Forums / Community / Halo Championship Series

[Locked] HCS Settings Feedback Update -- November 27

OP ZaedynFel

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It seems like they are too stubborn to change their obviously flawed "feedback" system. You have TONS of fans speaking up on these forums telling you what they like and don't, I at this point have to believe that you guys simply must say "We hear you, We've been listening, We've been on top of the feedback, etc." Cause the way you guys seem to arrogantly post your updates is really starting to effect this community that in all rights to say Bungie and Microsoft built. The case is pretty much clear open and shut. Our words go through one ear and out the other so what's the point of leaving feedback? By now it should be pretty clear on what we want. Pistol starts coming back is a step in the right direction but a step that shouldn't have to be taken to begin with. I have to ask questions like "Why not make another complete separate playlist for testing changes in game and take the people who play that playlist the most give you feedback" That imo would be better that taking over the entire HCS playlist. Your worried about the decrease in people playing HCS maybe because the actual game modes and maps are pretty stale. Same things for 2 years straight, when you have other good game modes like King of the Hill and Assault that could be added in there. Instead you focus on AR improvement (barely) and other weapons. Not to mention the people who jump on HCS are the ones that understand "this is no zaku boy" meaning it's harder then team arena the actual try hard sweaty players can be found here enter at your own risk. Not to mention the games turn off because of the events that were held was a MAJOR turn off. Year 1 Tents with piss poor decor work looking like a 5 min surprise party set up. Year 2 disconnects mid game on stream when the stream was actually working at a LAN event that gave 1 or 2 person the racer chair but everyone else had fold out graduation chairs.... Halo eSports compared to other shooting games and their events like CoD, R6S, CS:GO just fails to impress people the production is stiff stale with little to no effort the actual feedback to response ratio is very unbalanced and the so called fixes that YOU guys broke are all self sustained injuries. I'm honestly curious on how 343i will handle this. Just be happy there are limited FPS games in the eSport market that offers as much money as halo does because if there were more options to choose from you'd have more of a problem than just some low HCS numbers.
Josh, you guys are operating under the assumption that it's the weapon/radar settings that dictate playlist health, and why HCS population has continually dropped, but as others have started discussing, that may be a faulty (or at least incomplete) assumption. Moving the playlist to the top spot in the list may help, but I suspect that the bigger barrier to a healthy HCS population is the "rank and skill morale" issue. And I think this issue affects the other ranked playlists too (where players leave for unranked WZ, BTB, Fiesta, etc.). In short, people get turned off from playlists where they get -Yoink- on. And even more so if they're getting -Yoink- on by ranks they perceive as already "low". Humans are emotionally-driven beings, and don't want to feel ashamed or unskilled playing a "game". This is something H5 has failed badly at. It's also why many people clamor for more "social" playlist offerings.

