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Big Team Battle Refresh Feedback

OP ZaedynFel

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KayMrt wrote:
BTB has always been about vehicles, that's the nature of the thing.
Yes! Thank you. BTB is the place for vehicle play, heavy or otherwise. There are already lots of modes in Halo 5 that cater to sweatier, competitive players who just want to have fights with their loadout weapons on small, vehicle-free maps. BTB doesn't need to be another one of those, so I don't understand why people are asking for less vehicles in it. Just wanted to say that.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
You don't need vehicles to stat and it wouldn't really make them worth using.
What is meant by "stating" in this context?
KayMrt wrote:
BTB has always been about vehicles, that's the nature of the thing.
Yes! Thank you. BTB is the place for vehicle play, heavy or otherwise. There are already lots of modes in Halo 5 that cater to sweatier, competitive players who just want to have fights with their loadout weapons on small, vehicle-free maps. BTB doesn't need to be another one of those, so I don't understand why people are asking for less vehicles in it. Just wanted to say that.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
You don't need vehicles to stat and it wouldn't really make them worth using.
What is meant by "stating" in this context?
I feel like vehicles used to be easier to take down though. With a shield it is much more difficult, especially if you are solo queuing and no one on your team is shooting at them but you. I remember in H2 the vehicles were way easy to take out in BTB. I never got in them for that reason, unless it was a hog to move a flag. Stating is when an opposing team does not go for the objective and just slays you.
@Ahvvi
The strength or weakness of the vehicle isn’t the only thing that matters. If there were 16 lasers on every BTB map it wouldn’t matter how powerful the vics were. They’d still get crushed. Balancing is what matters.
Wasps and scorps are devastatingly powerful, easy to use moderately well, and should be added in sparingly on maps with strong vic counter weapons. Although that really just makes for slow, tired gameplay in most cases. So I’m honestly not interested in seeing those vics on most maps.
The rest of the vehicles, however, are either weaker or harder to use effectively, and can be more easily balanced without turning the match into a defensive grind of vics vs. lasers. This isn’t to say that they are currently well balanced, because they’re really not on most maps. But hopefully they’re about to be.
What is meant by "stating" in this context?
I took it to mean a team using vehicles to help stat pad, but it could've also meant just a vehicle getting a lot of kills on its own although I don't really consider that statting if the team is playing normally.
Ahvvi wrote:
I feel like vehicles used to be easier to take down though. With a shield it is much more difficult, especially if you are solo queuing and no one on your team is shooting at them but you. I remember in H2 the vehicles were way easy to take out in BTB. I never got in them for that reason, unless it was a hog to move a flag.
Personally, I think it's fine if the vehicles are difficult to take out. I don't think they should be so weak that you can take them down without the help of your team, unless you have some kind of anti-vehicle weapon or EMPing grenade. That's just personal preference, though.

I never played BTB in Halo 2, and I mostly stuck to playing Heavies in Halo Reach and 4, so my perspective on this could be a little biased but I never got the impression that vehicles were particularly overpowering in Halo 5's BTB. In fact many of Halo 5's BTB maps currently don't have any vehicles besides a Ghost and a Warthog anyway, and it seems much easier to get battle rifled out of Warthog turrets too.
Ahvvi wrote:
Stating is when an opposing team does not go for the objective and just slays you.
ok, I always referred to that as "stat padding" but I get the idea. In any case, I'm not sure if I fully buy the argument that maps should have weaker vehicles because one team could potentially gain control of all the vehicles on the map and stat the other team. I don't think it's possible to design a 100% stating-proof map, but if you tried to, you'd probably end up with a boring map that barely has anything besides the weakest weapons and vehicles.

I mean certainly stating would be made easier on a map with, like, 20 Hannibal Mantises but there is always going to be stating no matter how many strong vehicles are on the map. So map designers should find a balance between not so many vehicles that stating is easy, and not so little that the map becomes bland (by the way, I feel like Halo 5's BTB is mostly leaning too far towards the latter right now). Matchmaking itself can also help prevent stating in a different way by using MMR and stuff to match full teams with other full teams instead of with solo players. Basically, I don't think it's completely necessary to water down vehicle play just because stating happens sometimes.

