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OP ZaedynFel

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So you have not actually played btb on multiplayer in the social arena, correct?
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As far as getting into a party to chat, that is more of what I meant by redundant. Since that is something I have already have done a lot of. Now that the playlist is out, I’d rather not. I was a work horse, I did my 15 months, we volunteer for this, it’s free. I’m now enjoying the playlist. There was no way of making everyone happy, but as I said before, I truly think 343 looked at the big picture and listened to the overall feedback and data. It was going to upset some, but the playlist is doing well again. Just think, if it were before REQs were available in Forge, we wouldn’t have these options to be upset about. These forums are not the only place to collect feedback. If you are upset, try to present the feedback without the emotion. It’s much easier to be constructive that way.
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I feel I should once again breakdown precisely why the Long-Barrel variant of the Recon H5BR (Halo 5 Battle Rifle) is the ideal replacement for the regular Recon H5BR within the Arena/Social environments given no actual weapon tuning is likely to occur any time soon. And I'll do this in much more detail than I have previously.

I'll begin by highlighting 343i's reason for re-tuning the weapons:
  • Establish/strengthen the unique roles for each weapon and reduce role redundancy.
Then I'll mention important points that 343i discussed with regards to the H5BR throughout the tuning process:
  • Distinguish the H5BR as a weapon that excels at mid-range while still being viable at closer and longer ranges when used effectively. The pre-tuned BR was too effective at all ranges.
  • Most players don’t want the feeling of randomness or inconsistency with the BR; thus, the vertical recoil itself which limits it's effectiveness at longer ranges (outside its effective ranges) is consistent and predictable. It can be learned and accounted for.
The current tuning of the H5BR isn't terrible, but it missed the mark on two vital goals within the tuning process:
  • Distinguish the H5BR as a weapon that excels at mid-range.
  • Strengthen its unique role.
When compared to most of the other more regular precision weapons that it competes against, like the standard & tactical Magnums, the regular Carbine, the regular Light Rifle, the DMR, and the H2BR, it doesn't really excel at mid-range nor does it carry much of a unique niche role. I will explain why that is by highlighting the details of these other weapons in comparison to the H5BR. And at the end I'll reference how the Long-Barrel variant solves the two design goal issues mentioned above for the H5BR.

[Standard] Magnum:
  • Hip-Fire Red-Reticle-Range (RRR) = 36.6 meters or 12.0 world units
  • Smart-Link RRR = 58.0 meters or 19.0 world units
  • Optimal TTK (headshot) = 1.3 seconds (5 bullets)
  • Optimal Kills/Clip = 2.4 | Extended Mag = 3.6
  • Sub-optimal TTK (no headshot) = ~1.9 seconds (7 bullets)
  • Sub-optimal Kills/Clip = 1.7 | Extended Mag = 2.5
  • Melee Kill = 3 shots + melee

    It has a greater Hip-Fire RRR than the regular BR. 12 World Units (WUs) vs 10 WUs. It appears to have more Reticle Magnetism throughout its Hip-Fire RRR in comparison and fairly similar Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within their respective ranges. It has a slightly shorter Smart-Link RRR than the regular Recon BR. 19 WUs vs 20 WUs. But, the regular BR's burst fire and vertical recoil somewhat negates the reality of that tiny advantage. Nevertheless, the standard Magnum seems to have fairly similar Reticle Magnetism within its Smart-Link RRR. And similar Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within their respective ranges. The Magnum's draw and switch times are very good, which is to be expected with a handgun as well as the game's most common primary precision loadout weapon, and I believe its numbers are better than the BR in this capacity. It's also the more lethal weapon with an Optimal TTK of 1.3 vs the BR's 1.4. It's naturally more consistent beyond its effective ranges thanks to having no recoil vs the H5BR's sizable vertical recoil. The BR does hold an advantage in earning a melee kill due to the 2 full bursts being quicker to fire-off than the Magnum's required 3 shots, but miss one bullet within the burst and it becomes an obvious disadvantage for the BR. Kills/clip actually favor the BR, but not if its the Extended Mag version of the standard Magnum. And the BR appears to be more useful for putting damage onto vehicles.
Tactical Magnum:
  • Hip-Fire RRR = 36.6 meters or 12.0 world units
  • Smart-Link RRR = 69.5 meters or 22.8 world units
  • Optimal TTK (headshot) = 1.3 seconds (5 bullets)
  • Optimal Kills/Clip = 2.4
  • Sub-optimal TTK (no headshot) = ~1.9 seconds (7 bullets)
  • Sub-optimal Kills/Clip = 1.7
  • Melee Kill = 3 shots + melee

