Forums / Community / Halo Championship Series

HaloWC Oddball Preview Feedback Thread

OP Unyshek

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 6
  4. 7
  5. 8
  6. 9
  7. 10
  8. ...
  9. 11
You should let the magnum, you need more skill to use it and thats what the HCS is all about.
Weakachu wrote:
DoubIe A wrote:
Weakachu wrote:
DoubIe A wrote:
A lot of people are saying the new BR is too weak and the magnum is far superior but this has not been my experience. Outside of close range, the BR dominates the pistol.

There is no reason to debate this with spread, kill time, blah blah blah.

Anyone who wants to test it out, send me a message. I will be on at around 4 pm est. It will take a few minutes per person.

There are two variables not accounted for. One is who will have the best connection to the server. The other is if I my skill level is too high that I dominate you with both BR and magnum. But I think it still should become clear to all of you BR haters that it is still good. Or maybe I will realize the BR sucks (doubt it).

My gamertag is Doubie A

Once the test is completed, post the results here.
Spoiler:
Show
Pretty much exactly as i expected. In the hands of equally skilled players, Magnum is stronger than the BR period.
Well, i half take that back. I'm sure on the lower end of the skill spectrum its the other way around since you can at least get partial credit with a BR by sweeping.
The last couple of matches of HaloWC Oddball that I've played were against a team of really good griefers who were looking to pad their K/D. None of them even cared to touch the ball. They just did their best to keep us away from it. That may become a problem later on in the social and ranked playlists.
This isn't exactly new though. Same thing happens with Flag. The only way to stop that from happening is to only play objective games where the objective is always being scored (like strongholds). Lets not blame gametypes for people being -Yoinks!-.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Honest question here. So the HCS playlist is just going to rotate with all of these new test playlists and we arent going to ever get normal HCS with all of the game modes back? Ive seen multiple pros tweet out displeasure over the changes. I couldnt imagine worlds with BR/Gunfighter magnum starts. I think magnum/GFM starts would be more well received. If these changes stick or if the HCS playlist just becomes a rotation of test playlists then unfortunately a lot of people are going to stop playing and not come back. This will lower the overall population and would be a big mistake.
Our endgoal is to land on settings for Worlds, including the final gametypes, replace Team Arena with those, and then the HCS playlist goes away until we need to preview settings again. So we want to get back to just one main comp list that has the HCS settings in it.

So basically we get the HCS playlist back like before, but it'll be named Team Arena like it used to be.
If the goal is to merge HCS and Team Arena, can we look at a return of Social Skirmish? I don't want to play 4v4 with competitive settings/radar/no autos etc. I enjoy the variety of the H5 weapon sandbox and would still like to utilize them to their fullest while getting to play CTF, Oddball, Stronholds, etc.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Our endgoal is to land on settings for Worlds, including the final gametypes, replace Team Arena with those, and then the HCS playlist goes away until we need to preview settings again. So we want to get back to just one main comp list that has the HCS settings in it.

So basically we get the HCS playlist back like before, but it'll be named Team Arena like it used to be.
This is amazing news. Makes the playlist stronger and brings the community back together. Just hoping that the playlist has Mangnum starts, and nothing with BR+GFM.
OK so i finally found some time to play some oddball with BR/GF starts. First impression were not good i have to say. I find it difficult to properly judge oddball with the different starting weapons. I think the gametype has some potential but definitely not with these weapons.

I think i understand the thinking behind introducing these changes as it makes thinks a little similar to H2/3. Although i know H3 was the height of Comp halo in terms of participation crowds etc in terms of weapons both HCE and H2 were superior. I find the idea that a slower ttk is more competitive to be a strange one. I understand that theoretically you need to keep the reticle on target for longer etc but it just makes the game even more reliant on team shot. Especially with H5 movement. A solid competitive starting weapon should have a large skill gap and a fair gap between fastest ttk and average ttk. The CE pistol is a good example (as much as i would love it i am not proposing we return to the CE pistol) with a fastest ttk of approx 0.6s and an average ttk of approx 1.2s (i think).

I will always prefer single shot precision weapons as starting weapons but i dont mind the BR but not with H5 movement. Remove sprint and abilities and the new BR becomes a lot more attractive (not feasible for H5 i know but worth thinking about for H6).

The GF is the opposite of what a competitive weapon should be, its spammy as hell and doesnt really need to be in the sandbox at all, let alone a starting weapon.

