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Big Team Battle Refresh Feedback

OP ZaedynFel

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A population update for those interested.

After the initial spike that every new list has (which put BTB into Slayer pop territory), population has currently stabilized to 3 times the previous level, which is really good. One of the best refresh responses we've ever seen.

It's super early to read much into that, so we'll be watching it closely.
Just a quick question on game type weighting. How often (or what percentage) will strongholds come up? I don't mind playing it, but would prefer to play something else that I wont get steamrolled in (like slayer). (This is from experiences pre and post refresh).

Also, as a solo-entrant in BTB, how are the teams being matched up (full team vs. randoms, full vs. full, etc), and is that something that can be refined upon in tweaks to the playlist.

Lastly, Is there plans to try and reduce lobby wait time. Waiting 20 mins for a match, only to get steamrolled or have the lobby freeze at match start makes me think 343 doesn't value the time I sit down to play (extremely petty, I know) but being in Australia and little quality time (you know, actually having fun in game I spent money on) to play, makes the lobby issues worse and then sub-par games, make me not want to play.

I want to support Halo, but 343 is making it hard to do such.
Excellent job. I am genuinely enjoying the new maps. Thank you to everyone who volunteered their time to work hard on this refresh (especially the forgers and play-testers). The 20 to 30 people I regularly frequent the BTB playlist with, for the most part, also appreciate and enjoy the refresh!

As for constructive feedback:

Fossil
  • The Anti-Air Wraith
-A little overpowered. Consider changing this to a sword/regular/temple Wraith.
-Seems like one team has a shorter run to this vehicle. Consider changing the placement so it is closer to both teams.

  • The Shield
-Love the fact it covers half the arm site, limiting the amount of fire on the bomb carrier while arming. Not sure if this was the forgers' intention when they included the shield function, but it is incredibly intuitive. Kudos.

Panic Attack
  • Spawn locations
-Spawn locations/influencers need to be addressed on this map. It has the potential of a stronger slaying team spawn trapping a weaker team.

  • Middle bridge
-Love the multiple ways to engage enemies on the bridge (from bottom or below).
-This is a nice free-flowing map when you have two equally skilled teams.
-Very warthog friendly.

Pioneer
  • Anti-Vehicle Weapons
-Unless I am missing something, the sentinel beam, camo, and splinter grenades (?) are the only anti-vehicle weapons/items on this map. Please consider adding one plasma pistol in a neutral location.
-Teams are given the same amount of vehicles, but camo is clearly closer to one team's initial spawn. Camo will take out the enemy team's tank and then it's an easy win. Camo should be in a neutral location.

Assault Gametype
  • Splinter Grenades
-Consider taking them out of assault game types. An emerging strategy for teams is driving the bomb into the arm site with a warthog, tossing the bomb underneath the warthog, and while the bomb is automatically arming, throwing splinter grenades on the enemy team trying to move the warthog.

Again, thank you to the forgers, playtesters, and everyone else who worked hard on this refresh project. May good luck and fortune bless your lives with the strength of a thousand suns.

Kind regards,
l 800 LAWYER UP
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.
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Pioneer
  • Anti-Vehicle Weapons
-Unless I am missing something, the sentinel beam, camo, and splinter grenades (?) are the only anti-vehicle weapons/items on this map. Please consider adding one plasma pistol in a neutral location.
-Teams are given the same amount of vehicles, but camo is clearly closer to one team's initial spawn. Camo will take out the enemy team's tank and then it's an easy win. Camo should be in a neutral location.
The Scorpions on Pioneer are the reason for the unorthodox lineup of anti-vehicle weapons. Early in testing, the Plasma Pistol was found to be a bit too effective at disabling the Scorpions, since the main gun reorients during each stun, and the Plasma Pistol could keep the vehicle in this state for a very long time. Splinter grenades were placed on the map instead, since a player can only get two stuns out of them. The goal of this map was to empower the Scorpion in the right hands and provide drivers with plenty of open space they can be effective in, while still allowing infantry to combat them with the right gear or board them with the right positioning. In addition to the four splinter grenades on the map, there are several "soft counters" that add up in damage over time. Warthogs, Ghosts, kinetic bolt weapons, chain gun turrets, plasma grenades, the Rocket Launcher, the SAW, the Hydra, the Sentinel Beam, and even Active Camo and the Overshield can all help combat the Scorpions without invalidating their presence on the map.