    I can't really tell if there's any real discernible difference between these Magnums in some of these hard to measure areas. It, like the standard, has a greater Hip-Fire RRR than the regular BR. 12 WUs vs 10 WUs. It too seems to have a bit more Reticle Magnetism throughout its Hip-Fire RRR in comparison and fairly similar Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within their respective ranges. It has a greater Smart-Link RRR than the regular Recon BR. 22.8 WUs vs 20 WUs. It seems to have fairly similar Reticle Magnetism within its Smart-Link RRR too. And similar Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within their respective ranges. I can't reliably tell if its draw and switch times are much different. It's the more lethal weapon with an Optimal TTK of 1.3 vs the BR's 1.4. It's naturally more consistent beyond its effective ranges thanks to having no recoil vs the H5BR's sizable vertical recoil. The BR holds an advantage in earning a melee kill due to the 2 full bursts being quicker to fire-off than the Magnum's required 3 shots, but miss one bullet within the burst and it becomes an obvious disadvantage for the BR. Kills/clip actually favor the BR. And again, in comparison, the BR appears to be more useful for putting damage onto vehicles. Worth noting that the Tactical Magnum is silenced, so it gains a significant advantage by keeping players off radars when firing.
Carbine:
  • Hip-Fire RRR = 32.0 meters or 10.5 world units
  • Smart-Link RRR = 80.0 meters or 26.2 world units
  • Optimal TTK (headshot) = 1.2 seconds (7 bullets)
  • Optimal Kills/Clip = 2.8
  • Sub-optimal TTK (no headshot) = ~1.9 seconds (10 bullets)
  • Sub-optimal Kills/Clip = 2.0
  • Melee Kill = 4 shots + melee

    It has a slightly greater Hip-Fire RRR than the regular BR. 10.5 WUs vs 10 WUs. It seems to have fairly similar Reticle Magnetism throughout its Hip-Fire RRR in comparison and fairly similar Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within their respective ranges too. It has a greater Smart-Link RRR than the regular Recon BR. 26.2 WUs vs 20 WUs. It seems to have fairly similar Reticle Magnetism within its Smart-Link RRR too. And similar Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within their respective ranges. Its draw and switch times appear to be slower in comparison. It's the more lethal weapon with an Optimal TTK of 1.2 vs the BR's 1.4. Hard to say if it's more consistent beyond its effective ranges because of its random bullet spread. At least the sizable vertical recoil of the H5BR is predictable. The BR potentially holds an advantage in earning a melee kill due to the 2 full bursts being quicker to fire-off than the Carbine's required 4 shots. Kills/clip actually favor the BR. And one other possible advantage the BR may hold over the Carbine relates to the visibility of the bullet travel. The Carbine's projectiles make it easy for people to track your whereabouts when firing. The Carbine is an excellent jack-of-all trades utility weapon that excels at mid-range which is exactly what the BR is suppose to replicate while functioning as a UNSC burst fire weapon.

(continued)
(continuing)

Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR):
    • Hip-Fire RRR = 45.7 meters or 15.0 world units
    • Recon Smart-Link RRR = 95.5 meters or 31.3 world units | Regular Scoped RRR = 128.1 meters or 42 world units
    • Optimal TTK (headshot) = 1.5 seconds (5 bullets)
    • Optimal Kills/Clip = 3.0
    • Sub-optimal TTK (no headshot) = ~1.9 seconds (6 bullets)
    • Sub-optimal Kills/Clip = 2.5
    • Melee Kill = 2 shots + melee

