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HaloWC Oddball Preview Feedback Thread

OP Unyshek

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I dont understand why you put resources into weapon balance tuning when we've had these weapons for 2 years, it's not stale, it was perfect. What's NOT broken doesn't need a fix, the magnum was fine and now you're forcing us to play with broken/clunky/slow BR starts and with a Gunfighter magnum that just sucks imo.

What you need to do is to put resources into new maps and gametypes that would make it a lot more interresting and fresh. Yes, you're testing out Oddball which is nice, but we need more good competetive maps.

If we're stuck with BR/GF starts I'm done with Halo.
DaxSeven09 wrote:
Two year with very little bullet spread is too difficult to give up it seems.
It's not about people not wanting to give it up because they are to lazy to readjust or something like that though. Which kind of seems to be what you'e implying. Previous BR iterations were much more wild, yes. But they were in much slower games. H5 is breakneck speed at all times. Dudes are running at 50mph jumping thrusting sliding and so on. Dramatic and random bullet spread doesn't exactly play nicely with a game like that. It just feels inconsisent and lucky. If I turn on a guy and five him with the standard mag, I feel like a god. If I turn and do the same with the new BR or GF mag, I just feel extremely lucky. Which of course, I am. I wouldn't call that a step in the right direction for THE competitive playlist.
No I wasn't implying that. The true competitive players are not lazy by any means. My point was we all have gotten used to the BR, and now to have a new one has been difficult to deal with. What if they dialed down the movement? No sprint, or thrust, no charge...that's the main argument I am seeing. That the BR, with it's current slower ttk doesn't fit in the fast pace of Halo 5.
Dear 343i,
Please let me know who is in charge of these game types so I may have a civil and polite discussion with them. Right now the Gunfighter Magnum poses way to much of a “get out of jail free card”, there is way too much up close bullet spread for the BR, Mercy I can probably get the hang of but Overgrowth needs to go. If anything you guys could keep Magnum starts but just add in oddball as a gametype. The community that adores this franchise so much is crumbling do to some bad management issues, so please 343i, don’t ban me, just talk to your community in the fourms the way a company that loves its fans should.

Thank you,
Nikolas.
Look there's not much else that can be said but these new settings are trash. BR is useless, Gunfighter is horrible and oddball is a bad game type for halo 5. Also what's the point in removing HCS for oddball? I talked to about 20 different people today and everyones had to resort to playing slayer or social rather then being able to sweat in HCS with the settings we enjoy. Please put HCS back ASAP and make oddball its own playlist or something (even though nobody will play it but that should answer your question if it should be put into competitive), there's almost no point in playing if your remotely competitive because any playlist we can play is either trash or different settings.
Take out the BR and Gunfighter magnum from competitive play. The magnum was already fine as is.
Hey folks, bear with me since I'm a little new to giving comments on sandbox and map stuff, but I'll do my best.
I have a few comments here to address a lot of common questions I've seen.

Why take over the HCS list? Is this permanent?
First, it's not permanent. Given the resources we currently have available to us to get ready for Worlds, the most efficient way for us to test each game mode was in blocks rather than all together in one list. This focuses the feedback we get, the data we gather from stats, and the work that the designers are doing here between tests internally. We plan to run Oddball for long enough to gather both feedback and data, and then we’ll switch to the next gamemode and run that exclusively for a period of time.

Since Oddball is brand new, it’s going to need more time than the other modes / maps which have already had a lot of polish over the years. The other modes will rotate in for a shorter amount of time. We are still finalizing those plans, but that’s basically the plan.

We are using the HCS list instead of another list because:
  1. It exactly fits the audience whose feedback we need most on these settings.
  2. Oddball is brand new to competitive for Halo 5, and we need as many eyes on it as we can.
  3. We wouldn’t repurpose a playlist like, e.g., Team Arena because more people play that list than HCS, and it’s a slightly different audience. Better to use the actual core HCS audience to test than to disturb a larger audience that isn’t as invested.
Some of you have expressed concern for the population of the list given the settings changes. I am monitoring that almost hourly (when I’m not asleep) and so far it looks good.
I’ve also been monitoring map quit rates. You would be surprised to know which map is quit out of the least, I think.