I understand that you were just making a suggestion and vehicle-free BTB might be a new thing that could appeal to players who like to play regular Slayer but would enjoy a bigger team size. I get that, maybe vehicle-free BTB could be an extra game mode alongside Heavies and/or objective, and I respect your suggestion but I feel like that would have been more interesting in a Halo game where BTB actually feels significantly different than regular Slayer. In Halo 5, BTB currently feels far too similar to regular Slayer when it has so many maps like Eagle Square and Port Authority. Just my opinion.
Heyhou117 wrote:
The announce was made in freaking December and now we are in April and all we got is a picture in latest community update that's incredible why everything for halo 5 has to be be so slow that's the most played halo game there are thousands of players playing rn u can't do that it need way more attention even if it's small new things at least give them quick that's way too Terrible
For the record, this is a significant update to btb. We want it done right. Good things come to those who wait. If we rushed maps, you wouldn’t get the quality that you are soon getting.
i like to see the old halo 4 Big Team Battle maps and layout again.
big team battle was always playing on large maps where you can use a lot off vehicles like banshee and scorpion and other vehicles you can use.
the halo 5 version was weak since the maps are to small for a good fight with 16 players where you can make fun also with destroying other vehicles.
this is call big team battle not small team battle and on a playlist you call big team battle you need also large maps and not the small and medium maps only.
a lot off large maps need to return in Big Team Battle
343 Industries and @Zaedynfel, please reconsider giving the stabilization jets BR another chance. We are talking about a BTB Refresh that could potentially encourage players to play more and also bring back players increasing in the population for the playlist.

The current BR is lacking in it's intended engagements because of its recoil. Why the recoil? The recoil creates a shaky feeling that makes it very difficult to gage aiming because when you get at longer distances against the person, you have to adjust your aimer which isn't consistent as leaving your aimer on the opponent's head and getting 4-shot burst kills as you USUALLY would (this does not mean that I want to revert back to the old BR). This makes it less rewarding to players who do have good aim and discourages them picking up the BR for its intended engagements. If its intended engagements are short to medium range, shouldn't it be effective in those aspects? That is why I'm considering the stabilization jets BR. This BR makes it more effective by reducing the amount of recoil to very little to none so that you aim at the head constantly without a jumpy aimer. This BR has the same red reticle range as the current BR.

Why would this BR be more useful than the current BR as they are both still used for that intended range?Problems players are having is when you are shooting at other players that don't have the BR and are using other weapons (LR, DMR, Pistol, etc.) that are firing one bullet after another with small to no recoil, the readjustment to aiming with the BR is very frequent at medium ranges as you will miss multiple shots between each burst trying to compete against those other precision weapons where as the person you are shooting, doesn't have to make barely any adjustment to his aimer.

Does the BR improve in long range engagements? Yes, but not anywhere close to changing the flow of the game or being able to compete against those weapons that are meant for long range engagements (Carbine/DMR/LR) because of there single fire ability (one shot after another) and there longer RRR (Red Reticle Range) than both the current BR and stabilization jets BR.

There should be data already shown where players at/above of the skill level of their opponents that have fought with the BR against LR/Carbines. I believe it's an MMR graph of BR vs. Light Rifles/Carbines/DMR/Pistol. There has been definitely data shown that a player who has a Carbine/LR/DMR/Pistol can beat a player that has a BR and a higher MMR than that person. Also, those players who have the same or higher MMR as their opponents, significantly beats those players with other precision weapons while their opponent has the current BR as well.

The current BR seriously needs an improvement to encourage players to enjoy Big Team Battle more and bring back other players.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
What is meant by "stating" in this context?
I took it to mean a team using vehicles to help stat pad, but it could've also meant just a vehicle getting a lot of kills on its own although I don't really consider that statting if the team is playing normally.
Stating, is when a team who is overwhelming better than the other team starts to increase their amount of kills with only the intent to spawn kill and not win the game until the last second. The way for this to happen to anyone is that it has to be on an objective variant (CTF, Assault, etc) and the team that is stating/farming the players does not end the game. Anyone can notice it by looking at the ridiculous amount of kills that the WHOLE team has. The max amount of kills a team could possibly get in if they're playing a sweaty match down to the wire against another team is around 200 kills and sometimes even more. The team that is stating exceeds that limit in to the 300-600 kill range and this is what discourages players to play.

