't clickable links)

https://twitter.com/Mikwen/status/933153792098537472

https://twitter.com/EDWSnip3down/status/933172428980682752
please link me the 343 employees tweet i need to see this lmao
Bandit ORR wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
I hear a lot about the BR's spread. Just to be clear, the spread on the BR now is still historically no higher than some of the most competitive past Halos. Because it's still low, I have a hard time with the argument that it isn't competitive. Past Halos with just as high or higher a BR spread were still considered quite competitive. It’s harder to use now for sure, but I think that should make it more competitive, not less. In addition, the stats are still showing a clear skill ceiling on that BR. Better players are definitely winning vs. worse ones.
I haven't seen anyone actually argue that the new BR "isn't competitive." People are concerned that introducing random spread into the game makes it less competitive, and there's the obvious concerns about sweep shotting for headshots that have always existed with the BR. But, no one is saying that it has no skill gap at all. This is a strawman.

Bringing up past Halos is irrelevant. The failures of past Halos do not justify the failures of the current Halo game.
I agree with bandit. it may be unlikely but scenarios of random spread costing a game are gonna pop up. Also halo 5 has sprint, thrust and slide (and thrust slide) this makes tracking with a burst spread equivalent to h2 or 3 much different because of the speed at which the target can be moving. So that argument doesn't really stand. however its not the time of spread most people are worried about its the randomness (that and the awkwardness and IMO the over-nerfed TTK). Regardless the br is just not enjoyable to use in its current state. Your game needs to be fun if you wanna maintain a player base. You can't just sacrifice that for supposed competitive adjustments.
ZaedynFel wrote:
The BR’s SpreadI hear a lot about the BR's spread. Just to be clear, the spread on the BR now is still historically no higher than some of the most competitive past Halos. Because it's still low, I have a hard time with the argument that it isn't competitive. Past Halos with just as high or higher a BR spread were still considered quite competitive. It’s harder to use now for sure, but I think that should make it more competitive, not less. In addition, the stats are still showing a clear skill ceiling on that BR. Better players are definitely winning vs. worse ones.
Dr. Menke, you have to keep in mind that past halos that had a higher br spread, did not have sprint nor thrust pack either. This deserves consideration while you're reviewing the data you have collected.

I'm going to attempt to construct a forge map that will be a shooting range with meter markings if possible. Once finished I'll be able to test each weapon and have a better sense of each weapon's effective range to further inform the teams at 343i and the community. Stay Tuned!
On-topic with some of the above discussions about how changes are communicated and justified to us as a community, I don't have any problem with developers running tests in playlists and making data-driven changes. Changes should be made for a reason, and the effects those changes have on a whole slew of multiplayer metrics -- preferably specific sets of metrics for each population subset under consideration -- absolutely should be measured and used to refine the MP experience.

What bothers me about 343i's treatment of Halo 5 so far isn't so much that they make all of these changes based on data, but they never share any of the data with us. We only get to hear about their interpretations of the data and the resulting changes. The weapons tuning test is a perfect example. Why couldn't they show us how the changes affected the behaviors of each weapon? Why can't we see the data behind why some maps are considered 'competitively viable' and others aren't? That would give the folks in the community who are actually invested in the game something concrete to discuss, and a baseline point of reference for any suggested improvements we make.

The reason I'm thinking about all this is that we're all commenting on the 'randomness' of the BR, and how spread affects gunfights, etc., but those are all pretty useless assertions because they're so hugely affected by each person's individual skill and connection and playstyle, and we use our individual experiences to make assumptions about what happened behind the scenes. But that's not our fault--we haven't been given anything concrete to base our observations on. If this is being done deliberately 'to protect the integrity of the data' then I'm sorry 343i, but you're doing it wrong. The closest we've come to seeing actual data was Josh Menke's post about Overgrowth and competitive maps, and that was still vague. We were told the metrics but not the numbers.

Comparisons to the Bungie Halo days are tired, I know, but Bungie used to occasionally do deep dives where they would really get into the nitty gritty of how the game worked, whether it was weapon behaviors, heat maps, or the ranking system (or the 24-hr multiplayer/playlist populations!). That gave everyone something real to work with, and I suspect it improved the quality of the feedback they received because it wasn't all based on subjective assumptions.

