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[Locked] HCS Settings Feedback Update -- November 27

OP ZaedynFel

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This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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I understand you bro. And we need the old H5 BR
Other commentary:

Quote:
There are a few things driving this - one of which is a game based on a single all-powerful weapon (combined with limited maps/modes) tends to start to feel stale. Most of the pros themselves asked for things to be changed up and refreshed, they are getting tired of the same old same old and I think viewers often feel the same way. Since we don't have a stockpile of new maps/content to rotate in, that pretty much leaves starting weapons as one of the biggest variables that can be adjusted (along with hopefully the addition of Oddball, which is TBD).I'm not sure BR/GF is the answer necessarily but it's one shot at mixing things up (that may or may not be more viable following further balance iteration to the BR at least). Clearly it's not ready in its current form based on overwhelming feedback so the team is sticking with the settings we just finished a solid season using (even if they are getting a bit stale in the eyes of many). Yes, it's more of the same, but it's proven and far less risky considering there's going to be $1million on the line.Going forward, who knows what the future will hold but personally, I think the team needs to at least continue exploring new ways to mix things up and continue pushing to grow Halo esports interest, engagement and participation while maintaining a positive matchmaking experience for players. @ske7ch343
To directly respond to Ske7ch's comment about dealing with the stale environment of HCS I would say that in the future including the custom community from the get-go and working more closely with an outfit such as ForgeHub, and perhaps Halo Customs, you might find yourself providing the HCS with a few rotational custom maps which are specifically designed with the HCS's settings and map performance as the top priorities.

This way you could still have your set rotation of specific developer maps that have been proven to play well with the settings, but also rotate-in a custom created map during a tournament (that has proven to test well) in order to help liven up the HCS environment.

These custom created maps could then get added to the HCS inspired MMing playlist to help diversify and expand the potential maps to be played in it.

Of course, you'd want to limit the total number of custom maps that could ever be included within the MMing playlist because you'd want to ensure that the standard developer maps which form the backbone of the competitive tournament environment remain the most likely search outcomes within the playlist, but you could keep a rotation and even bring back favorites that may have gotten phased out of the tournament scene over time.

Anyways, I think you guys should be leaning on the creative potential of your community a bit more for map diversity in a lot of playlists; especially, on the social side.

I am aware that currently you've had issues discovering custom created maps that don't have any performance issues which is a big part of the reason why custom maps haven't been included within the HCS environment or even all that much within the ranked environment.

Another thought with an eye on the future is that perhaps some of the best custom created maps could be used as a template for you guys to create official developer maps from during a title's primary life-cycle so that the lengthy timeline to introduce a developer map during the life-cycle isn't as long as it potentially would or could be.

The H5 Forge is an amazing tool and I think you guys should be maximizing the community's creative force with it like you've sort of done with the BTB playlist -- I can only imagine how much more powerful and interesting the H6 Forge will be and I hope you make effective use of the community regarding it.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Hey everyone, as promised here’s an update on game settings and playlists for the upcoming HaloWC 2018 season. One of our major goals moving forward, and especially for this process, is to make sure we have a more open conversation with players and fans, and want to continue that today.
“Sounds good, Josh! Can you tell us why you’re testing BR/Gunfighter Magnum starts?”First, earlier this year, the sandbox team started working on a weapon tuning update to address issues including the Splinter Grenade lethality, AR skill gap, and more as we outlined back then. Our intention has always been to resolve those issues, and to bring a more complete sandbox back into the HCS once the tuning was done.
While working on that tuning, we decided to put up an HCS playlist in the mean time since we had split the settings from Team Arena. We kept Team Arena because we had a concern that the HCS settings would not be popular enough to replace Team Arena, and that we should wait and monitor the performance of both playlists over time before making a decision on what to do next.
Over the course of the intervening months, we closely monitored the health of the HCS, Team Arena, and other playlists relative to those. We considered which playlists had seen attention over that period, and which didn’t. By all measures over that period, the HCS list performed increasing poorly. It was the only playlist that didn’t increase in population over the summer even though other playlists (including Team Arena) that had been given no new modes or maps did.
Because of this history, we have a concern that match time and match quality will continue to decrease in the HCS playlist.
We feel more people playing our main settings hopefully means more players understanding them, more players interested in watching them, and more players interesting in competing on them.
To achieve this, we asked the designers who designed our most successful playlists to help us design a playlist that was competitive but also as successful as our other playlists, while keeping the recent emphasis on precision vs. automatic-driven gameplay. The BR/Gunfighter combo strikes a balance between being powerful enough to answer most threats, but not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map.
“Got it. For the upcoming Halo World Championship season, which starting weapons will be featured?”While we are still concerned about HCS playlist health and will be monitoring it closely, your feedback has been clear that the BR/Gunfighter combo needs additional testing and iteration and we’ll continue to do that separately. Given the timeline until Halo World Championship competition kicks off, the HaloWC 2018 season will feature Magnum starts. Also, the current weapon tuning will be in effect, meaning things like improved Active Camo effectiveness will be featured in competitive play and there’s future potential to re-introduce changes like the adjusted Splinter Grenades, Grenade Launcher, and Energy Sword movement if they are well-received.
“Thank you! What does this mean now for the HaloWC Oddball Preview playlist?”Later this week, the HaloWC Oddball Preview playlist will be swapped with the Fall HCS settings, with the same maps and game types that were featured least season.
“Got it. HaloWC is drawing near and we don’t really know what to play when we want to practice or try out a new team – what can you tell us?”It’s safe to continue practicing on the same settings that were used in the Fall season. We’ve just received results from the latest Oddball pro player survey, and are actively reviewing with design teams to evaluate where we can move forward.
“Ok, thanks for the update, Josh!” No problem!