Remember the Two Rules:
- It has to be a team (7 or 8 players) and not only a few players (1 to 4 players).
- It HAS to be on an objective variant because players wouldn't be able to exceed the limit of 100 kills if it was slayer.

Why do players do it? It is to increase their overall stats giving other players the illusion in to thinking that they are a good player which makes it easier for the player to get inside more lobbies that will either stat or put up a fight against other sweaty teams.
D4rkDeath wrote:
Heyhou117 wrote:
The announce was made in freaking December and now we are in April and all we got is a picture in latest community update that's incredible why everything for halo 5 has to be be so slow that's the most played halo game there are thousands of players playing rn u can't do that it need way more attention even if it's small new things at least give them quick that's way too Terrible
For the record, this is a significant update to btb. We want it done right. Good things come to those who wait. If we rushed maps, you wouldn’t get the quality that you are soon getting.
Times likes this it seems like a lose-lose situation for these folks.
"We want stuff QUICKER! Why so slow?!" <-- What they say when things take long to release...
"Its not good enough/broken! You should have postponed it!!" <--What they say if they do release things quicker...

Want things quicker? You risk it being broken, sloppy, or etc. Pick a quick and almost guaranteed to be broken release, or pick a slower and more likely to be less horrible (but probably still not perfect) release.
The Stabilization Jets BR should be the starting weapon.
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ZaedynFel wrote:
As some of you already know, we have been working on a Big Team Battle Refresh.

We're now at the point where it would be great to hear some feedback!

Please post your feedback, ideas, and wish list items in this thread and we'll read through them and see how they fit into what we're doing right now.

We're especially curious right now about:
  • Starting weapon ideas (though keep in mind we can't change the behavior of specific weapons)
  • Vehicle gameplay: How do you feel about the Warthog right now? Are there enough larger maps to really enjoy vehicles in general?
  • What about mode preferences?
Thanks in advance for your input!
...4 months later. Cool update.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not create alternate accounts to bypass forum bans. Alternate accounts will be permanently banned, and offending users will be subject to both temporary and permanent bans.
ZaedynFel wrote:
As some of you already know, we have been working on a Big Team Battle Refresh.

We're now at the point where it would be great to hear some feedback!

Please post your feedback, ideas, and wish list items in this thread and we'll read through them and see how they fit into what we're doing right now.

We're especially curious right now about:
  • Starting weapon ideas (though keep in mind we can't change the behavior of specific weapons)
  • Vehicle gameplay: How do you feel about the Warthog right now? Are there enough larger maps to really enjoy vehicles in general?
  • What about mode preferences?
Thanks in advance for your input!
...4 months later. Cool update.
Be patient, the sustain team at 343 has been hard at work testing out new maps. Give it a few more weeks, maybe even sooner.
Volize wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
As some of you already know, we have been working on a Big Team Battle Refresh.

We're now at the point where it would be great to hear some feedback!

Please post your feedback, ideas, and wish list items in this thread and we'll read through them and see how they fit into what we're doing right now.

We're especially curious right now about:
  • Starting weapon ideas (though keep in mind we can't change the behavior of specific weapons)
  • Vehicle gameplay: How do you feel about the Warthog right now? Are there enough larger maps to really enjoy vehicles in general?
  • What about mode preferences?
Thanks in advance for your input!
...4 months later. Cool update.
Be patient, the sustain team at 343 has been hard at work testing out new maps. Give it a few more weeks, maybe even sooner.
Yes, these things don’t come overnight. This is huge. The refresh has been handled very well. I’m looking forward to the release!
Ahvvi wrote:
I feel like vehicles used to be easier to take down though. With a shield it is much more difficult, especially if you are solo queuing and no one on your team is shooting at them but you. I remember in H2 the vehicles were way easy to take out in BTB. I never got in them for that reason, unless it was a hog to move a flag.
Personally, I think it's fine if the vehicles are difficult to take out. I don't think they should be so weak that you can take them down without the help of your team, unless you have some kind of anti-vehicle weapon or EMPing grenade. That's just personal preference, though.