In terms of oddball itself, i think the one hit melee kill needs to go and the oddball carrier needs to have a single thrust available (hard to properly judge with new weapons)

I will continue to play more games and write more if my opinion changes but for now, please, please, please bring back pistol starts.
Tazzman29 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Honest question here. So the HCS playlist is just going to rotate with all of these new test playlists and we arent going to ever get normal HCS with all of the game modes back? Ive seen multiple pros tweet out displeasure over the changes. I couldnt imagine worlds with BR/Gunfighter magnum starts. I think magnum/GFM starts would be more well received. If these changes stick or if the HCS playlist just becomes a rotation of test playlists then unfortunately a lot of people are going to stop playing and not come back. This will lower the overall population and would be a big mistake.
Our endgoal is to land on settings for Worlds, including the final gametypes, replace Team Arena with those, and then the HCS playlist goes away until we need to preview settings again. So we want to get back to just one main comp list that has the HCS settings in it.

So basically we get the HCS playlist back like before, but it'll be named Team Arena like it used to be.
If the goal is to merge HCS and Team Arena, can we look at a return of Social Skirmish? I don't want to play 4v4 with competitive settings/radar/no autos etc. I enjoy the variety of the H5 weapon sandbox and would still like to utilize them to their fullest while getting to play CTF, Oddball, Stronholds, etc.
We'll be focusing some attention on Social after we finish with this run.
Any Chance Coliseum can be tested? I think it's pretty clear Overgrowth and Mercy won't be played at Worlds. Having a variant map for Oddball (if the gametype even makes it to HCS settings) would be nice.
I’ve already said this over in the weapon tuning playlist so I will abridge it here. Oddball would be awesome if the BR wasn’t broken and the BR/Gunfighter Magnum weren’t the starting weapons.
I forgot, mercy and overgrowth are terrible.
After playing more on Eden, I don't think it's that great for Ball. Holding the ball at Blue plat is a bit too strong of a setup and it's pretty easy to rotate either outside or into tower (Also tower setup is a total cluster of nades and chaos in both Empire and Eden) when it does get broken.

IMO that really just leaves us Ball on Rig and Truth for HWC. A bit disappointing, but I'd rather play on 2 maps that are for sure good than try to force Eden/Overgrowth/Mercy in and dilute the settings with iffy map/gametype combos.
Like a majority of other folks, I'm also really not a fan of the considered loadout changes.

1. I believe that magnum starts are better than the currently tested BR/GF-mag starts. The magnum is a more consistent weapon than either of the others, and provides consistent results. If I'm getting smacked by someone in a magnum fight, I have no reservations about there being any difference between us but skill. However, this BR introduces an unfortunate gray area to such a situation.

2. I think the BR was more suitable as it was before the tuning. I understand that it would've been too OP if we had intended to use it for starts (as we're currently testing), so I'm not questioning why it was nerfed/modified. However, if we're going to go back to magnum starts, I think it's important that the BR is put back to how it was, because if it stays as it is now, no one would use it over the magnum that we spawn with due to its inconsistency. The old BR was always worth picking up, but wasn't so strong that it couldn't be defeated by a magnum in a closer fight. Additionally, it still had the edge over the magnum at range, and this is something that everyone wants, as it is a rifle, after all.

3. Some of the weapon tuning feels great. SMG feels nerfed appropriately, I think the rail changes are working as intended, the GF mag does its CQC job pretty well.

4. Some feel pretty weak, or unnecessary. The BR is inconsistent and feels wrong, the DMR is very difficult to use at close range and this nerf may have been overdone, and the BR, DMR, and Carbine now all pale in comparison to the untouched Lightrifle, whereas before you had pros and cons to each, with some room for personal preference and adjustments that needed to be made on a personal basis to use them properly.