--Josh
This crap “update” is worse than a politician trying to dodge a question. The only thing that was said definitively was that the magnum will be the starting weapon. I’ve said this other places so I will say it here, the customer/consumer makes a product popular not the developer/publishers. The magnum starting weapon is not the only thing that’s wrong with this game post update. Give the customers/consumers what they want and if that’s not possible just say it and be straight forward. If you don’t want to give the customers want they want just say so and be straight forward about that as well.
Quote:
There are a few things driving this - one of which is a game based on a single all-powerful weapon (combined with limited maps/modes) tends to start to feel stale. Most of the pros themselves asked for things to be changed up and refreshed, they are getting tired of the same old same old and I think viewers often feel the same way. Since we don't have a stockpile of new maps/content to rotate in, that pretty much leaves starting weapons as one of the biggest variables that can be adjusted (along with hopefully the addition of Oddball, which is TBD).
@ske7ch343
I don't get this thinking. Now instead of the magnum, we get to watch pros play with BR starts on the same maps/modes that we've been watching for the past two years. Sooo, interesting.

If you want to make the game less stale and get more people interested, then add new maps and gametypes. KOTH, Oddball, Extraction and Assault to name some and people should've been making maps a long time ago.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Quote:
There are a few things driving this - one of which is a game based on a single all-powerful weapon (combined with limited maps/modes) tends to start to feel stale. Most of the pros themselves asked for things to be changed up and refreshed, they are getting tired of the same old same old and I think viewers often feel the same way. Since we don't have a stockpile of new maps/content to rotate in, that pretty much leaves starting weapons as one of the biggest variables that can be adjusted (along with hopefully the addition of Oddball, which is TBD).@ske7ch343
I don't get this thinking. Now instead of the magnum, we get to watch pros play with BR starts on the same maps/modes that we've been watching for the past two years. Sooo, interesting.

If you want to make the game less stale and get more people interested, then add new maps and gametypes. KOTH, Oddball, Extraction and Assault to name some and people should've been making maps a long time ago.
To my knowledge there are no accepted 'competitive' caliber Forge maps out in the community to tap into and the team here is building a new game so new "developer maps" are out of the question (for the foreseeable future at least). I hope we get Oddball in there at a minimum. Plenty of pros have asked that the team here explore changing up loadouts and starting weapons to mix things up so that's partly where this originated from - there was a desire for change. Turns out this particular BR/GF combo, combined with the re-tuned variations, didn't hit the mark.
You have no idea what you're doing. You're asking the players that stayed why did players leave. I'm sure the answer is there and you'll find it. Ask one of the players that left because I can honestly tell you as somebody that checks back in every couple of months, statements like the following

"there’s future potential to re-introduce changes like the adjusted Splinter Grenades, Grenade Launcher, and Energy Sword movement if they are well-received."