I never played BTB in Halo 2, and I mostly stuck to playing Heavies in Halo Reach and 4, so my perspective on this could be a little biased but I never got the impression that vehicles were particularly overpowering in Halo 5's BTB. In fact many of Halo 5's BTB maps currently don't have any vehicles besides a Ghost and a Warthog anyway, and it seems much easier to get battle rifled out of Warthog turrets too.
Ahvvi wrote:
Stating is when an opposing team does not go for the objective and just slays you.
ok, I always referred to that as "stat padding" but I get the idea. In any case, I'm not sure if I fully buy the argument that maps should have weaker vehicles because one team could potentially gain control of all the vehicles on the map and stat the other team. I don't think it's possible to design a 100% stating-proof map, but if you tried to, you'd probably end up with a boring map that barely has anything besides the weakest weapons and vehicles.

I mean certainly stating would be made easier on a map with, like, 20 Hannibal Mantises but there is always going to be stating no matter how many strong vehicles are on the map. So map designers should find a balance between not so many vehicles that stating is easy, and not so little that the map becomes bland (by the way, I feel like Halo 5's BTB is mostly leaning too far towards the latter right now). Matchmaking itself can also help prevent stating in a different way by using MMR and stuff to match full teams with other full teams instead of with solo players. Basically, I don't think it's completely necessary to water down vehicle play just because stating happens sometimes.

I understand that you were just making a suggestion and vehicle-free BTB might be a new thing that could appeal to players who like to play regular Slayer but would enjoy a bigger team size. I get that, maybe vehicle-free BTB could be an extra game mode alongside Heavies and/or objective, and I respect your suggestion but I feel like that would have been more interesting in a Halo game where BTB actually feels significantly different than regular Slayer. In Halo 5, BTB currently feels far too similar to regular Slayer when it has so many maps like Eagle Square and Port Authority. Just my opinion.
The problem is having a balance between anti-vehicle weapons and the vehicles themselves. Some are absolute powerhouses (Banshee/Wasp) if a team doesn't know what they're doing.

Look at Dispelled. 2 wasps, 2 scorpions, 2 ghosts, and 2 hogs......but 2 plasma pistols and a Plasma Caster that are really even effective if you don't waste sniper shots for damage or some random doesn't just take the PP for whatever personal reason.

Viking can become awful too really fast if your team doesn't get laser off the bat and even 1 of your vehicles is gone. It turns into a steamroll fast.

Idk, maybe it's just me because I used to play with teams constantly and have a high MMR, but playing solo turns into this nightmare Everytime I play, because I match teams that know what to do and get randoms who don't. Before you know it, the other team has laser and wasps, with our local plasma pistols(s) gone by the enemy or teammates that don't know they stun vehicles. Nothing much is worse than getting dual-wasped or dual-gaussed.
When will the refresh be? Don't know if the date has been released yet or not.
The problem is having a balance between anti-vehicle weapons and the vehicles themselves. Some are absolute powerhouses (Banshee/Wasp) if a team doesn't know what they're doing.

Look at Dispelled. 2 wasps, 2 scorpions, 2 ghosts, and 2 hogs......but 2 plasma pistols and a Plasma Caster that are really even effective if you don't waste sniper shots for damage or some random doesn't just take the PP for whatever personal reason.

Viking can become awful too really fast if your team doesn't get laser off the bat and even 1 of your vehicles is gone. It turns into a steamroll fast.

Idk, maybe it's just me because I used to play with teams constantly and have a high MMR, but playing solo turns into this nightmare Everytime I play, because I match teams that know what to do and get randoms who don't. Before you know it, the other team has laser and wasps, with our local plasma pistols(s) gone by the enemy or teammates that don't know they stun vehicles. Nothing much is worse than getting dual-wasped or dual-gaussed.
I agree that's no fun. But game modes with heavier vehicles are consistently among the most popular, notably BTB Heavies in Halo Reach and 4, so I'm not convinced that the presence of sweaty spawn camping teams is a good argument for diluting all vehicle play in BTB. I played a lot of Heavies in the games that had it, and sure there were some instances of coordinated teams controlling all the vehicles on the map (or maybe just one no-life nerd getting unfrigs in the overpowered broken -Yoink- Reach Banshee), but I think the fun of having plenty of heavy weapons and vehicles more than made up for it, for most players.