The BR’s Spread
I hear a lot about the BR's spread. Just to be clear, the spread on the BR now is still historically no higher than some of the most competitive past Halos. Because it's still low, I have a hard time with the argument that it isn't competitive. Past Halos with just as high or higher a BR spread were still considered quite competitive. It’s harder to use now for sure, but I think that should make it more competitive, not less. In addition, the stats are still showing a clear skill ceiling on that BR. Better players are definitely winning vs. worse ones.

H5's BR before the tunings did have an all-time low spread. Also, the magnum's spread is also super low if non-existent relative to what you feel now on the BR. So I feel like what a lot of you are experiencing is that relative change to how the BR feels compared to both before and compared to the Magnum. I think we want everyone to have more time to get used to it. Feedback from folks that have spent a significant amount of time with it has definitely been different than those who played a few first games and gave up because, yes, it is different and less powerful than either previous weapon.

I’ve seen suggestions to make the RRR or aim-assist worse and remove the spread. This would make the BR harder to use for lower- mid-skilled players, but in our data would have little effect on high-end competitive play because those players just don’t miss, even without aim-assist and RRR. It would still be a laser beam and be back to being over-powered.

Given that it's only been less than a day, I would suggest giving the settings more time while we continue gathering feedback and data.

Radar

I still see the occasional question about radar. The reason we still have it is because Halo 5’s Abilities make a pretty big difference as far as Radar use goes. In our internal tests and in discussions with Pros, we currently agree that without the Ability Tracker, Halo 5 becomes an ability spamfest to a degree. It increases the pace of the game drastically, beyond what feels good competitively if players have no positional penalty at all for spamming evades, sprint, etc.

Oddball Score Limit

I’ve seen suggestions we increase the score limit on Oddball. So far, the way Oddball plays in Halo 5 vs. past Halos, I haven’t seen a lot of data to support this. But I am regularly tracking what score games are finishing at, and how long they are taking to inform this decision. Previous to releasing the Ranked Oddball playlist, we were getting feedback to decrease and not increase the score limit due to dead man walking scenarios. I’ll keep an eye on it and ear to feedback. But, again, it’s only been a day. People are still learning how to play this version.

Why Weapon Changes instead of New Maps and Modes?

This is a very good question, especially for folks who haven’t worked in game development.
  1. The resources that go into both types of changes are completely different and have very little impact on each other. We were able to make the weapon changes without impacting the map and game mode folks at all. So it’s not like we took the same people and thought, “Hmm, what would be better for you to do?” It was more like, “Oh, we actually have some weapon tuning resources we can free up for a short period of time, let’s use them”
  2. The amount of resources needed to make a map or a mode by far dwarves what’s needed for weapon tuning, and that’s not even including the art work. We can make weapon tuning changes with a small group in just a couple of months. Getting them into the game still takes additional time on top of that because Halo 5 weapon tunings require a patch and that has overhead. But map/mode also has that overhead. Making a new map or mode can take 6-12 months to get right (depending on the mode). So not only are the groups of people who would make the two types of changes different, the amount of time and resources it takes to do them are also massively different.
  3. Our maps and mode folks are almost 100% working on the next Halo. If we had to pull them off to make a new map or mode for 6-12 months, that’s one less map or mode for the next Halo, or adds another 6-12 months till we see the next Halo. And that’s if we pulled off the whole team. If we only used a small group, it would take much longer to even make another map or mode.
  4. What about Forge Maps? Another good question. If you speak with the best Forgers out there, you’ll learn that the amount of time it takes to Forge a map that is a) competitive enough for HCS, b) doesn’t look terrible, and c) maintains a good performance in framerate, etc., and d) doesn’t take too long for us to clean up and get into the game, pushes up to almost that same 6-12 month time frame. We’ve reviewed a lot of Forge maps, and even asked Pros to recommend any that they feel would meet the standards we need. So far we haven’t had much luck with that. But we are still open to it and still searching.
Oh, I forgot add one more important reason we used the HCS list.

In a word "MMRs"

If we were to make a new "test" playlist, we would be starting from scratch on player skills, and matchmaking would be terrible. So we would be confusing all of our feedback with bad matchmaking, and that's no beuno.