Are why we left and will continue to laugh and cry about the franchise that used to be. The fact you think it matters at all whether it's br or magnum just continues to show a lack of care. Pistol is one of the few things Halo 5 did right. Remove autos. Remove radar. Remove abilities. Remove sprint. Remove large maps. Remove all that crap and players come back. Go back to the first and maybe only time 343i has ever listened to the community. Halo Reach NBNS. NBNS = No bloom no sprint. Look at that success. If you want to know why players left give me a ring. I'll be waiting. Maybe one day you guys will get a clue, but I don't really blame you Josh at least you're trying.
ske7ch wrote:
To my knowledge there are no accepted 'competitive' caliber Forge maps out in the community to tap into and the team here is building a new game so new "developer maps" are out of the question (for the foreseeable future at least). I hope we get Oddball in there at a minimum. Plenty of pros have asked that the team here explore changing up loadouts and starting weapons to mix things up so that's partly where this originated from - there was a desire for change. Turns out this particular BR/GF combo, combined with the re-tuned variations, didn't hit the mark.
Thanks for responding, but that's disappointing to here. I do remember pros like Ryanoob testing some Forge maps a while back, but I didn't know what the outcome of it was. Oddball would be a welcome addition.

Since you're reading the thread, can you provide any kind of update for any of the issues that people mentioned in your Hotfix thread besides the freezing issue? The frame dropping on Forge maps is still a problem.
ske7ch wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Quote:
There are a few things driving this - one of which is a game based on a single all-powerful weapon (combined with limited maps/modes) tends to start to feel stale. Most of the pros themselves asked for things to be changed up and refreshed, they are getting tired of the same old same old and I think viewers often feel the same way. Since we don't have a stockpile of new maps/content to rotate in, that pretty much leaves starting weapons as one of the biggest variables that can be adjusted (along with hopefully the addition of Oddball, which is TBD).@ske7ch343
I don't get this thinking. Now instead of the magnum, we get to watch pros play with BR starts on the same maps/modes that we've been watching for the past two years. Sooo, interesting.

If you want to make the game less stale and get more people interested, then add new maps and gametypes. KOTH, Oddball, Extraction and Assault to name some and people should've been making maps a long time ago.
To my knowledge there are no accepted 'competitive' caliber Forge maps out in the community to tap into and the team here is building a new game so new "developer maps" are out of the question (for the foreseeable future at least). I hope we get Oddball in there at a minimum. Plenty of pros have asked that the team here explore changing up loadouts and starting weapons to mix things up so that's partly where this originated from - there was a desire for change. Turns out this particular BR/GF combo, combined with the re-tuned variations, didn't hit the mark.
What's strange to me , is the sentiment that the magnum was "an all powerful weapon". It was more difficult to use than every other rifle and only with perfect execution could you get a similar killtime as the other rifles. It was useless against autos up close. The only reason it dominated the kill feed is because everyone started with one. No matter what the starting weapon is, it will probably dominate the killfeed.

If the goal was to spice up the sandbox, simply tweaking the damage, consistency and aim-assist on precision weapons won't do the trick. At the end of the day, they are still safe analogues of the magnum.

Pickup weapons need to be vastly different in functionality from what players start with. Just some suggestions:

  • Carbine does very low damage per shot, but each shot has a degenerative property that causes the victim to take sheild damage every second. This prevents their shield from recharging even when they are safe behind cover. Effect stays until their shield depletes or the shooter dies/drops the gun.
  • DMR marks anyone who is shot for 4 seconds aiding teammates attempting to follow up on kills.
  • BR has a longer min TTK than the magnum but a lower averageTTK thanks to aim-assist Burst fire and scope make it ideal for challenging ranged weapons
  • Boltshot has a weak primary fire mode, but when charged lets out a shortrange 1HK.
Maybe in practice, these wouldn't work out so well, but this is the kind of philosophy that needs to be "tested" instead of just playing with damage and aim-assist values to arbitrarily entice people to switch weapons. People would pick these up and use them even if they are "weaker" than the magnum, because they alter the match dynamics in other ways.
ske7ch wrote:
To my knowledge there are no accepted 'competitive' caliber Forge maps out in the community to tap into and the team here is building a new game so new "developer maps" are out of the question (for the foreseeable future at least). I hope we get Oddball in there at a minimum. Plenty of pros have asked that the team here explore changing up loadouts and starting weapons to mix things up so that's partly where this originated from - there was a desire for change. Turns out this particular BR/GF combo, combined with the re-tuned variations, didn't hit the mark.
I don’t like to be negative but, as far as I can tell, the need for additional maps and modes was apparent after the World Championships in March 2016. What has everyone been doing since then?