So, going forward, why not share the actual data with us? If it ends up 'compromising' the feedback you get, you can always just ignore it ...
Such a good post by Spartan. Players feeling gets well explained.

343,

It is widely known that people want pistol back so please, if you are gonna set the BR as primary weapon anyway,at least do not make us keep wasting our time with our feedback
On-topic with some of the above discussions about how changes are communicated and justified to us as a community, I don't have any problem with developers running tests in playlists and making data-driven changes. Changes should be made for a reason, and the effects those changes have on a whole slew of multiplayer metrics -- preferably specific sets of metrics for each population subset under consideration -- absolutely should be measured and used to refine the MP experience.

What bothers me about 343i's treatment of Halo 5 so far isn't so much that they make all of these changes based on data, but they never share any of the data with us. We only get to hear about their interpretations of the data and the resulting changes. The weapons tuning test is a perfect example. Why couldn't they show us how the changes affected the behaviors of each weapon? Why can't we see the data behind why some maps are considered 'competitively viable' and others aren't? That would give the folks in the community who are actually invested in the game something concrete to discuss, and a baseline point of reference for any suggested improvements we make.

The reason I'm thinking about all this is that we're all commenting on the 'randomness' of the BR, and how spread affects gunfights, etc., but those are all pretty useless assertions because they're so hugely affected by each person's individual skill and connection and playstyle, and we use our individual experiences to make assumptions about what happened behind the scenes. But that's not our fault--we haven't been given anything concrete to base our observations on. If this is being done deliberately 'to protect the integrity of the data' then I'm sorry 343i, but you're doing it wrong. The closest we've come to seeing actual data was Josh Menke's post about Overgrowth and competitive maps, and that was still vague. We were told the metrics but not the numbers.

Comparisons to the Bungie Halo days are tired, I know, but Bungie used to occasionally do deep dives where they would really get into the nitty gritty of how the game worked, whether it was weapon behaviors, heat maps, or the ranking system (or the 24-hr multiplayer/playlist populations!). That gave everyone something real to work with, and I suspect it improved the quality of the feedback they received because it wasn't all based on subjective assumptions.

So, going forward, why not share the actual data with us? If it ends up 'compromising' the feedback you get, you can always just ignore it ...
My main problem with the data is that it doesn’t always feel like it would be the most accurate. For example, it was mentioned that Overgrowth is pretty popular in this test playlist which they’ve concluded due to low quit rates. However, those of us who care about our rank will suck it up and play maps we hate to avoid losing CSR. Or in playlists with smaller populations, and thus longer wait times, just so we can play instead of waiting another however long to find a different match. In my opinion, this particular type of data would be more accurate were we able to veto or vote on maps. I think that would paint a better picture of what maps are popular or not. I just don’t see the logic in “well this map must be popular because not many people are quitting even though we punish them if they do quit.” Especially when almost everyone I’ve heard, believed the opposite of what the data supposedly shows.
Would like to see den magnum brought back, and have the br as a map pick up. Love the way the burst speed is redused for the br, but it should not be the starting weapon. Love that oddball will be in hcs. I think the ball respawn timer should be longer when the carrier jumps off the map, to make this a viable strategy as it was in previous halos.
Sparty TG wrote:
Since absolutely nothing I say in the private calls we HCS Professional players have with 343, or the surveys we take the time to fill out mean absolutely nothing I figured Hey! Why not come to the forums and try my luck here!!

Let me put this into perspective.

It’s blatantly obvious the BR and Gunfighter post-update are the worst thing to ever happen to Halo 5: Guardians which is sad to say because we were forced to compete with Assault Rifles and Radar for a year and a half ( LMAO ).

The BR post update is the equivalent of filming an action sequence for Hollywood with the amount of blanks I am consistently shooting. The Gunfighter is honestly just super cheesy to use. It’s almost the same as shooting a semi-automatic SMG. Lol.