Hope this clears some things up! :)
Pioneer
  • Anti-Vehicle Weapons
-Unless I am missing something, the sentinel beam, camo, and splinter grenades (?) are the only anti-vehicle weapons/items on this map. Please consider adding one plasma pistol in a neutral location.
-Teams are given the same amount of vehicles, but camo is clearly closer to one team's initial spawn. Camo will take out the enemy team's tank and then it's an easy win. Camo should be in a neutral location.
The Scorpions on Pioneer are the reason for the unorthodox lineup of anti-vehicle weapons. Early in testing, the Plasma Pistol was found to be a bit too effective at disabling the Scorpions, since the main gun reorients during each stun, and the Plasma Pistol could keep the vehicle in this state for a very long time. Splinter grenades were placed on the map instead, since a player can only get two stuns out of them. The goal of this map was to empower the Scorpion in the right hands and provide drivers with plenty of open space they can be effective in, while still allowing infantry to combat them with the right gear or board them with the right positioning. In addition to the four splinter grenades on the map, there are several "soft counters" that add up in damage over time. Warthogs, Ghosts, kinetic bolt weapons, chain gun turrets, plasma grenades, the Rocket Launcher, the SAW, the Hydra, the Sentinel Beam, and even Active Camo and the Overshield can all help combat the Scorpions without invalidating their presence on the map.

Hope this clears some things up! :)
Thank you for your reply and authoring this map. Awesome job. Seeing a floating phantom is akin to seeing Bigfoot ride a Unicorn into Vahalla. Just glorious.

Completely forgot about the hydra, rockets, plasma grenades, and did not know about the TWO sets of splinter grenades. Ends the "anti-vehicle" issue. Thanks for clarifying.

My only remaining concern is camo being closer to one team's initial spawn. Huge advantage as camo can be used to easily take out the enemy tank.

My suggestion for an alternative placement would be in the middle of the bridge that is above rockets. This seems to be an equal running distance for both teams (about 13-15 seconds), and since these bridges act as a choke point (only one entrance and exit on each side) it is much harder for that camo player to successfully escape. As a result, the first camo will likely be burnt, accomplishing two things: (1) further empowering the scorpions (your desired goal of this map) for at least the first two minutes and; (2) it will place a higher emphasis on the second camo, as teams will have to successfully control that side to ensure a safe camo pull.
NiCuZn wrote:
Just a quick question on game type weighting. How often (or what percentage) will strongholds come up? I don't mind playing it, but would prefer to play something else that I wont get steamrolled in (like slayer). (This is from experiences pre and post refresh).
  • Objective (Strongholds + CTF + Assault + 1-Flag) = 26/43 = 60.5%
  • Slayer = 17/43 = 39.5%
  • Flag (CTF + 1-Flag) = 11/43 = 25.6%
  • Strongholds = 9/43 = 20.9%
  • CTF = 8/43 = 18.6%
  • Assault = 6/43 = 14.0%
  • 1-Flag = 3/43 = 7.0%
NiCuZn wrote:
Also, as a solo-entrant in BTB, how are the teams being matched up (full team vs. randoms, full vs. full, etc), and is that something that can be refined upon in tweaks to the playlist.
TrueSkill2/TrueSkill-Through-Time (TS2/TTT) which is what Halo 5 uses throughout its matchmaking does a pretty fantastic job at identifying individual player skill and accounting for fireteam influences; meaning, that it'll factor for increases in skill related to playing in a party or full team.

If you're finding yourself in some pretty lopsided matches it's more likely to be a population vs search time issue where the acceptable allowances expand to be at their greatest after a period of time or a combination of that and the coincidence of player(s) on a particular team just having an "off" game that can also help lead to lopsided matches. It happens and it certainly can be frustrating. It's less likely to be a match-maker/team balancer issue since 343i honestly do a very reasonable job at managing the system allowances to prevent significant disparities in match fairness and the capability of the skill system itself is an industry leader.
NiCuZn wrote:
Lastly, Is there plans to try and reduce lobby wait time. Waiting 20 mins for a match, only to get steamrolled or have the lobby freeze at match start makes me think 343 doesn't value the time I sit down to play (extremely petty, I know) but being in Australia and little quality time (you know, actually having fun in game I spent money on) to play, makes the lobby issues worse and then sub-par games, make me not want to play.
Lobby wait times are often impacted by your search preference related to connection quality and, of course, the population playing the game when you're searching; plus, the required amount of players to fill teams. I advice you to try targeting time periods where the game/playlists' population will often be at its peak. And if you find yourself often connecting to the US West coast servers I'd recommend trying to target the peak times for that particular region. I'm not certain if the "Focused" search preference will allow you to connect to the US West coast servers from Australia or not, so perhaps the "Balanced" selection will allow you to best manage your search times while maintaining a desire for acceptable connection quality for matches; however, if search speed is all you care about then "Expanded" is the way to go.