5. Also, I love oddball and I'm super glad it's here. I'm also glad that we're considering adding new map/gametype combos to the rotation, because playing the same maps and gametypes for the last year and change had been getting a little stale for me. :)
You have got to be trolling us with the joke that is the current HCS playlist.
ZaedynFel wrote:
The BR’s SpreadI hear a lot about the BR's spread. Just to be clear, the spread on the BR now is still historically no higher than some of the most competitive past Halos. Because it's still low, I have a hard time with the argument that it isn't competitive. Past Halos with just as high or higher a BR spread were still considered quite competitive. It’s harder to use now for sure, but I think that should make it more competitive, not less. In addition, the stats are still showing a clear skill ceiling on that BR. Better players are definitely winning vs. worse ones.H5's BR before the tunings did have an all-time low spread. Also, the magnum's spread is also super low if non-existent relative to what you feel now on the BR. So I feel like what a lot of you are experiencing is that relative change to how the BR feels compared to both before and compared to the Magnum. I think we want everyone to have more time to get used to it. Feedback from folks that have spent a significant amount of time with it has definitely been different than those who played a few first games and gave up because, yes, it is different and less powerful than either previous weapon.I’ve seen suggestions to make the RRR or aim-assist worse and remove the spread. This would make the BR harder to use for lower- mid-skilled players, but in our data would have little effect on high-end competitive play because those players just don’t miss, even without aim-assist and RRR. It would still be a laser beam and be back to being over-powered.Given that it's only been less than a day, I would suggest giving the settings more time while we continue gathering feedback.
As a numbers guy myself, I'm struggling to follow the logic in regards to this issue. Especially within the context of "competitiveness" as compared to previous Halo's.

Vanilla halo 3 had egregious spread. But MLG boosted the base damage output as a means to reduce the impact spread had on the weapon's competitive viability. Spread literally made the game less competitive so special considerations had to be made to counter the existence of spread. Reach wasn't deemed competitive until all randomness was removed from every precision weapon.

It seems to me that, generally, when people are judging how competitive something is, they are measuring how likely is that an outcome is determined by skillful execution.

When you add random spread, you are inherently introducing chance into the outcome of a gunfight. Sure, the tighter the spread is, the lesser the impact of the RNG, but you are still creating a possibility where a player can execute perfectly yet lose, while his opponent can have flawed execution yet win.

Yes, the BR is now more difficult and that does tip the scale towards "competitiveness". But that's due to the reduction of RRR and aim-assist plus the slower cadence. The spread doesn't make it harder, it just makes it more random- randomness can't be overcome by skill. RNG tips the scale away from competitiveness.

Removing spread wouldn't turn this new BR into a laserbeam- because players are 1)still having a harder time tracking opponents thanks to the reduced assists 2) And steady tracking is now more critical thanks to the slower cadence.

I really do appreciate your use of data to inform your analysis. but i fear critical context is missing.
Well said! My exact thoughts too.
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
I really like your definition of competitiveness. So much, in fact, that I spent a few hours last night writing code to measure how often our higher-skilled teams and players win or have better stats after our matches. I also built in knobs to look at different skill levels, especially near the very top, and ways to look at only close vs. not as close matches.

If the new BR is less competitive by this particular definition, we will see higher-skilled players unable to consistently beat lower-skilled players. Their "win %" in encounters will be closer to 50% (totally random, skill not a factor).

I also did this by gametype so I could compare Oddball's "competitiveness" on all of its maps compared to all of the previous gametypes on the older settings.

So far, everything looks good, but it's only been 1 day so take that with a grain of salt. You would be surprised an appalled at which map is "currently" the most competitive, by the way.

Thanks!
I definately believe that the new BR is "more competitive" because it's harder to use. In terms of competitiveness, The sum of all the changes > previous iteration.

That said, I think the spread limits its competitive value by introducing a condition that can only be overcome by luck. That's is, if two players fire at each other with equal precision, there is a chance that they will have different outcomes, purely because of the RNG element.

The question is what kind of effect does RNG have on competitiveness. Considering the fact that several tweaks have been made to the weapon, how do you control variables to properly understand the impact of each?
Again, well said TruP1aya4Rea1. The new BR is "more competitive" because the sum of all the changes makes it a more difficult (aka skillful) weapon to use than its previous iteration, but the random horizontal spread that's been introduced limits its potential competitive value and unnecessarily detracts from the subjective positive changes.

@ZaedynFel -

I hope the code you wrote is applied to more environments than just the HCS environment because the RNG aspect will likely show-up more within Warzone and BTB than anywhere else given the average engagement ranges are likely greater.
I am on vacation as I am sure many people are at the moment, and I was so excited to FINALLY have time to catch up on some Halo specifically HCS H5. I was greeted with these new settings, WHY NOW 343!!

Okay let me start by saying I have been playing Halo competitively since Halo CE with my first event being AGP chicago in 2004. I have played every single Halo at a competitive level. I think at this point after 14 years or so I always will play halo as long as its around. Now in defense of 343 I get what your doing, when some of our toxic community is talking about how trash your game is EVERY single damn day I can only imagine how irritating and disappointing it is.