      It has a significantly greater Hip-Fire RRR than the regular BR. 15 WUs vs 10 WUs. It has noticeably less Reticle Magnetism throughout its Hip-Fire RRR in comparison, but they seem to have fairly similar Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within their respective ranges. It has vastly greater Smart-Link/Scoped RRRs than the regular Recon BR. 31.3 WUs or 42 WUs vs 20 WUs. It seems like it may have less Reticle Magnetism within its Smart-Link/Scoped RRR too; though, fairly similar Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within their respective ranges. Its draw and switch times are clearly worse. It's the less lethal weapon with an Optimal TTK of 1.5 vs the BR's 1.4. It's naturally more consistent beyond its effective ranges thanks to having no recoil vs the H5BR's sizable vertical recoil. The BR potentially holds an extremely slight advantage in earning a melee kill due to the 2 full bursts being slightly quicker to fire-off than the DMR's 2 shots. Kills/clip are fairly similar between the weapons.
    Light Rifle (LR):
    • Hip-Fire RRR = 30.5 meters or 10.0 world units
    • Smart-Link RRR = 76.3 meters or 25.0 world units
    • Optimal Smart-Link TTK (headshot) = 1.1 seconds (3 bullets)
    • Optimal Smart-Link Kills/Clip = 4.0
    • Optimal Hip-Fire TTK (headshot) = 1.2 seconds (4 bullets)
    • Optimal Hip-Fire Kills/Clip = 3.0
    • Sub-optimal Smart-Link TTK (no headshot) = ~1.6 seconds (4 bullets)
    • Sub-optimal Smart-Link Kills/Clip = 3.0
    • Sub-optimal Hip-Fire TTK (no headshot) = ~1.6 seconds (5 bullets)
    • Sub-optimal Hip-Fire Kills/Clip = 2.4
    • Melee Kill = 2 shots + melee

      It has the same Hip-Fire RRR as the regular BR. It feels like it has fairly similar Reticle Magnetism throughout its Hip-Fire RRR. They also seem to have fairly similar Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within that respective range. It has a greater Smart-Link RRR than the regular Recon BR. 25 WUs vs 20 WUs. Within their respective Smart-Link RRRs they seems to have fairly similar Reticle Magnetism. Ditto for the Bullet Magnetism to the body and head. Its draw and switch times are slower. It's significantly more lethal with an Optimal TTK of 1.1 or 1.2 vs the BR's 1.4. It's naturally more consistent beyond its effective ranges thanks to having no recoil vs the H5BR's sizable vertical recoil. It clearly holds an advantage in earning melee kills. It also holds an advantage in kills/clip. One possible advantage the BR has over the LR deals with the visibility of the bullet travel. The LR's projectiles, like the Carbine's, makes it easy for people to track your whereabouts when firing.
    Halo 2 Battle Rifle (H2BR):
    • Hip-Fire RRR = 36.6 meters or 12.0 world units
    • Scoped RRR = 76.3 meters or 25.0 world units
    • Optimal TTK (headshot) = 1.4 seconds (11 or 12 bullets | 4 bursts)
    • Optimal Kills/Clip = ~3.0
    • Sub-optimal TTK (no headshot) = ~1.9 seconds (16 - 18 bullets | 6 bursts)
    • Sub-optimal Kills/Clip = ~2.0
    • Melee Kill = 6 bullets (2 full bursts) + melee

      It has more Hip-Fire RRR than the regular BR. 12 WUs vs 10 WUs. It seems to have more Reticle Magnetism throughout its Hip-Fire RRR. It has noticeably more Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head within that respective range. It has a greater Smart-Link/Scoped RRR than the regular Recon BR. 25 WUs vs 20 WUs. Within their respective Smart-Link/Scoped RRRs the H2BR seems to have more Reticle Magnetism. It certainly has more Bullet Magnetism to both the body and head in comparison. Its draw and switch times seem to be a bit slower, but I'm not 100% sure. They share the same lethality. It's naturally more consistent beyond its effective ranges thanks to having no recoil vs the H5BR's sizable vertical recoil. Its aim assist and lack of recoil may grant a slight advantage in earning melee kills. Same kills/clip.
    Halo 5 Battle Rifle (H5BR)::
    • Hip-Fire RRR = 30.5 meters or 10.0 world units
    • Recon Smart-Link RRR = 61.0 meters or 20.0 world units | Classic Scoped RRR = 63.7 meters or 20.9 world units
    • Optimal TTK (headshot) = 1.4 seconds (11 or 12 bullets | 4 bursts)
    • Optimal Kills/Clip = ~3.0
    • Sub-optimal TTK (no headshot) = ~1.9 seconds (16 - 18 bullets | 6 bursts)
    • Sub-optimal Kills/Clip = ~2.0
    • Melee Kill = 6 bullets (2 full bursts) + melee