Also, 343i have initiated a change that allows matches to begin with teams of 7v7 instead of 8v8 in order to lessen the issue related to wait times by combating, or working around, the so-called "15/16 glitch" that often led to searches timing out.
eLantern wrote:
NiCuZn wrote:
Just a quick question on game type weighting. How often (or what percentage) will strongholds come up? I don't mind playing it, but would prefer to play something else that I wont get steamrolled in (like slayer). (This is from experiences pre and post refresh).
  • Objective (Strongholds + CTF + Assault + 1-Flag) = 26/43 = 60.5%
  • Slayer = 17/43 = 39.5%
  • Flag (CTF + 1-Flag) = 11/43 = 25.6%
  • Strongholds = 9/43 = 20.9%
  • CTF = 8/43 = 18.6%
  • Assault = 6/43 = 14.0%
  • 1-Flag = 3/43 = 7.0%
For me it was this (out of 25 games)
Objective (Strongholds + CTF + Assault + 1-Flag) = 13/25
Slayer = 12/25
1 Flag = 5/25
Reg CTF - 2/25
Assault 5/25
Strongholds 1/25

My map RNG had me on dead heat a lot..but only once had an obj game on that map. Slayer on that map was not fun IMO, but the objective game was great
eLantern wrote:
NiCuZn wrote:
Just a quick question on game type weighting. How often (or what percentage) will strongholds come up? I don't mind playing it, but would prefer to play something else that I wont get steamrolled in (like slayer). (This is from experiences pre and post refresh).
  • Objective (Strongholds + CTF + Assault + 1-Flag) = 26/43 = 60.5%
  • Slayer = 17/43 = 39.5%
  • Flag (CTF + 1-Flag) = 11/43 = 25.6%
  • Strongholds = 9/43 = 20.9%
  • CTF = 8/43 = 18.6%
  • Assault = 6/43 = 14.0%
  • 1-Flag = 3/43 = 7.0%
For me it was this (out of 25 games)
Objective (Strongholds + CTF + Assault + 1-Flag) = 13/25
Slayer = 12/25
1 Flag = 5/25
Reg CTF - 2/25
Assault 5/25
Strongholds 1/25

My map RNG had me on dead heat a lot..but only once had an obj game on that map. Slayer on that map was not fun IMO, but the objective game was great
The 43 number I used wasn't the amount of matches I've played, but instead the total number of map+mode options within the current BTB playlist. So the mode percentages are referencing the actual odds relating to mode representation within the playlist. I haven't figured out what my anecdotal experience in percentage has been, but I listed my 22 matches (thus far) HERE. I hope to get in a lot more matches in the coming weeks as I look forward to experiencing more of the map+mode options.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not engage users who are trolling.
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Lol they did only play two games of regular btb, so sad. And don't say they did it to switch things up because every stream they play super fiesta. Every. Single. Stream. I don't understand why 343 feels like they need to child proof the game by letting the forgers reduce the ammo in the sniper, putting Shields on Traffic Jam to take away one of the only places to really use the sniper on that map, putting in way to many power weapons on dispelled, taking out Eagle Square, and replacing Deadlock with Dead Heat. It's obvious that the forgers and 343 employees are not competitive players. Sure they can make a decent looking map, but the way the map plays out is absolutely terrible. The only reason people are excited about the refresh because it's been over a year since anything new has been done to the game, especially btb. You just have to keep in mind that the people who stream and are active and that are in active Spartan companies that enjoy Halo are the people who keep this game alive, not the kids who get halo for Christmas, play it for two weeks then go play something else.These are not the people we should cater to...
They played 4 games of regular BTB and 1 game of the Super Fiesta version. You could have done literally 30 seconds of research and found that out.
eLantern wrote:
NiCuZn wrote:
-snipped to save space-
Thanks for the metrics on the game types. Hopefully, slayer is something that shows more often in the future.