I'm aware that Halo 5's Warzone has a big problem with "farming" or "stating" or whatever you want to call it, but despite that, it has still been more popular than Halo 5's BTB. There could be many reasons for why that's the case (can't get marine kills for Achilles in BTB for example) but I'd say it's mostly because Halo 5's BTB has had relatively bland vehicle play and a lack of powerful weapons compared to Warzone, even with maps such as Dispelled and Viking (at least until BTB Super Fiesta became a thing).

That's just speculation on my part of course, but personally the lack of BTB Heavies and the bland feeling of Halo 5's regular BTB was the biggest reason why I almost gave up on the game entirely, and many of my friends feel the same way about it. Maybe we didn't have a very high MMR so we didn't encounter as many full teams, but if I had a choice between BTB with lots of fun vehicles plus a risk of getting farmed, and diluted BTB without many vehicles, I'd still choose the former. That's just my opinion but I think it's fine for there to be a place in BTB for vehicle-heavy gameplay, because the population numbers have shown that people like it better.
The problem is having a balance between anti-vehicle weapons and the vehicles themselves. Some are absolute powerhouses (Banshee/Wasp) if a team doesn't know what they're doing.

Look at Dispelled. 2 wasps, 2 scorpions, 2 ghosts, and 2 hogs......but 2 plasma pistols and a Plasma Caster that are really even effective if you don't waste sniper shots for damage or some random doesn't just take the PP for whatever personal reason.

Viking can become awful too really fast if your team doesn't get laser off the bat and even 1 of your vehicles is gone. It turns into a steamroll fast.

Idk, maybe it's just me because I used to play with teams constantly and have a high MMR, but playing solo turns into this nightmare Everytime I play, because I match teams that know what to do and get randoms who don't. Before you know it, the other team has laser and wasps, with our local plasma pistols(s) gone by the enemy or teammates that don't know they stun vehicles. Nothing much is worse than getting dual-wasped or dual-gaussed.
I agree that's no fun. But game modes with heavier vehicles are consistently among the most popular, notably BTB Heavies in Halo Reach and 4, so I'm not convinced that the presence of sweaty spawn camping teams is a good argument for diluting all vehicle play in BTB. I played a lot of Heavies in the games that had it, and sure there were some instances of coordinated teams controlling all the vehicles on the map (or maybe just one no-life nerd getting unfrigs in the overpowered broken -Yoink- Reach Banshee), but I think the fun of having plenty of heavy weapons and vehicles more than made up for it, for most players.

I'm aware that Halo 5's Warzone has a big problem with "farming" or "stating" or whatever you want to call it, but despite that, it has still been more popular than Halo 5's BTB. There could be many reasons for why that's the case (can't get marine kills for Achilles in BTB for example) but I'd say it's mostly because Halo 5's BTB has had relatively bland vehicle play and a lack of powerful weapons compared to Warzone, even with maps such as Dispelled and Viking (at least until BTB Super Fiesta became a thing).

That's just speculation on my part of course, but personally the lack of BTB Heavies and the bland feeling of Halo 5's regular BTB was the biggest reason why I almost gave up on the game entirely, and many of my friends feel the same way about it. Maybe we didn't have a very high MMR so we didn't encounter as many full teams, but if I had a choice between BTB with lots of fun vehicles plus a risk of getting farmed, and diluted BTB without many vehicles, I'd still choose the former. That's just my opinion but I think it's fine for there to be a place in BTB for vehicle-heavy gameplay, because the population numbers have shown that people like it better.
But to reiterate on the Heavies notion.....that's why there's BTB Super Fiesta. It's essentially the Heavies mode. Vehicles aren't a massive issue because there's tons of random weapons floating around, most of which are an explosive of some type or insta-kill in nature. Standard BTB has the problem of too many vehicles vs not enough to take them out. My suggestion is purely balancing this, whether it be reducing vehicles or adding more weapons to counter them, but BTB should be about vehicles, so the viable option is giving each team counter weapons, not just a neutral one to fight over because that's what causes the steamrolling.
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