There are several key factors you can address to help here:
  1. HCS ranks are severely depressed relative to other ranked playlists. In part, this is because you designed the system so every playlist would have a bell curve of CSRs with average around Gold6/Plat1. But the HCS population is far higher skill than average, so a player used to platinum ranks will only be silver/gold in HCS. You would be much better off equalizing the CSRs between playlists - so someone who plays with a diamond 2 skill in Team Arena would likely land around diamond 2 in HCS, slayer, and other ranked playlists. This doesn't artificially inflate ranks, nor does it cheapen high ranks. It simply makes ranks more accurate and consistent accross all playlists. And it increases the incentive for people to play the HCS playlist.
  2. Because of seasonal resets, population atrition, and tweaks to the MMR boundaries for CSR bins, all of the H5 ranked playlists have experienced severe "rank deflation" over the life of this game, which is a huge hit to the morale of an average player, and drives people away from ranked playlists (especially HCS where this problem is worst). If someone is getting better at the game over time (or at least maintaining their skill), but dropping in rank, that's demoralizing and demotivating to stay in ranked play. Again, this is because as lower-skill players drop out of the playlist, you force the average CSR back to gold6/plat1, depressing everyone else's ranks. Economists have known for a century or more that deflation is bad for the economy, while a low level of inflation is good for the economy, in part because people get raises and feel richer even if their buying power remains the same. Same principle with ranks. People get pissed off because their ranks are dropping despite their best efforts, and they say "screw it" and stop playing the playlist that makes them feel bad about themselves. Or they don't play for fear of further dropping their rank. To fix this, try to calibrate the CSR boundaries every season such that people can maintain or very slowly increase their rank over many seasons, because they're likely maintaining or improving their skill over time. Again, this doesn't cheapen ranks because the truly elite players will ALWAYS rise to the high onyx ranks, above their competition. But it makes average players more likely to play. You're motivated to play ranked if you feel you have a chance to increase your rank, and vice-versa.
  3. Smurfs and alt accounts also have a horrible effect, probably much larger than you realize based on your past comments that "there aren't that many smurfs". They deflate CSR (because better players are more likely to have alt accounts, so they skew the bell curve), and even a few experiences playing against smurfs is enough to drive average players from a playlist, because it's so toxic and frustrating. Consider limiting ranked play to XBL Gold accounts only, while also helping loosen parameters so the highest-ranked players can find games without smurfing. OR, you could ignore non-XBL-Gold accounts when computing all CSR boundaries, to combat the rank-deflation smurfs cause.
TL;DR - What you guys need to understand is that it doesn't take much for the average player to get emotionally frustrated with halo and simply drop it for other games that make them "feel" better. While Halo prides itself on having a high skill gap and competitive settings, you ALSO need to not alienate average gamers if you want a large population and good playlist health. Getting wrecked just a few times by low-ranked players or smurfs may be enough to make the average player un-install the game and move on to another title. You need to give the average players a reason to remain emotionally connected to this game. You need to find ways to make this game FEEL more rewarding and fun for the masses, and help players actually feel like they're getting better. And tweaking ranks around the issues I mention would help a lot (so would new maps and content). You have said that H3 had rank inflation, and implied that's a bad thing. But H3 also had some of the healthiest population ever, so clearly it wasn't that bad...
Look now that we have thrown our points around to 343. We now wait again to see what happens. Will there be new maps. will there be oddball. will there ever be a ranking system to be proud to be a champ. Nice try.
ZaedynFel wrote:
“Thank you! What does this mean now for the HaloWC Oddball Preview playlist?”Later this week, the HaloWC Oddball Preview playlist will be swapped with the Fall HCS settings, with the same maps and game types that were featured least season.
You mean "last" season?
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
Josh, you guys are operating under the assumption that it's the weapon/radar settings that dictate playlist health, and why HCS population has continually dropped, but as others have started discussing, that may be a faulty (or at least incomplete) assumption. Moving the playlist to the top spot in the list may help, but I suspect that the bigger barrier to a healthy HCS population is the "rank and skill morale" issue. And I think this issue affects the other ranked playlists too (where players leave for unranked WZ, BTB, Fiesta, etc.). In short, people get turned off from playlists where they get -Yoink- on. And even more so if they're getting -Yoink- on by ranks they perceive as already "low". Humans are emotionally-driven beings, and don't want to feel ashamed or unskilled playing a "game". This is something H5 has failed badly at. It's also why many people clamor for more "social" playlist offerings.