      Many of its tuning changes improved game-play. Its draw and switch speeds were enhanced making it a far better starting loadout weapon. Its lethality was reduced by decreasing its rate of fire and burst sequence. The lethality changes required players to maintain their aim over a target for an extended period of time which increased its skill ceiling. The lethality changes also positioned the weapon to have a fair trade-off for longer effective ranges over the game's typical precision loadout weapon - the standard Magnum. Thankfully, the random bullet spread that was introduced during initial tuning was eliminated in favor of vertical only recoil. That recoil was increased over the pre-tuned BR in order to help limit the weapon's cross-map capabilities outside its effective ranges. The problem is that the tuning reduced the weapon's effective ranges. Thus, the weapon was left in a state where it did NOT excel at mid-range in comparison to its direct sandbox competition. Therefore, the tuning actually failed to distinguish it within its intended mid-range role. This is why I recommend the Long-Barrel variant. It maintains all of the other nerfs that improve its sandbox position and increase its skill ceiling, but grants it some unique mid-range niche advantages against its competition such that it doesn't feel useless. It allows players to wage whether or not to replace it for other particular advantages granted by its competition instead of the other options clearly being upgrades.
    Long-Barrel Recon H5BR:
    • Hip-Fire RRR = 36.6 meters or 12.0 world units
    • Smart-Link RRR = 73.2 meters or 24.0 world units
    • Optimal TTK (headshot) = 1.4 seconds (11 or 12 bullets | 4 bursts)
    • Optimal Kills/Clip = ~3.0
    • Sub-optimal TTK (no headshot) = ~1.9 seconds (16 - 18 bullets | 6 bursts)
    • Sub-optimal Kills/Clip = ~2.0
    • Melee Kill = 6 bullets (2 full bursts) + melee