Apparently, untold hours and energy went into new developer maps (Overgrowth, Riptide, Torque, Tyrant, Stasis, Molten, Mercy), as well as countless updates and iterations of Breakout, with inadequate outside input and consideration given to the company’s flagship eSports program. Additionally, I have a difficult time understanding how the Forge Community, if properly engaged over the past year and a half, could not have created some viable options.

In my opinion, HCS will only be successful if 343’s management takes it seriously. Allocating the resources necessary to “mix things up” demonstrates commitment and is a good place to start.
RyInfinity wrote:
Hey Josh, solid post. Happy to see people got what they wanted for HWC 18.

My advice is to simply abandon the hunt for BR/GF starts and to simply reformat Ranked Arena play, focusing around Magnum-only/Ability Tracker load outs.People want consistency and direction. There is a lack of consistency between Ranked Arena playlists, there is a lack of consistency in matchmaking search times and quality of matches, and there is a lack of consistency in 343's cadence of updates and what they intend to do with each one. There is no direction to be seen regarding where sandbox and map design are going.

ZaedynFel wrote:
1. To achieve this, we asked the designers who designed our most successful playlists to help us design a playlist that was competitive but also as successful as our other playlists, while keeping the recent emphasis on precision vs. automatic-driven gameplay.

2. The BR/Gunfighter combo strikes a balance between being powerful enough to answer most threats, but not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map.
1. Since when are there different designers working on different Arena playlists? Before the Summer/Fall HCS settings split, Team Arena/HCS were one in the same. Did these people forget how to develop competitive settings? Why are they trying to craft an entirely different/new/abstract experience, rather than tuning Team Arena to optimize for fun, balanced, and competitive gameplay? If the goal is to unify everything, Team Arena and HCS aren't that different.

Reduce the amount of Ranked playlists, adopt a universal settings set (Magnum-only/Ability Tracker) for Team Arena, Doubles, and FFA, and move things like SWAT, Slayer, and Snipers to Social, where they can preserve their own settings and leaved Ranked play for competitive settings.The Splinter Grenade can work competitively if it's placed delicately and intelligently for its role, the SMG can work on the map as an automatic pickup in Magnum-only play, but not if we're also trying to shoehorn in Storm Rifles and Silenced ARs as pickups. Everything needs to have its purpose and an excess of precision and automatic weapons overcomplicates things. Save the Assault Rifle for Social Arena loadouts and playlists. Get the Storm Rifle out.

2. Once again, I think you (or whoever provided you with that information) are misinterpreting what a healthy Halo sandbox should look like. Weapons should not always be persistent upgrades that must be picked up on the map. The utility weapon, or starting weapon, should be a consistent, mechanical skill-oriented, low perfect TTK, high average TTK precision weapon. Secondary weapons have to be thought of delicately (AR, etc.). When the sandbox includes literally seven precision weapons (+ variants), it somewhat clogs up the sandbox and removes the niche role of the starting weapon, which is designed to empower players—one of the most important pillars of a competitive game..

The Magnum doesn't overpower the Hydra, the Sniper Rifle (which overpowers everything, by the way), the Scattershot, the Plasma Caster, Rockets, etc.
These are all unique weapons that can fit unique roles with the right weapon placements. We don't need to overpopulate maps with duplicate weapons just to increase the amount of times players are picking up weapons. Powerups are also sandbox items that are being colossally underutilized.

Each weapon should have value and suit a unique role. They should change the way players approach the map, their movement, and the way they duel their opponents. When the BR, Carbine, Gunfighter Magnum, Regular Magnum, Light Rifle, behave nearly all the same, you've diluted the value of weapon pickups. Saying 'not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map' is exemplary of the problem of the oversaturated sandbox.
I agree with most of your thoughts. But are you saying to take Arena Slayer out of ranks? And only make it a social playlist? You do realize Arena Slayer is one of if not the most popular playlist H5 has when it comes to ranks don't you? Slayer has to stay a ranked playlist. Slayer has to stay in a ranked format. Its way to scary to even think of pulling that list out of any ranked type play. this is a shooter game. I totally understand the HCS should have its own playlist with a mix. But taking out slayer out of ranks is just a no go! Really the issue runs much deeper then ranked playlist. You have to ask yourself why is the over all population so low across all playlists? This weapon tune hasn't helped that either. Along with many other things 343i has done.
RyInfinity wrote:
Hey Josh, solid post. Happy to see people got what they wanted for HWC 18.