There are several key factors you can address to help here:
  1. HCS ranks are severely depressed relative to other ranked playlists. In part, this is because you designed the system so every playlist would have a bell curve of CSRs with average around Gold6/Plat1. But the HCS population is far higher skill than average, so a player used to platinum ranks will only be silver/gold in HCS. You would be much better off equalizing the CSRs between playlists - so someone who plays with a diamond 2 skill in Team Arena would likely land around diamond 2 in HCS, slayer, and other ranked playlists. This doesn't artificially inflate ranks, nor does it cheapen high ranks. It simply makes ranks more accurate and consistent accross all playlists. And it increases the incentive for people to play the HCS playlist.
  2. Because of seasonal resets, population atrition, and tweaks to the MMR boundaries for CSR bins, all of the H5 ranked playlists have experienced severe "rank deflation" over the life of this game, which is a huge hit to the morale of an average player, and drives people away from ranked playlists (especially HCS where this problem is worst). If someone is getting better at the game over time (or at least maintaining their skill), but dropping in rank, that's demoralizing and demotivating to stay in ranked play. Again, this is because as lower-skill players drop out of the playlist, you force the average CSR back to gold6/plat1, depressing everyone else's ranks. Economists have known for a century or more that deflation is bad for the economy, while a low level of inflation is good for the economy, in part because people get raises and feel richer even if their buying power remains the same. Same principle with ranks. People get pissed off because their ranks are dropping despite their best efforts, and they say "screw it" and stop playing the playlist that makes them feel bad about themselves. Or they don't play for fear of further dropping their rank. To fix this, try to calibrate the CSR boundaries every season such that people can maintain or very slowly increase their rank over many seasons, because they're likely maintaining or improving their skill over time. Again, this doesn't cheapen ranks because the truly elite players will ALWAYS rise to the high onyx ranks, above their competition. But it makes average players more likely to play. You're motivated to play ranked if you feel you have a chance to increase your rank, and vice-versa.
  3. Smurfs and alt accounts also have a horrible effect, probably much larger than you realize based on your past comments that "there aren't that many smurfs". They deflate CSR (because better players are more likely to have alt accounts, so they skew the bell curve), and even a few experiences playing against smurfs is enough to drive average players from a playlist, because it's so toxic and frustrating. Consider limiting ranked play to XBL Gold accounts only, while also helping loosen parameters so the highest-ranked players can find games without smurfing. OR, you could ignore non-XBL-Gold accounts when computing all CSR boundaries, to combat the rank-deflation smurfs cause.
TL;DR - What you guys need to understand is that it doesn't take much for the average player to get emotionally frustrated with halo and simply drop it for other games that make them "feel" better. While Halo prides itself on having a high skill gap and competitive settings, you ALSO need to not alienate average gamers if you want a large population and good playlist health. Getting wrecked just a few times by low-ranked players or smurfs may be enough to make the average player un-install the game and move on to another title. You need to give the average players a reason to remain emotionally connected to this game. You need to find ways to make this game FEEL more rewarding and fun for the masses, and help players actually feel like they're getting better. And tweaking ranks around the issues I mention would help a lot (so would new maps and content). You have said that H3 had rank inflation, and implied that's a bad thing. But H3 also had some of the healthiest population ever, so clearly it wasn't that bad...
The thing with that is, when you have an account that has Gold set as home. All accounts on that Xbox have Gold. Same as being signed in to an account with Gold :(

I thought of how League does it. They have a duo/solo queue, and Flex queue. That would be so perfect for HCS. That way we know we're are not being preyed on by higher ranks or To4s matching a bunch of complete randoms. I feel like it would work really good. Keep it all one search playlist but just as we switch "Balanced", "Expanded", and "Focused", we switch from duo/solo queue and Flex or whatever or even when you have 3 players in your lobby you no longer can select Solo/Duo queue anymore. There are so many ways to go about fixing the smurf issue they just don't listen to what would be best for us unless they think of it -_-
Hey Josh, solid post. Happy to see people got what they wanted for HWC 18.

My advice is to simply abandon the hunt for BR/GF starts and to simply reformat Ranked Arena play, focusing around Magnum-only/Ability Tracker load outs.

People want consistency and direction. There is a lack of consistency between Ranked Arena playlists, there is a lack of consistency in matchmaking search times and quality of matches, and there is a lack of consistency in 343's cadence of updates and what they intend to do with each one. There is no direction to be seen regarding where sandbox and map design are going.

ZaedynFel wrote:
1. To achieve this, we asked the designers who designed our most successful playlists to help us design a playlist that was competitive but also as successful as our other playlists, while keeping the recent emphasis on precision vs. automatic-driven gameplay.

2. The BR/Gunfighter combo strikes a balance between being powerful enough to answer most threats, but not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map.
1. Since when are there different designers working on different Arena playlists? Before the Summer/Fall HCS settings split, Team Arena/HCS were one in the same. Did these people forget how to develop competitive settings? Why are they trying to craft an entirely different/new/abstract experience, rather than tuning Team Arena to optimize for fun, balanced, and competitive gameplay? If the goal is to unify everything, Team Arena and HCS aren't that different.