I tested these settings for DAYS with a wide variety of highly skills players, and also players who were also not near as skilled. No matter what group, it progressively felt worse game by game. At first it felt alright, but over time it became so obvious that this is the farthest thing Halo 5 needed.

This timing was beyond unnecessary in the first place. We finally had gotten to a point in competitive Halo ( I’m talking HCS and tournament play, nothing to do with other playlists ) where the settings actually made sense. The settings we were using pre-update were the most balanced game we had played since launch. Why change it? I don’t know. Doesn’t make sense.

This argument that the Pistol is now over powered is just absurd. The pistol is the most balanced weapon in the game. The only reason it seems “overpowered” is because they randomly decide to change the BR and DMR into literal NERF weapons.

EVEN SO, weapons tuned or not, I don’t see the issue in having Pistol starts with minimal weapons placed on the map. The most successful Halo has been in competitive history is during Halo 3 in which we had MLG running things.

There was a total of six weapons:
Battle Rifle ( Start )
Sniper Rifle
Rocket Launcher
Mauler
Plasma Pistol
Sword ( On Heretic )

Why is it such a hard concept to grasp that we don’t need all these corny weapons in competitive play?
It just doesn’t make sense to have things like a Shotgun, Scattershot, or any sort of Automatic weapon in competitive play.

Realistically the competitive settings should be Pistol starts, with tier-2 Light Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Rockets, maybe a Sword with no speed boost, and maybe a Plasma Caster. Some weapons are are debatable like the sword, PC, shotgun, scatter, whatever. That could easily be worked out.

No community is remotely pleased with this update to say the least whether it be the Slayer kids, Doubles kids, HCS players, etc. If people are to be pleased, separate the competitive settings from the rest.

I’m not trying to sound entitled in the slightest but I’m honestly just stating obvious facts.

This will be my last and only attempt to speak out. I’ve made it clearly obvious on twitter what needs to be done whether or not I have gone about it in the right way.

I am UNBELIEVABLY tired of myself and the rest of the HCS community being unheard. It has been like this for over two years. Enough is enough honestly. Start listening, or the HCS will be dead. It’s plain and simple.

I am unbelievably grateful to have been able to compete in the HCS but this has just gone too far.

I will not be responding any further on the forum so if you’d like to respond to what I have to say, please tweet at me @Spartan. Thanks
I'm an amateur competitive player and I agree with this, I left the United States Virgin Islands to get stateside just to be able to compete in this game. I've defended you guys but you guys make it seem likes a pipe dream to chase this dream and it's not because of skill just the poor choices you make to the game. Please make a difference, many of the players like spartan and more feel unheard. I'm only posting hoping this would help somehow, Halo could be in such a better place guys, please make it happen.
Ever since this update has come into play, Many players that have grinded this game day after day, switched to another game. Is this what you want 343. I understand you want to make changes to this game to make it either better or make it more competitive, I get it, but here is where you went wrong. Put the BR back to what it was before and put the regular pistol back in HCS. That pistol start in HCS with no secondary, that’s what made HCS so competitive. We had to go find a weapon to go pick up. It’s a simple fix that needs to be fixed quick because if you keep delaying more and more people will leave. I have played over 120k games across all halos together. I really don’t wanna say goodbye to halo but if this is how halo going to be, I will go grind another game. Please take this into consideration.
How many negative responses to these changes do you need to just say ok, we made a mistake and we are going to revert them.

I mean seriously, have you ever had a more negative response? Look at how many votes Spartans post got now. Imagine how many it would have got if everyone who used to play HCS read it...

You are killing competitive halo. No more needs to be said as it's already all been said... By everyone.
I like the idea of oddball but the way oddball works should change a bit.
1. Picking up oddball player movement speed should be slower
2. When odd ball is played, should take 1.5 seconds to re-spawn on map
3. A BR start is perfect, Loved what you have done to it, makes halo feel like halo again (I'm not joking here)
4. The gunfighter magnum ruins the magic ( competitiveness behind BR battles) Don't put it in as secondary
5. The maps overgrowth and Mercy still are not well designed maps for competitive play, maybe new maps like guardian remake, or construct would play better for oddball
6. Make the oddball 2 melee beat down kill not 1 melee kill.
7. Take off the indicator (kill) on the oddball, ruins the basis of setting up with the ball, holding it for good time when you actually manage to kill the other team to take control.
8. Love the updates. BR start Im hoping for!
Sparty TG wrote:
Since absolutely nothing I say in the private calls we HCS Professional players have with 343, or the surveys we take the time to fill out mean absolutely nothing I figured Hey! Why not come to the forums and try my luck here!!