HCS has the perfect MMRs for this test.
ZaedynFel wrote:
  1. Our maps and mode folks are almost 100% working on the next Halo. If we had to pull them off to make a new map or mode for 6-12 months, that’s one less map or mode for the next Halo, or adds another 6-12 months till we see the next Halo. And that’s if we pulled off the whole team. If we only used a small group, it would take much longer to even make another map or mode.
OK thanks for the update.

I hope some of those guys made a really nice and long postmortem of Halo 5 map design and maybe we'll get decent maps in H6 <3
i get the feeling you've already made up your mind that you like your BR more than the magnum. Most people i talk to point to the BR just not being as fun. The magnum was one of the best parts of h5, its mind-boggling that of all the changes this game could use, thats what you go with.
ZaedynFel wrote:
I hear a lot about the BR's spread. Just to be clear, the spread on the BR now is still historically no higher than some of the most competitive past Halos. Because it's still low, I have a hard time with the argument that it isn't competitive. Past Halos with just as high or higher a BR spread were still considered quite competitive. It’s harder to use now for sure, but I think that should make it more competitive, not less. In addition, the stats are still showing a clear skill ceiling on that BR. Better players are definitely winning vs. worse ones.
I haven't seen anyone actually argue that the new BR "isn't competitive." People are concerned that introducing random spread into the game makes it less competitive, and there's the obvious concerns about sweep shotting for headshots that have always existed with the BR. But, no one is saying that it has no skill gap at all. This is a strawman.

Bringing up past Halos is irrelevant. The failures of past Halos do not justify the failures of the current Halo game.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Hey folks, bear with me since I'm a little new to giving comments on sandbox and map stuff, but I'll do my best.
I have a few comments here to address a lot of common questions I've seen.
Why take over the HCS list? Is this permanent?First, it's not permanent. Given the resources we currently have available to us to get ready for Worlds, the most efficient way for us to test each game mode was in blocks rather than all together in one list. This focuses the feedback we get, the data we gather from stats, and the work that the designers are doing here between tests internally. We plan to run Oddball for long enough to gather both feedback and data, and then we’ll switch to the next gamemode and run that exclusively for a period of time.

Since Oddball is brand new, it’s going to need more time than the other modes / maps which have already had a lot of polish over the years. The other modes will rotate in for a shorter amount of time. We are still finalizing those plans, but that’s basically the plan.

We are using the HCS list instead of another list because:
  1. It exactly fits the audience whose feedback we need most on these settings.
  2. Oddball is brand new to competitive for Halo 5, and we need as many eyes on it as we can.
  3. We wouldn’t repurpose a playlist like, e.g., Team Arena because more people play that list than HCS, and it’s a slightly different audience. Better to use the actual core HCS audience to test than to disturb a larger audience that isn’t as invested.
Some of you have expressed concern for the population of the list given the settings changes. I am monitoring that almost hourly (when I’m not asleep) and so far it looks good.
I’ve also been monitoring map quit rates. You would be surprised to know which map is quit out of the least, I think.

The BR’s SpreadI hear a lot about the BR's spread. Just to be clear, the spread on the BR now is still historically no higher than some of the most competitive past Halos. Because it's still low, I have a hard time with the argument that it isn't competitive. Past Halos with just as high or higher a BR spread were still considered quite competitive. It’s harder to use now for sure, but I think that should make it more competitive, not less. In addition, the stats are still showing a clear skill ceiling on that BR. Better players are definitely winning vs. worse ones.

H5's BR before the tunings did have an all-time low spread. Also, the magnum's spread is also super low if non-existent relative to what you feel now on the BR. So I feel like what a lot of you are experiencing is that relative change to how the BR feels compared to both before and compared to the Magnum. I think we want everyone to have more time to get used to it. Feedback from folks that have spent a significant amount of time with it has definitely been different than those who played a few first games and gave up because, yes, it is different and less powerful than either previous weapon.

I’ve seen suggestions to make the RRR or aim-assist worse and remove the spread. This would make the BR harder to use for lower- mid-skilled players, but in our data would have little effect on high-end competitive play because those players just don’t miss, even without aim-assist and RRR. It would still be a laser beam and be back to being over-powered.

Given that it's only been less than a day, I would suggest giving the settings more time while we continue gathering feedback and data.