Reduce the amount of Ranked playlists, adopt a universal settings set (Magnum-only/Ability Tracker) for Team Arena, Doubles, and FFA, and move things like SWAT, Slayer, and Snipers to Social, where they can preserve their own settings and leaved Ranked play for competitive settings.The Splinter Grenade can work competitively if it's placed delicately and intelligently for its role, the SMG can work on the map as an automatic pickup in Magnum-only play, but not if we're also trying to shoehorn in Storm Rifles and Silenced ARs as pickups. Everything needs to have its purpose and an excess of precision and automatic weapons overcomplicates things. Save the Assault Rifle for Social Arena loadouts and playlists. Get the Storm Rifle out.

2. Once again, I think you (or whoever provided you with that information) are misinterpreting what a healthy Halo sandbox should look like. Weapons should not always be persistent upgrades that must be picked up on the map. The utility weapon, or starting weapon, should be a consistent, mechanical skill-oriented, low perfect TTK, high average TTK precision weapon. Secondary weapons have to be thought of delicately (AR, etc.). When the sandbox includes literally seven precision weapons (+ variants), it somewhat clogs up the sandbox and removes the niche role of the starting weapon, which is designed to empower players—one of the most important pillars of a competitive game..

The Magnum doesn't overpower the Hydra, the Sniper Rifle (which overpowers everything, by the way), the Scattershot, the Plasma Caster, Rockets, etc.
These are all unique weapons that can fit unique roles with the right weapon placements. We don't need to overpopulate maps with duplicate weapons just to increase the amount of times players are picking up weapons. Powerups are also sandbox items that are being colossally underutilized.

Each weapon should have value and suit a unique role. They should change the way players approach the map, their movement, and the way they duel their opponents. When the BR, Carbine, Gunfighter Magnum, Regular Magnum, Light Rifle, behave nearly all the same, you've diluted the value of weapon pickups. Saying 'not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map' is exemplary of the problem of the oversaturated sandbox.
ZaedynFel wrote:
While working on that tuning, we decided to put up an HCS playlist in the mean time since we had split the settings from Team Arena. We kept Team Arena because we had a concern that the HCS settings would not be popular enough to replace Team Arena, and that we should wait and monitor the performance of both playlists over time before making a decision on what to do next.

Over the course of the intervening months, we closely monitored the health of the HCS, Team Arena, and other playlists relative to those. We considered which playlists had seen attention over that period, and which didn’t. By all measures over that period, the HCS list performed increasing poorly. It was the only playlist that didn’t increase in population over the summer even though other playlists (including Team Arena) that had been given no new modes or maps did.

Because of this history, we have a concern that match time and match quality will continue to decrease in the HCS playlist.

We feel more people playing our main settings hopefully means more players understanding them, more players interested in watching them, and more players interesting in competing on them.

To achieve this, we asked the designers who designed our most successful playlists to help us design a playlist that was competitive but also as successful as our other playlists, while keeping the recent emphasis on precision vs. automatic-driven gameplay. The BR/Gunfighter combo strikes a balance between being powerful enough to answer most threats, but not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map.
All of this makes me concerned for the future of the Team Arena playlist. I have been a proponent for merging them in the past, but as time has gone by, and I have been playing more of the Team Arena list I have come to appreciate what it has to offer. The variety of weapons is my main draw to it.

I understand the population of the HCS playlist and the matchmaking quality is a concern, but I believe the idea of having a playlist where CTF and Strongholds is offered with only HCS settings is a bad idea.

I don't know how you can resolve this. The MLG/HCS/Throwdown playlist has historically been one of the lowest populated playlists. I don't believe this will be resolved with having it at the top, or even with merging them. They would be temporary fixes to an ongoing problem. Casual players who might enjoy watching and occasionally playing in that playlist don't want that to be the only option.
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I actually prefer the Br. Its needs to come back like h2 and h3. Tired of mags, the weapon is just boring now. It has no appeal like the Br did back in the day. Btw this is all from a viewer's perspective since I don't really play anymore (h5 is now boring to play for me), but im a huge fan of the competitive scene since the mlg days. im just ready for a new game althoug im scared you may botch it. Maybe you'll copy COD again and go back to traditional halo.
Please just put the weapons back the way they were. They all feel worse now, especially the BR. How you guys thought decreasing the RoF so dramatically was a in any way a good thing is beyond me. It's so hard to have fun in H5 now.
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DaxSeven09 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
All of this makes me concerned for the future of the Team Arena playlist. I have been a proponent for merging them in the past, but as time has gone by, and I have been playing more of the Team Arena list I have come to appreciate what it has to offer. The variety of weapons is my main draw to it.