My advice is to simply abandon the hunt for BR/GF starts and to simply reformat Ranked Arena play, focusing around Magnum-only/Ability Tracker load outs.People want consistency and direction. There is a lack of consistency between Ranked Arena playlists, there is a lack of consistency in matchmaking search times and quality of matches, and there is a lack of consistency in 343's cadence of updates and what they intend to do with each one. There is no direction to be seen regarding where sandbox and map design are going.

ZaedynFel wrote:
1. To achieve this, we asked the designers who designed our most successful playlists to help us design a playlist that was competitive but also as successful as our other playlists, while keeping the recent emphasis on precision vs. automatic-driven gameplay.

2. The BR/Gunfighter combo strikes a balance between being powerful enough to answer most threats, but not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map.
1. Since when are there different designers working on different Arena playlists? Before the Summer/Fall HCS settings split, Team Arena/HCS were one in the same. Did these people forget how to develop competitive settings? Why are they trying to craft an entirely different/new/abstract experience, rather than tuning Team Arena to optimize for fun, balanced, and competitive gameplay? If the goal is to unify everything, Team Arena and HCS aren't that different.

Reduce the amount of Ranked playlists, adopt a universal settings set (Magnum-only/Ability Tracker) for Team Arena, Doubles, and FFA, and move things like SWAT, Slayer, and Snipers to Social, where they can preserve their own settings and leaved Ranked play for competitive settings.The Splinter Grenade can work competitively if it's placed delicately and intelligently for its role, the SMG can work on the map as an automatic pickup in Magnum-only play, but not if we're also trying to shoehorn in Storm Rifles and Silenced ARs as pickups. Everything needs to have its purpose and an excess of precision and automatic weapons overcomplicates things. Save the Assault Rifle for Social Arena loadouts and playlists. Get the Storm Rifle out.

2. Once again, I think you (or whoever provided you with that information) are misinterpreting what a healthy Halo sandbox should look like. Weapons should not always be persistent upgrades that must be picked up on the map. The utility weapon, or starting weapon, should be a consistent, mechanical skill-oriented, low perfect TTK, high average TTK precision weapon. Secondary weapons have to be thought of delicately (AR, etc.). When the sandbox includes literally seven precision weapons (+ variants), it somewhat clogs up the sandbox and removes the niche role of the starting weapon, which is designed to empower players—one of the most important pillars of a competitive game..

The Magnum doesn't overpower the Hydra, the Sniper Rifle (which overpowers everything, by the way), the Scattershot, the Plasma Caster, Rockets, etc.
These are all unique weapons that can fit unique roles with the right weapon placements. We don't need to overpopulate maps with duplicate weapons just to increase the amount of times players are picking up weapons. Powerups are also sandbox items that are being colossally underutilized.

Each weapon should have value and suit a unique role. They should change the way players approach the map, their movement, and the way they duel their opponents. When the BR, Carbine, Gunfighter Magnum, Regular Magnum, Light Rifle, behave nearly all the same, you've diluted the value of weapon pickups. Saying 'not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map' is exemplary of the problem of the oversaturated sandbox.
I agree with most of your thoughts. But are you saying to take Arena Slayer out of ranks? And only make it a social playlist? You do realize Arena Slayer is one of if not the most popular playlist H5 has when it comes to ranks don't you? Slayer has to stay a ranked playlist. Slayer has to stay in a ranked format. Its way to scary to even think of taking that out.
It's just an easier version of Team Arena, though. It over-saturates Ranked Arena's offerings, its a duplicate experience, and that's bad for population. "Ranked play" should offer the most competitive experiences available.

The Slayer playlist is good and popular because it offers pure 100% Slayer, not because it has ranks. Plus, the community is always asking for a Social Slayer playlist. This would be killing two birds with one stone. The playlist would exist exactly the same in Social, and have similar matchmaking.
Thank you so much for your help!!!
RyInfinity wrote:
RyInfinity wrote:
Hey Josh, solid post. Happy to see people got what they wanted for HWC 18.