Radar I still see the occasional question about radar. The reason we still have it is because Halo 5’s Abilities make a pretty big difference as far as Radar use goes. In our internal tests and in discussions with Pros, we currently agree that without the Ability Tracker, Halo 5 becomes an ability spamfest to a degree. It increases the pace of the game drastically, beyond what feels good competitively if players have no positional penalty at all for spamming evades, sprint, etc.

Oddball Score Limit I’ve seen suggestions we increase the score limit on Oddball. So far, the way Oddball plays in Halo 5 vs. past Halos, I haven’t seen a lot of data to support this. But I am regularly tracking what score games are finishing at, and how long they are taking to inform this decision. Previous to releasing the Ranked Oddball playlist, we were getting feedback to decrease and not increase the score limit due to dead man walking scenarios. I’ll keep an eye on it and ear to feedback. But, again, it’s only been a day. People are still learning how to play this version.

Why Weapon Changes instead of New Maps and Modes? This is a very good question, especially for folks who haven’t worked in game development.
  1. The resources that go into both types of changes are completely different and have very little impact on each other. We were able to make the weapon changes without impacting the map and game mode folks at all. So it’s not like we took the same people and thought, “Hmm, what would be better for you to do?” It was more like, “Oh, we actually have some weapon tuning resources we can free up for a short period of time, let’s use them”
  2. The amount of resources needed to make a map or a mode by far dwarves what’s needed for weapon tuning, and that’s not even including the art work. We can make weapon tuning changes with a small group in just a couple of months. Getting them into the game still takes additional time on top of that because Halo 5 weapon tunings require a patch and that has overhead. But map/mode also has that overhead. Making a new map or mode can take 6-12 months to get right (depending on the mode). So not only are the groups of people who would make the two types of changes different, the amount of time and resources it takes to do them are also massively different.
  3. Our maps and mode folks are almost 100% working on the next Halo. If we had to pull them off to make a new map or mode for 6-12 months, that’s one less map or mode for the next Halo, or adds another 6-12 months till we see the next Halo. And that’s if we pulled off the whole team. If we only used a small group, it would take much longer to even make another map or mode.
  4. What about Forge Maps? Another good question. If you speak with the best Forgers out there, you’ll learn that the amount of time it takes to Forge a map that is a) competitive enough for HCS, b) doesn’t look terrible, and c) maintains a good performance in framerate, etc., and d) doesn’t take too long for us to clean up and get into the game, pushes up to almost that same 6-12 month time frame. We’ve reviewed a lot of Forge maps, and even asked Pros to recommend any that they feel would meet the standards we need. So far we haven’t had much luck with that. But we are still open to it and still searching.
Honest question here. So the HCS playlist is just going to rotate with all of these new test playlists and we arent going to ever get normal HCS with all of the game modes back? Ive seen multiple pros tweet out displeasure over the changes. I couldnt imagine worlds with BR/Gunfighter magnum starts. I think magnum/GFM starts would be more well received. If these changes stick or if the HCS playlist just becomes a rotation of test playlists then unfortunately a lot of people are going to stop playing and not come back. This will lower the overall population and would be a big mistake.
Not the biggest fan of Oddball. Hard to tell whether or not I like the BR/Gunfighter starts since I don’t enjoy the gametype. Still don’t feel like Overgrowth and Mercy are competitive no matter what the gametype. I’m not saying they’re bad maps (ok, Mercy’s pretty terrible) I don’t actually mind Overgrowth for Slayer, but neither of them should be considered for competitive in my opinion.
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ZaedynFel wrote:
snip
Honest question here. So the HCS playlist is just going to rotate with all of these new test playlists and we arent going to ever get normal HCS with all of the game modes back? Ive seen multiple pros tweet out displeasure over the changes. I couldnt imagine worlds with BR/Gunfighter magnum starts. I think magnum/GFM starts would be more well received. If these changes stick or if the HCS playlist just becomes a rotation of test playlists then unfortunately a lot of people are going to stop playing and not come back. This will lower the overall population and would be a big mistake.
Dude, come on. As he already said, they're testing things. They're going to test each gametype they want in HCS, and then once settings are finalized it will go back to a multi-gametype playlist.
Honest question here. So the HCS playlist is just going to rotate with all of these new test playlists and we arent going to ever get normal HCS with all of the game modes back? Ive seen multiple pros tweet out displeasure over the changes. I couldnt imagine worlds with BR/Gunfighter magnum starts. I think magnum/GFM starts would be more well received. If these changes stick or if the HCS playlist just becomes a rotation of test playlists then unfortunately a lot of people are going to stop playing and not come back. This will lower the overall population and would be a big mistake.
Our endgoal is to land on settings for Worlds, including the final gametypes, replace Team Arena with those, and then the HCS playlist goes away until we need to preview settings again. So we want to get back to just one main comp list that has the HCS settings in it.