I understand the population of the HCS playlist and the matchmaking quality is a concern, but I believe the idea of having a playlist where CTF and Strongholds is offered with only HCS settings is a bad idea.

I don't know how you can resolve this. The MLG/HCS/Throwdown playlist has historically been one of the lowest populated playlists. I don't believe this will be resolved with having it at the top, or even with merging them. They would be temporary fixes to an ongoing problem. Casual players who might enjoy watching and occasionally playing in that playlist don't want that to be the only option.
Here is a potential solution to perhaps try out:

  • The HCS playlist simply gets renamed as the Team Arena playlist and have it at the top of the Ranked offerings. This playlist could feature Pistol only starts, the Abilities Tracker, limited maps, modes, and the specific weapons HCS wants (probably no autos). Playlist health be damned -- forget about what the trending numbers indicate -- players will just need to understand the potential matchmaking issues they will face when venturing into this lower-population playlist. Maybe removing the HCS title off of it and moving it to the top of the Ranked options will help it sustain more population than it currently does or maybe it doesn't (I'd venture a guess and say it doesn't), but give it a try and see how it does.
  • Provide a non-slayer based Objective only playlist that features Pistol and AR starts, the Motion Tracker(?), a variety of pick-up weapons including autos, all the developer maps along with CTF, Strongholds, Assault, and Oddball. Effectively the current Team Arena playlist would turn into this Team Objective playlist. Watch to see how the population trends over time in order to better assess whether a different method needs to be tried for providing non-slayer based objectives under the ranked environment and not only in such a restrictive manner as is the case with the HCS inspired playlist -- maybe that's to rotate the individual modes per season or to again attempt a broadening/blending of the HCS inspired playlist.
  • Maintain and update the Team Slayer playlist by adding all the developer maps into it and perhaps refresh the pick-up weapons, but keep it Pistol and AR starts along with the Motion Tracker(?).
  • Maintain and update the SWAT playlist by adding all the developer maps into it.
  • Maintain and update the Doubles playlist by adding the Abilities Tracker to it, but keep it Pistol and AR starts.
  • Maintain and update the FFA playlist by adding the Abilities Tracker to it, but also keep it Pistol and AR starts.
  • Bump the Breakout playlist to the Social environment where JiP is present and you can blend the old and new settings together with perhaps some new custom community maps too; plus, you could even rotate it with the Extermination playlist every couple of weeks.
  • Remove the Snipers playlist from the ranked environment in order to bring back Shotty Snips under the social environment which also tends to include a wider variety of maps (including custom community maps).
  • Refresh the Action Sack playlist to include aspects of past Featured playlists that were somewhat silly in nature such as Rock'n Rails, Rocket Party, Mythic Shotty Snips, Multi-Team modified for 2-player teams, and a modified 4v4 version of Castle Wars so that it (1) purges bad Action Sack game-types, and (2) frees up the Featured slot to allow playlists like Modern Throwback (past title map + mode remakes w/ H5 abilities), Classic Throwback (past title map + mode remakes w/ classic movement settings), and Community Skirmish (aka original custom maps) to rotate in and out over each other every week or two. Also, it would be great if you guys (343i) could provide the custom community a cleaned-up and properly working version of 1-sided Flag and Bomb modes so that they can also be incorporated into the Throwback and Community Skirmish playlists.
When they had MLG settings in Halo3. It was used for Scrims and diehards that used mics and had callouts i never ventured in there because i knew i would be laughed at. Now Hcs is a place to smurf and rekt lower tier players. I have watched enough twitch to see it for myself. Do i think its right no i dont. Now if you want to smurf spend another 50 bucks to get a new account. its easy to get another account and get a TO4 with your buddies with smurf accounts to go make themselves look like gods or get some good shots for a montage. i love the H3 throwback and the Halo CE throwback feels very even on both sides. HCS is not even close to being a H3. when HCS first came out i was diamond and loving it. now im a Gold or Silver most of the time and hit Plat once in awhile. I have started back to playing BOTG and loving it. few glitches and spawns are rough but the gunplay for the most has been pretty even.
eLantern wrote:
DaxSeven09 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
All of this makes me concerned for the future of the Team Arena playlist. I have been a proponent for merging them in the past, but as time has gone by, and I have been playing more of the Team Arena list I have come to appreciate what it has to offer. The variety of weapons is my main draw to it.