Let me throw my opinion out here to begin with, I love every single Halo title some more than others (Halo CE) some not as much (H4). I absolutely love H5 especially the settings in the HCS playlist prior to this latest update. I generally do not judge a Halo multiplayer until I get to play it on LAN but considering that's just now a thing and I know two people who still play halo from time to time, LAN is just not going to happen. Regardless 343 you guys went from H4 which IMO is the worst halo title to a masterpiece in H5. You broke the mold of a big clunky primary weapon taking up so much valuable field of view and made a pistol the primary weapon. That aspect alone made me ecstatic! I am in no way taking anything away from past Halos, I honestly love each of the past Halo's in their own way.

Now back to the constant hate you receive, there is nothing and I mean nothing you could do to Halo 5 to appease these people. Hell I don't expect you could please them period. I guarantee they would complain about their coveted H3A in some way or another if you gave it to them. Point is (if this is in fact the premise) if your trying to win back some of your lost population, changing starting weapons is not going to make that happen. I believe with a lot of these people they just plain don't like this high speed, fast reaction time style halo and nothing short of a new game will bring them back.

With that being said I can tell you something that would bring a lot of players back, and would also make current players extremely happy. New maps, new gametypes (gj btw oddball is a great start), and I don't know about everyone else but I feel like the reason a lot of the people who gave H5 a fair shake who left is simply due to the arena servers. This issue alone is by FAR my biggest gripe with the game especially when I have played on warzone servers I can feel the difference immediately. I have always had bad internet (out of my control) but I have never been punished more for it than in H5 than in any of the previous titles. I have several friends who quit simply because of this reason, they couldn't take the inconsistency.

I'm going to end my mini essay here, but I want to reiterate that H5 is a great game. Just because some older players who started on older titles call it trash does not make it so. You already have good settings for competitive level play, there is always room for small tweaks here and there but the foundation is solid. This game is a blast to play with pistol only starts and even more fun to watch the pros play it. I think the majority of the pros would agree considering when I get on twitch they aren't playing matchmaking they are playing money 8's with pistol starts or another game entirely which for some is rare. Anyways I just wanted throw this out there since these new settings are implemented for testing and you guys are seeking feedback.
I know you guys get a lot of general hate, but you have people who LOVE your game. Who have our days works of game time in it. A pretty large group of dedicated players. PEOPLE DONT WANT IT CHANGED. your guys weapon tuning was fine for the most part. But to change he starting weapons is out of the question. ESPECIALLY the gunfighter. Just why, it feels like crap to use. The pistol starts were perfect, they were reliable, they were skill based, so on and so forth. What you did right with your game was the gameplay. Maybe you needed some tweaks to autos but that’s pretty much it. Stop trying to go backwards to appeal to old fans, it’s actually kinda insulting to the people who stuck around and truly loveeee your game. Your mistakes were not having every game mode and major feature ready at launch. If people saw the custom browser, the firefight, the amazing forge, right away, people would have stuck around longer. People really need to be blown away with content off the bat to stick around these days. You need good press at the beginning. Nothing you change in multiplayer is going to bring back loads of players. But people LIKE how it was before. The people who acting PLAY your game.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Tazzman29 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Honest question here. So the HCS playlist is just going to rotate with all of these new test playlists and we arent going to ever get normal HCS with all of the game modes back? Ive seen multiple pros tweet out displeasure over the changes. I couldnt imagine worlds with BR/Gunfighter magnum starts. I think magnum/GFM starts would be more well received. If these changes stick or if the HCS playlist just becomes a rotation of test playlists then unfortunately a lot of people are going to stop playing and not come back. This will lower the overall population and would be a big mistake.
Our endgoal is to land on settings for Worlds, including the final gametypes, replace Team Arena with those, and then the HCS playlist goes away until we need to preview settings again. So we want to get back to just one main comp list that has the HCS settings in it.