So basically we get the HCS playlist back like before, but it'll be named Team Arena like it used to be.
People will not return to this game for the br/gfm combo. Players that play only HCS will leave the game entirely. I can tell you a very high percentage of HCS players ONLY PLAY HCS. So now they have nothing to do and this has given them a reason not to play. I am one of those people. You will not find a single pro who says they are okay with this. Not a single one. I am not trying to be mean spirited or negative but this is clearly not going over well with the very people who you say their feedback is the most important.
Halo 5 before the update was enjoyable, now it's too boring! I loved playing Halo 3 and I didn't care about BR spread, but this is Halo 5! I just wanna play it the way it was before the update. You could have added those changes before Halo 5 came out, not now. I know you don't care, but I'm not playing this game until the next Halo.
343,

Could you please advise when this trial is gonna finish and get back to the former (and enjoyable) settings?

Thanks
ZaedynFel wrote:
The BR’s SpreadI hear a lot about the BR's spread. Just to be clear, the spread on the BR now is still historically no higher than some of the most competitive past Halos. Because it's still low, I have a hard time with the argument that it isn't competitive. Past Halos with just as high or higher a BR spread were still considered quite competitive. It’s harder to use now for sure, but I think that should make it more competitive, not less. In addition, the stats are still showing a clear skill ceiling on that BR. Better players are definitely winning vs. worse ones.

H5's BR before the tunings did have an all-time low spread. Also, the magnum's spread is also super low if non-existent relative to what you feel now on the BR. So I feel like what a lot of you are experiencing is that relative change to how the BR feels compared to both before and compared to the Magnum. I think we want everyone to have more time to get used to it. Feedback from folks that have spent a significant amount of time with it has definitely been different than those who played a few first games and gave up because, yes, it is different and less powerful than either previous weapon.

I’ve seen suggestions to make the RRR or aim-assist worse and remove the spread. This would make the BR harder to use for lower- mid-skilled players, but in our data would have little effect on high-end competitive play because those players just don’t miss, even without aim-assist and RRR. It would still be a laser beam and be back to being over-powered.

Given that it's only been less than a day, I would suggest giving the settings more time while we continue gathering feedback and data.

I'll keep playing but so far, the BR is feeling worse and worse as i go. I dont care about the bullet spread. At arena ranges it really doesn't make a difference. Not like it did in Weapon Tuning v1 anyway. How hard the BR is to use as far as RRR and AA is concerned, i like quite a bit as well.

The issue i have with the BR is that the cadence on the 3 round burst is so spaced out, that the TTK of the gun has become very long. One of the longest TTK's for a precision weapon that halo has had. While the original cadence was basically like shooting 1 bullet, i think they overshot the landing with the new cadence.

Thank you for the update as always, your insight is great!
ZaedynFel wrote:
Honest question here. So the HCS playlist is just going to rotate with all of these new test playlists and we arent going to ever get normal HCS with all of the game modes back? Ive seen multiple pros tweet out displeasure over the changes. I couldnt imagine worlds with BR/Gunfighter magnum starts. I think magnum/GFM starts would be more well received. If these changes stick or if the HCS playlist just becomes a rotation of test playlists then unfortunately a lot of people are going to stop playing and not come back. This will lower the overall population and would be a big mistake.
Our endgoal is to land on settings for Worlds, including the final gametypes, replace Team Arena with those, and then the HCS playlist goes away until we need to preview settings again. So we want to get back to just one main comp list that has the HCS settings in it.

So basically we get the HCS playlist back like before, but it'll be named Team Arena like it used to be.
Sorry multi-post but i love this idea.
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