I understand the population of the HCS playlist and the matchmaking quality is a concern, but I believe the idea of having a playlist where CTF and Strongholds is offered with only HCS settings is a bad idea.

I don't know how you can resolve this. The MLG/HCS/Throwdown playlist has historically been one of the lowest populated playlists. I don't believe this will be resolved with having it at the top, or even with merging them. They would be temporary fixes to an ongoing problem. Casual players who might enjoy watching and occasionally playing in that playlist don't want that to be the only option.
Here is a potential solution to perhaps try out:
  • The HCS playlist simply gets renamed as the Team Arena playlist and have it at the top of the Ranked offerings. This playlist could feature Pistol only starts, the Abilities Tracker, limited maps, modes, and the specific weapons HCS wants (probably no autos). Playlist health be damned -- forget about what the trending numbers indicate -- players will just need to understand the potential matchmaking issues they will face when venturing into this lower-population playlist. Maybe removing the HCS title off of it and moving it to the top of the Ranked option will help it sustain more population than it currently does or maybe it doesn't, but give it a try and see how it does.
  • Provide a non-slayer based Objective only playlist that features Pistol and AR starts, the Motion Tracker, a variety of pick-up weapons including autos, all the developer maps along with CTF, Strongholds, Assault, Oddball. Effectively the current Team Arena playlist would turn into this Team Objective playlist. Watch to see how the population trends over time in order to better assess whether a different method needs to be tried for providing non-slayer based objectives to the player base or to again attempt a broadening of the HCS inspired playlist.
    Sounds great! Let's do it. I especially like the Team Objective idea.
    I'm just curious, but where is Quinn at in all of this? Why are you being made the spokesman for this taking all the heat when Quinn is really the one who should be in here addressing all these questions and problems.
    Splinter grenades are awesome and need to come back. They're a perfect complement to frags and plasmas and the perfect deterrent of overly aggressive, kamikaze-esqe play.

    I dislike the new BR and the same goes for the Gunfighter. I'd prefer magnum starts with the old BR coming back as a pickup weapon.
    Dear 343
    I would say thank you.
    But you made the mistake
    So ... You're welcome to endure the changes
    LOL
    No, really thank you ♥
    I posted this in the wrong thread earlier, my bad:

    Thanks Josh,

    At first, I was against the change to BR/Gunfighter starts, but after some time playing, I realized that the sky actually wasn’t falling, and that you guys ended up making some pretty damn fun settings. I played about 150 games of the BR/GF starts, and now I hate to see that we’re going back to the previous settings. I felt that overall the game required more skill while also being appealing to a larger population of people vs the previous settings in the HCS playlist. I was definitely a minority amongst competitive players, but I think that most of the backlash from the comp scene was due to not wanting to adjust to this change 2 years in - which was my initial concern as well. But man, after a certain point I simply could not ignore how much better the new settings felt.

    Ive talked to a handful of other comp players who enjoyed the new settings too, but unfortunately we were far out numbered by those who didn’t like the change... I truly hope that BR starts make a return to comp Halo in Halo 6.

    Another thing that many seem to ignore here, is the dire situation we are in with an ever declining HCS playlist population... Reverting back to the older settings surely means that HCS and Arena won’t be merged, therefore we will likely continue to see this decline in HCS indefinitely...

    On that note, it sounds like BR/GF starts aren’t gone for good, is that correct? Does this mean in the near future that all other playlists like Arena, FFA, and Slayer will have these new settings? I don’t plan on competing in 2018, so if that’s the case, I’m pretty sure I’ll be going back to Team Arena and FFA :)

    Thanks for the update. I know you’ve probably had more angry players screaming at you recently than you bargained for... Thanks again!
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