Let me put this into perspective.

It’s blatantly obvious the BR and Gunfighter post-update are the worst thing to ever happen to Halo 5: Guardians which is sad to say because we were forced to compete with Assault Rifles and Radar for a year and a half ( LMAO ).

The BR post update is the equivalent of filming an action sequence for Hollywood with the amount of blanks I am consistently shooting. The Gunfighter is honestly just super cheesy to use. It’s almost the same as shooting a semi-automatic SMG. Lol.

I tested these settings for DAYS with a wide variety of highly skills players, and also players who were also not near as skilled. No matter what group, it progressively felt worse game by game. At first it felt alright, but over time it became so obvious that this is the farthest thing Halo 5 needed.

This timing was beyond unnecessary in the first place. We finally had gotten to a point in competitive Halo ( I’m talking HCS and tournament play, nothing to do with other playlists ) where the settings actually made sense. The settings we were using pre-update were the most balanced game we had played since launch. Why change it? I don’t know. Doesn’t make sense.

This argument that the Pistol is now over powered is just absurd. The pistol is the most balanced weapon in the game. The only reason it seems “overpowered” is because they randomly decide to change the BR and DMR into literal NERF weapons.

EVEN SO, weapons tuned or not, I don’t see the issue in having Pistol starts with minimal weapons placed on the map. The most successful Halo has been in competitive history is during Halo 3 in which we had MLG running things.

There was a total of six weapons:
Battle Rifle ( Start )
Sniper Rifle
Rocket Launcher
Mauler
Plasma Pistol
Sword ( On Heretic )

Why is it such a hard concept to grasp that we don’t need all these corny weapons in competitive play?
It just doesn’t make sense to have things like a Shotgun, Scattershot, or any sort of Automatic weapon in competitive play.

Realistically the competitive settings should be Pistol starts, with tier-2 Light Rifles, Sniper Rifles, Rockets, maybe a Sword with no speed boost, and maybe a Plasma Caster. Some weapons are are debatable like the sword, PC, shotgun, scatter, whatever. That could easily be worked out.

No community is remotely pleased with this update to say the least whether it be the Slayer kids, Doubles kids, HCS players, etc. If people are to be pleased, separate the competitive settings from the rest.

I’m not trying to sound entitled in the slightest but I’m honestly just stating obvious facts.

This will be my last and only attempt to speak out. I’ve made it clearly obvious on twitter what needs to be done whether or not I have gone about it in the right way.

I am UNBELIEVABLY tired of myself and the rest of the HCS community being unheard. It has been like this for over two years. Enough is enough honestly. Start listening, or the HCS will be dead. It’s plain and simple.

I am unbelievably grateful to have been able to compete in the HCS but this has just gone too far.

I will not be responding any further on the forum so if you’d like to respond to what I have to say, please tweet at me @Spartan. Thanks
I agree 100% on everything Sparty said! Can you guys atleast do the right thing for the community for once.
I won't lie. I try to play halo as much as possible when there is spare time and this whole week off with thanksgiving, I played it for maybe an hour total.

This is was due to mostly the fact that I'm sick of playing oddball and only oddball. (Actually played BTB for the first time in a year).

Im okay with the BR starts (would prefer pistol still) but please tune it a little better...and make better oddball maps.
Enoughs been stated not even in this update but prior to this. Each season they test they "refuse" to listen and attempt to strong arm their chooses as if 'a little kid with an idea and if you don't go ahead with it who cares you got to suffer through the pain'... gain some maturity as a development team and listen to your community. If you cannot elect community members in waypoint, or pump out surveys...