My advice is to simply abandon the hunt for BR/GF starts and to simply reformat Ranked Arena play, focusing around Magnum-only/Ability Tracker load outs.People want consistency and direction. There is a lack of consistency between Ranked Arena playlists, there is a lack of consistency in matchmaking search times and quality of matches, and there is a lack of consistency in 343's cadence of updates and what they intend to do with each one. There is no direction to be seen regarding where sandbox and map design are going.

ZaedynFel wrote:
1. To achieve this, we asked the designers who designed our most successful playlists to help us design a playlist that was competitive but also as successful as our other playlists, while keeping the recent emphasis on precision vs. automatic-driven gameplay.

2. The BR/Gunfighter combo strikes a balance between being powerful enough to answer most threats, but not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map.
1. Since when are there different designers working on different Arena playlists? Before the Summer/Fall HCS settings split, Team Arena/HCS were one in the same. Did these people forget how to develop competitive settings? Why are they trying to craft an entirely different/new/abstract experience, rather than tuning Team Arena to optimize for fun, balanced, and competitive gameplay? If the goal is to unify everything, Team Arena and HCS aren't that different.

Reduce the amount of Ranked playlists, adopt a universal settings set (Magnum-only/Ability Tracker) for Team Arena, Doubles, and FFA, and move things like SWAT, Slayer, and Snipers to Social, where they can preserve their own settings and leaved Ranked play for competitive settings.The Splinter Grenade can work competitively if it's placed delicately and intelligently for its role, the SMG can work on the map as an automatic pickup in Magnum-only play, but not if we're also trying to shoehorn in Storm Rifles and Silenced ARs as pickups. Everything needs to have its purpose and an excess of precision and automatic weapons overcomplicates things. Save the Assault Rifle for Social Arena loadouts and playlists. Get the Storm Rifle out.

2. Once again, I think you (or whoever provided you with that information) are misinterpreting what a healthy Halo sandbox should look like. Weapons should not always be persistent upgrades that must be picked up on the map. The utility weapon, or starting weapon, should be a consistent, mechanical skill-oriented, low perfect TTK, high average TTK precision weapon. Secondary weapons have to be thought of delicately (AR, etc.). When the sandbox includes literally seven precision weapons (+ variants), it somewhat clogs up the sandbox and removes the niche role of the starting weapon, which is designed to empower players—one of the most important pillars of a competitive game..

The Magnum doesn't overpower the Hydra, the Sniper Rifle (which overpowers everything, by the way), the Scattershot, the Plasma Caster, Rockets, etc.
These are all unique weapons that can fit unique roles with the right weapon placements. We don't need to overpopulate maps with duplicate weapons just to increase the amount of times players are picking up weapons. Powerups are also sandbox items that are being colossally underutilized.

Each weapon should have value and suit a unique role. They should change the way players approach the map, their movement, and the way they duel their opponents. When the BR, Carbine, Gunfighter Magnum, Regular Magnum, Light Rifle, behave nearly all the same, you've diluted the value of weapon pickups. Saying 'not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map' is exemplary of the problem of the oversaturated sandbox.
I agree with most of your thoughts. But are you saying to take Arena Slayer out of ranks? And only make it a social playlist? You do realize Arena Slayer is one of if not the most popular playlist H5 has when it comes to ranks don't you? Slayer has to stay a ranked playlist. Slayer has to stay in a ranked format. Its way to scary to even think of taking that out.
It's just an easier version of Team Arena, though. It over-saturates Ranked Arena's offerings, its a duplicate experience, and that's bad for population. "Ranked play" should offer the most competitive experiences available.

The Slayer playlist is good and popular because it offers pure 100% Slayer, not because it has ranks. Plus, the community is always asking for a Social Slayer playlist. This would be killing two birds with one stone. The playlist would exist exactly the same in Social, and have similar matchmaking.
That's the thing though. That's why players play it. One because its just slayer and two because it is ranked. The players I play with in slayer like it because its ranked and there is nothing but slayer. We, the friends I play with, like it because of just that. We don't want to play capture the flag and all the other objective type games. Slayer is such a major part in ranked I just cant see it being moved. I'm almost sure Josh had told me in the matchmaking thread that slayer is the most popular.. But even being popular we are not talking the numbers that Halo was once known for. I just think at this stage one has to be very careful at anything major like this. The weapon tune has really hurt this game. And we can already see that 343 is reeling from it and not totally sure what to do next. I personally think moving that out of ranks would be heart wrenching..
If there are no new maps coming and there aren't any accepted competitive forge map that are accepted, why not focus around that?