So basically we get the HCS playlist back like before, but it'll be named Team Arena like it used to be.
If the goal is to merge HCS and Team Arena, can we look at a return of Social Skirmish? I don't want to play 4v4 with competitive settings/radar/no autos etc. I enjoy the variety of the H5 weapon sandbox and would still like to utilize them to their fullest while getting to play CTF, Oddball, Stronholds, etc.
We'll be focusing some attention on Social after we finish with this run.
343 I’m trying to understand, what do you think is wrong with your games meta? I’d really like to know where this is headed. Why the gun fighter and br start? Nobody asked for that. Especially the gunfighter. The people who are actually playing your game and love and support you and your company, do not want this. Pretty obviously. If your looking at outside sources for this idea, like previous halos or YouTube comment sections and forums, you’re making a mistake. Those people aren’t playing halo. We are. And we don’t want any of this. Again my question is, why so drastic? Love your game and your studio, but you guys need to look to the people playing your game for guidance and double down, have all that content st launch so launch day, casuals see how much there is to do. Launch day there was pretty much nothing. Half the game was added a good amount later and people don’t always check back, most don’t. Especially when it’s an old franchise and people think” been there done that”. no previous games have had this much content. Use that, that’s what’s important. You got the gameplay right more than any other halo game before it. Focus on giving us MORE instead of DIFFERENT.
So also in addition to the ridiculous gun changes, I'm wondering who thought it was a good idea to force HCS playlist players to play one single game type over and over and over and over again. Also, I'm trying to play competitive...every second I'm not SHOOTING or throwing GRENADES I'm losing my edge....why would I want to be running around holding a ball and running away like a BI**H!!! THIS IS INSANE.
Coming from playing competitive in from H2-Reach and now looking into it for H5 as i get back into playing, the regular magnum start fits better with H5 and the quicker pace of it. BR's should still be pick ups on maps, but as for starting weapons the magnum just feels right. As for Oddball, it has been a staple in Halo competitive play for a long time and it should stay, but it needs the correct map, such as regret, Eden, and plaza, even possibly Fathom. The non already standard competitive maps are just not symmetric enough to be considered for competitive play. Also empire is always hectic and works great for strongholds, and with two teams working on communication well could be a good map for oddball as stand stills won't happen often, similar to Guardian Oddball back in Halo 3. I like the incorporation of oddball, but I think it should be tested with the magnum start HCS settings on the current HCS maps.
ZaedynFel wrote:
  1. The amount of resources needed to make a map or a mode by far dwarves what’s needed for weapon tuning, and that’s not even including the art work. We can make weapon tuning changes with a small group in just a couple of months. Getting them into the game still takes additional time on top of that because Halo 5 weapon tunings require a patch and that has overhead. But map/mode also has that overhead. Making a new map or mode can take 6-12 months to get right (depending on the mode). So not only are the groups of people who would make the two types of changes different, the amount of time and resources it takes to do them are also massively different.
Making a map takes 6-12 months to get it right? So were all the maps in BTB/ WZ and Arena that were created/released within the 10 months from its game release date not right? Cause that was a lot of maps released... and there spread out between a few months apart. THAT was dedication. This is excuses. If you're tired. Just say you're tired...
Before i start, this is my personal opinion and i know many would disagree and im ok with that, i did read a lot of comments before posting mine and also agree with some of them even if they dont think the same way i do.

First off all i like the new changes on the weapons (br, magnum, smg, etc) but i get why people don't like it on competitive or new playlist. For me the perfect BR was from Halo 3 and honestly i would be mad if 343 out of nowhere change it for the standard magnum from halo 5, it wouldn't fit.

Halo 5 is a fast game and i think that's the main reason 343 made all the weapons so accurate (im not a big fan of op guns or "laser some one across the map with the magnum"). Because of the movement the new BR feels odd, sure its not perfect and if you play on a regular playlist with magnum starts i find my self not picking up the Br because it's less effective than the Magnum. But in the odd ball playlist i like the behavior off the weapons (sure they are not perfect need a little more tweak) because there is no Standard Magnum, it feels more balance. Now with that said here its the problem 343 cannot please all of the halo fans, i respect that the majority off the community (343 supporter's) don't like this changes, but the other half, the "toxic one's" as we are label, likes this changes because it's increasing the skill gap and made the game not easy for all, like in the old days.

Instead of replacing current playlist with this new weapons why not create a new playlist with BR/ Magnum GF like the Halo 3 throwback so it doesn't affect player's who likes the game with starting Magnum.
I'm looking forward to solutions, not trying to split the community i love halo and sure all of you guys do, see you on the Oddball Playlist <3

Off topic, i encourage you guys to watch with open mind some off this youtubers, they have good points of why the old community don't like all the changes made to Halo: HiddenXperia, LateNightGamming, The Act Man, Halo Follower, Favyn, Roniboney, Wpns Grade, etc.
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 6
  4. 7
  5. 8
  6. 9
  7. 10
  8. ...
  9. 11