    • The Long-Barrel BR gains a Smart-Link effective range advantage over both of the more lethal and consistent Magnums while matching their Hip-Fire effective ranges.
    • The Long-Barrel Recon BR gains a Hip-Fire effective range advantage over the more lethal Carbine while not suffering as much of a Smart-Link effective range disadvantage.
    • The more lethal BR, in comparison to the more consistent DMR, suffers less of an effective range disadvantage when using the Long-Barrel variant.
    • The Long-Barrel Recon BR gains a Hip-Fire effective range advantage against the more lethal and consistent LR while nearly matching its' Smart-Link effective range.
    • The Long-Barrel Recon BR nearly matches the more consistent H2BR in Smart-Link/Scope effective range while matching its Hip-Fire effective range.
    • Other specialty BR variants, like the Kinetic Bolt BR, would now present a real trade-off for gaining their particular benefit, such as extra vehicle damage, by losing the added effective range of the Long-Barrel variant.
    D4rk6400 wrote:
    There was no way of making everyone happy, but as I said before, I truly think 343 looked at the big picture and listened to the overall feedback and data. It was going to upset some, but the playlist is doing well again.
    Are there any plans on making adjustments in the near future if there are issues or are the updates done for good?
    LUKEPOWA wrote:
    D4rk6400 wrote:
    There was no way of making everyone happy, but as I said before, I truly think 343 looked at the big picture and listened to the overall feedback and data. It was going to upset some, but the playlist is doing well again.
    Are there any plans on making adjustments in the near future if there are issues or are the updates done for good?
    We will be addressing issues such as bug fixes and minor tweaks. For example, I just saw a clip of a flag hitting a soft kill volume by accident and resetting, costing the player a goal and the match. Things like that will be addressed. However, more major things like design decisions, map geometry, and weapons are unlikely to change.
    LUKEPOWA wrote:
    D4rk6400 wrote:
    There was no way of making everyone happy, but as I said before, I truly think 343 looked at the big picture and listened to the overall feedback and data. It was going to upset some, but the playlist is doing well again.
    Are there any plans on making adjustments in the near future if there are issues or are the updates done for good?
    We will be addressing issues such as bug fixes and minor tweaks. For example, I just saw a clip of a flag hitting a soft kill volume by accident and resetting, costing the player a goal and the match. Things like that will be addressed. However, more major things like design decisions, map geometry, and weapons are unlikely to change.
    There we have it.
    ...
    Congrats on being hired by 343i. When did that happen?
    eLantern wrote:
    ...
    Congrats on being hired by 343i. When did that happen?
    Earlier this year. However, my role with Halo 5 support and forge is still that of a community member. This doesn't change anything, and I will still be approaching everything about this playlist and refresh as I would normally.
    What I find confusing is for at least a year and a half we had a BR that was deemed overpowered. The BR was then modified to this shell of the weapon that it used to be that we've had to use for another year and half or so. But when many voice concerns over having a BR that is in between the two, we're denied. People were quitting during testing because a BR was somewhat accurate...?
    This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.
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    This post has been edited by a moderator. Because we are not currently equipped to provide moderation in other languages, we must ask that all messages be posted in English. Feel free to use an online language translation service, and then create a new thread with the translated text. Sorry for the inconvenience.
    +100 Pwner, vous n’avez pas à vous demander pourquoi le halo se passe mal quand vous voyez les explications des gens qui font les cartes ... (oui, mais notre communauté de 50 joueurs ne nous a donné qu'un bon retour), vous êtes conscient qu’il ya été grosse compétition de btb sur h5? pourquoi ne pas être inspiré avant que le rang btb n'arrive? si pour vous btb comp = lourds> vous êtes incompétants ... sans rire je joue des cartes dans custum qui était 100 fois mieux équilibré / compétitif! et c’était il y a 3 ans… parce que vous vouliez être clos du débat, la seule chose que vous ferez> est que votre liste de lecture sera morte et avec juste quelques randooms
    This post has been edited by a moderator. Because we are not currently equipped to provide moderation in other languages, we must ask that all messages be posted in English. Feel free to use an online language translation service, and then create a new thread with the translated text. Sorry for the inconvenience.
    Je vous demande simplement de prendre 20 minutes ... allez regarder les cartes que j'ai dans mon partage de fichiers (et si les administrateurs ici trouvent la liste de lecture MM plus compétitive / avec de meilleures cartes), je leur paye tous un restaurant
    Pwner wrote:
    It's sad when the 343 did the socail stream yesterday they litterally switched to big team fiesta afte TWO GAMES cuase it was boring and they disnt like it they ONLY whent back to btb refresh becuase a forger typed in their chat saying that it's very rude to not play them after all the time they put in. My point it even they didnt enjoy it
    This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not create alternate accounts to bypass forum bans. Alternate accounts will be permanently banned, and offending users will be subject to both temporary and permanent bans.
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    However, more major things like design decisions, map geometry, and weapons are *unlikely* to change.
    So you're telling me there's a chance. I just really want to know if these things can be done before the playlist becomes ranked:
    • Add a few more Neutral Bomb (Assault) modes to the playlist to increase the mode's availability.
    • In particular bring back Neutral Bomb (Assault) on Echoes.
    • Bring the Eagle Square map back to the playlist; assuming frame-rate issues weren't the reason for its dismissal.
    • Replace the regular Recon Battle Rifle with the Long-Barrel variant as the primary loadout weapon.
    Yugi wrote:
    Pwner wrote:
    It's sad when the 343 did the socail stream yesterday they litterally switched to big team fiesta afte TWO GAMES cuase it was boring and they disnt like it they ONLY whent back to btb refresh becuase a forger typed in their chat saying that it's very rude to not play them after all the time they put in. My point it even they didnt enjoy it
    Lol this is absolutely not true at all.

    Don't make things up please. :)
    Yugi wrote:
    Pwner wrote:
    It's sad when the 343 did the socail stream yesterday they litterally switched to big team fiesta afte TWO GAMES cuase it was boring and they disnt like it they ONLY whent back to btb refresh becuase a forger typed in their chat saying that it's very rude to not play them after all the time they put in. My point it even they didnt enjoy it
    Lol this is absolutely not true at all.

    Don't make things up please. :)
    I was watching the stream good try tho
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