I mean make a movement to encourage that and try out forge maps. The forge editor is way more powerful that the one in H3 yet H3 had several decent forge maps in its MLG rotation for many years. That is where efforts should be focused.
RyInfinity wrote:
RyInfinity wrote:
Hey Josh, solid post. Happy to see people got what they wanted for HWC 18.

My advice is to simply abandon the hunt for BR/GF starts and to simply reformat Ranked Arena play, focusing around Magnum-only/Ability Tracker load outs.People want consistency and direction. There is a lack of consistency between Ranked Arena playlists, there is a lack of consistency in matchmaking search times and quality of matches, and there is a lack of consistency in 343's cadence of updates and what they intend to do with each one. There is no direction to be seen regarding where sandbox and map design are going.

ZaedynFel wrote:
1. To achieve this, we asked the designers who designed our most successful playlists to help us design a playlist that was competitive but also as successful as our other playlists, while keeping the recent emphasis on precision vs. automatic-driven gameplay.

2. The BR/Gunfighter combo strikes a balance between being powerful enough to answer most threats, but not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map.
1. Since when are there different designers working on different Arena playlists? Before the Summer/Fall HCS settings split, Team Arena/HCS were one in the same. Did these people forget how to develop competitive settings? Why are they trying to craft an entirely different/new/abstract experience, rather than tuning Team Arena to optimize for fun, balanced, and competitive gameplay? If the goal is to unify everything, Team Arena and HCS aren't that different.

Reduce the amount of Ranked playlists, adopt a universal settings set (Magnum-only/Ability Tracker) for Team Arena, Doubles, and FFA, and move things like SWAT, Slayer, and Snipers to Social, where they can preserve their own settings and leaved Ranked play for competitive settings.The Splinter Grenade can work competitively if it's placed delicately and intelligently for its role, the SMG can work on the map as an automatic pickup in Magnum-only play, but not if we're also trying to shoehorn in Storm Rifles and Silenced ARs as pickups. Everything needs to have its purpose and an excess of precision and automatic weapons overcomplicates things. Save the Assault Rifle for Social Arena loadouts and playlists. Get the Storm Rifle out.

2. Once again, I think you (or whoever provided you with that information) are misinterpreting what a healthy Halo sandbox should look like. Weapons should not always be persistent upgrades that must be picked up on the map. The utility weapon, or starting weapon, should be a consistent, mechanical skill-oriented, low perfect TTK, high average TTK precision weapon. Secondary weapons have to be thought of delicately (AR, etc.). When the sandbox includes literally seven precision weapons (+ variants), it somewhat clogs up the sandbox and removes the niche role of the starting weapon, which is designed to empower players—one of the most important pillars of a competitive game..

The Magnum doesn't overpower the Hydra, the Sniper Rifle (which overpowers everything, by the way), the Scattershot, the Plasma Caster, Rockets, etc.
These are all unique weapons that can fit unique roles with the right weapon placements. We don't need to overpopulate maps with duplicate weapons just to increase the amount of times players are picking up weapons. Powerups are also sandbox items that are being colossally underutilized.

Each weapon should have value and suit a unique role. They should change the way players approach the map, their movement, and the way they duel their opponents. When the BR, Carbine, Gunfighter Magnum, Regular Magnum, Light Rifle, behave nearly all the same, you've diluted the value of weapon pickups. Saying 'not being so powerful that there’s no reason to pick up anything on the map' is exemplary of the problem of the oversaturated sandbox.
I agree with most of your thoughts. But are you saying to take Arena Slayer out of ranks? And only make it a social playlist? You do realize Arena Slayer is one of if not the most popular playlist H5 has when it comes to ranks don't you? Slayer has to stay a ranked playlist. Slayer has to stay in a ranked format. Its way to scary to even think of taking that out.
It's just an easier version of Team Arena, though. It over-saturates Ranked Arena's offerings, its a duplicate experience, and that's bad for population. "Ranked play" should offer the most competitive experiences available.