You had given most regions at least one main competitive LAN event, however this weapon tuning test doesn't unfortunately work. One step forward, 13 steps back... literally have broken your sandbox.
All I have to say about this is I thoroughly loved the HCS playlist. It is what I played 90% of the time. Now I have very little desire to play halo. I find myself struggling to find something enjoyable to play now because HCS was my "Go To". I literally record about 3 or 4 clips per game in this new oddball Testing to rewatch how SCREWED I GOT by using the BR. When I not 4 shot, FIVE SHOT a guy and he doesn't die, I get so frustrated, I just find it so hard to enjoy halo now. I will grab the DMR every time before using the new BR or GFM. Hahah I've literally sacrificed my life out of frustration to get a DMR.
This randomness, up to luck, BR needs to go. I'm a very lenient person especially when it comes to all these changes in H5. But this one is just over the top. Take out the best playlist to test oddball with crappy weapons. It's just insane. I'm not enjoying halo at the moment.
I've been enjoying the new settings, but maybe that's because I have grown completely bored of the old settings. I have been grinding this game fairly consistently since launch and it has really been getting stale for me as of late. Recently I've been strictly searching the Oddball Preview and to be quite honest I have a bit more fun with the new starts. Again, this could be due to the "newness" of the settings/gametype and the potential evolution of the meta as these factors tend to help a game feel fresh again. I am making sure I keep these factors in mind as I continue to form my opinions.

To elaborate a bit more, with the new BR I feel as if team fighting is far more important which is a plus as team fighting should always be encouraged in a Halo title. Also, with the TTK increase the overall sandbox feels more like "Halo" IMO as Halo 5 has some of the fastest TTK's of any Halo title. Personally I feel that TTK's that are overly fast can be a bit jarring for fans of the classic Halo titles, thus making the game frustrating and less enjoyable for those players. (Again these are all opinions. I'm not trying to claim any parts of this post as fact what so ever). The biggest complaint I have with the BR tune is that picking up the Light Rifle basically allows you to play the game on easy mode. The LR either needs to be taken out of comp or nerfed if it is to be going 1 on 1 with this new BR. In its current state the LR feels far too powerful in 1v1 scenarios.

Moving on, I believe the GF magnum is not perfect however it can be quite satisfying once you learn its effective range and how to pace your shots. After playing the new starts for quite a bit, perfect kills with the GF are so much more satisfying to me than those earned with the old Magnum as they feel far more difficult to achieve. This is most likely due to the varying amounts of effective range and reticle magnetism between the two variants. Another huge plus for me is that the GF has a realistic range for a pistol rather than being a pocket sized rifle like the current Magnum. If the GF is supposed to be filling the AR's role as a CQB clean up weapon it seems fitting for those avidly against automatic weapons (AKA the comp scene.) However, I am still forming my opinion on weather I believe the GF should be a starting weapon as it can feel a bit OP in certain scenarios. (More to come on that next week)

And that's about all I have for now on the new BR/GF starts. Tons of Halo will be played in the coming days and I will continue to form my opinions regarding the topic of BR/GF starts, as well as the overall sandbox tuning. This is simply my stream of consciousness and I don't expect anyone to agree 100% if at all. Plus I'm not a "PRO" so my opinion is worth about as much as a req pack is to someone who's reached 152. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thanks for reading
somebody create a Poll to see what everyone truly votes for
somebody create a Poll to see what everyone truly votes for
A 343 employee already did that:
PollPlus, there's 10 pages on this thread, I checked them all, and there's around 1 comment per page that supports (or partially supports) the test settings.
The rest of the comments pretty much ask to revert to the previous HCS settings and to retune the BR closer to what it was.

Also, most pro players already expressed this through twitter and directly to 343.
Very sad.. halo 5 is a great game but these hopefully ( temporary) changes will be gone. The BR/ gunfighter magnum does not work for competitive halo. The BR spread and gunfighter spread is just horrible, idk what was wrong with the BR to start with, it felt right for competitive play. I hope the oddball playlist gets a separate competitive play too because going to team arena with assault rifle starts is not fun. Just bring back normal HCS with a separate playlist for oddball and take out the br start with gunfighter. Thank you for reading this
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