The Slayer playlist is good and popular because it offers pure 100% Slayer, not because it has ranks. Plus, the community is always asking for a Social Slayer playlist. This would be killing two birds with one stone. The playlist would exist exactly the same in Social, and have similar matchmaking.
That's the thing though. That's why players play it. One because its just slayer and two because it is ranked. The players I play with in slayer like it because its ranked and there is nothing but slayer. We, the friends I play with, like it because of just that. We don't want to play capture the flag and all the other objective type games. Slayer is such a major part in ranked I just cant see it being moved. I'm almost sure Josh had told me in the matchmaking thread that slayer is the most popular.. But even being popular we are not talking the numbers that Halo was once known for. I just think at this stage one has to be very careful at anything major like this. The weapon tune has really hurt this game. And we can already see that 343 is reeling from it and not totally sure what to do next. I personally think moving that out of ranks would be heart wrenching..
People will always have there preference for playlist format, but the formula for a successful ranking system and competitive matchmaking environment has been established by other, more successful, AAA games.

Duplicate ranked environments are bad for the weight/value of the ranking system.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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I understand you bro. And we need the old H5 BR
No, we absolutely DO NOT need full reversion back to the old H5 BR. That thing was piss-easy to use and handed out headshots like candy on halloween. They just over did it. They only needed to make it a little harder to use which they did via the RRR, AA and Bullet mag reductions, but then they also made it random, shoot so much slower, and made the AA and Mag variable across the length of its RRR. They only needed to make it a touch harder, not weaker at the same time.
Slayer, Team arena, and the HCS arena need to stay rank. everything else should be social.
Apoll0 wrote:
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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I understand you bro. And we need the old H5 BR
No, we absolutely DO NOT need full reversion back to the old H5 BR. That thing was piss-easy to use and handed out headshots like candy on halloween. They just over did it. They only needed to make it a little harder to use which they did via the RRR, AA and Bullet mag reductions, but then they also made it random, shoot so much slower, and made the AA and Mag variable across the length of its RRR. They only needed to make it a touch harder, not weaker at the same time.
I personally would prefer they go the other direction with the BR - retain the "ease of hitting shots" that the OG H5 BR had (i.e. keep the the auto-aim properties the same to keep it more noob friendly and retain that 'feels nice to shoot' property), but make it less lethal, via a slower RoF and shorten the RRR. As follows:
  • BR should yield a perfect kill slightly slower than 6 magnum shots, so a skilled magnum user will typically beat a BR holder even if they hit all their BR shots.
  • BR 5-shot kill should be roughly equivalent to an 8-shot magnum kill, again to reward magnum skill, and penalize missing shots with the "easy" BR.
  • BR hipfire RRR should be 10% shorter than the H5 magnum RRR.
  • BR scoped RRR should be 5% longer than the scoped tac-mag RRR.
  • BR should not have random spread.
Meanwhile, I feel the carbine should go the opposite direction - keep the high lethality and range that the OG carbine had, but slightly decrease the bullet magnetism at all ranges. So this would be a MORE lethal pickup than the magnum, but harder to use. Also probably need to slightly decrease the scoped RRR (the current nerf is too severe), and eliminate random spread.

That makes both the BR and the carbine worthwhile pickups. One is easier than the magnum but less lethal, one is harder than the magnum but more lethal.

While we might disagree on the specific weapon properties we'd like, I imagine almost everyone here can agree that precision weapon map pickups can't be strictly better or worse than the starting H5 magnum. Some should be easier to use but less lethal, some should be harder to use but more lethal (e.g. sniper).

EDIT - making the magnum a 4-shot as some have suggested would also achieve the goals I state. But the possible problem there is that the sandbox TTK could be overall too short for the maps... I'd need to play-test those settings to see.
Apoll0 wrote:
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
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I understand you bro. And we need the old H5 BR
No, we absolutely DO NOT need full reversion back to the old H5 BR. That thing was piss-easy to use and handed out headshots like candy on halloween. They just over did it. They only needed to make it a little harder to use which they did via the RRR, AA and Bullet mag reductions, but then they also made it random, shoot so much slower, and made the AA and Mag variable across the length of its RRR. They only needed to make it a touch harder, not weaker at the same time.
It's not my fault that you do not know how to do headshots or Perfects bro.
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