I had been using expanded pretty much from H5's release as up until September? of last year, when I changed back to balanced (more stable matches, less lag sort of thing). Sad to see there is no real way of fixing wait times outside of playing at strange hours (for Australians). What's the point of dedicated servers if the game doesn't use them in that region. Also, the lobby freeze that I experienced happened with a full team on both sides, so fix one thing, break another.

Could you provide the metrics for 'peak hour' times for the US West Coast server? I have no clue on what period of time that refers to (It could be 4AM my time, so point is moot).
NiCuZn wrote:
eLantern wrote:
NiCuZn wrote:
-snipped to save space-
Thanks for the metrics on the game types. Hopefully, slayer is something that shows more often in the future.

I had been using expanded pretty much from H5's release as up until September? of last year, when I changed back to balanced (more stable matches, less lag sort of thing). Sad to see there is no real way of fixing wait times outside of playing at strange hours (for Australians). What's the point of dedicated servers if the game doesn't use them in that region. Also, the lobby freeze that I experienced happened with a full team on both sides, so fix one thing, break another.

Could you provide the metrics for 'peak hour' times for the US West Coast server? I have no clue on what period of time that refers to (It could be 4AM my time, so point is moot).
oh trust me it'd be worse for us without the dedicated servers. i know how you feel but aus population is rather small and we really can only play against the us. but this isn't the correct thread for sever and lag based conversation.
NiCuZn wrote:
eLantern wrote:
NiCuZn wrote:
-snipped to save space-
Thanks for the metrics on the game types. Hopefully, slayer is something that shows more often in the future.

I had been using expanded pretty much from H5's release as up until September? of last year, when I changed back to balanced (more stable matches, less lag sort of thing). Sad to see there is no real way of fixing wait times outside of playing at strange hours (for Australians). What's the point of dedicated servers if the game doesn't use them in that region. Also, the lobby freeze that I experienced happened with a full team on both sides, so fix one thing, break another.

Could you provide the metrics for 'peak hour' times for the US West Coast server? I have no clue on what period of time that refers to (It could be 4AM my time, so point is moot).
oh trust me it'd be worse for us without the dedicated servers. i know how you feel but aus population is rather small and we really can only play against the us. but this isn't the correct thread for sever and lag based conversation.
Totally understand that this for the refresh, not issues I am having, but given that I have noticed issues post-refresh. I also wanted to know the 'behind the scenes' metrics for how things are done, so listing issues that (I thought) maybe affecting my experience in BTB seemed logical.
ZaedynFel wrote:
A population update for those interested.

After the initial spike that every new list has (which put BTB into Slayer pop territory), population has currently stabilized to 3 times the previous level, which is really good. One of the best refresh responses we've ever seen.

It's super early to read much into that, so we'll be watching it closely.
Very happy to hear about this. Does this also mean that the possibility of BTB becoming a rotational is no longer a thing?
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.
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Volize wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
A population update for those interested.

After the initial spike that every new list has (which put BTB into Slayer pop territory), population has currently stabilized to 3 times the previous level, which is really good. One of the best refresh responses we've ever seen.

It's super early to read much into that, so we'll be watching it closely.
Very happy to hear about this. Does this also mean that the possibility of BTB becoming a rotational is no longer a thing?
No time soon for sure. Any playlist should be considered for rotational once its matchmaking goes below sufficient quality because at some point the playlist itself drives more people away from the game than into it.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Volize wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
A population update for those interested.

After the initial spike that every new list has (which put BTB into Slayer pop territory), population has currently stabilized to 3 times the previous level, which is really good. One of the best refresh responses we've ever seen.

It's super early to read much into that, so we'll be watching it closely.
Very happy to hear about this. Does this also mean that the possibility of BTB becoming a rotational is no longer a thing?
No time soon for sure. Any playlist should be considered for rotational once its matchmaking goes below sufficient quality because at some point the playlist itself drives more people away from the game than into it.
That’s a win for everyone! I’m glad it was a success!
So I heard that Eagle Square was the most dodged map in BTB, I need proof. That was one of the best maps in BTB and to hear that is very astonishing.

I seriously need proof.
Envore wrote:
So I heard that Eagle Square was the most dodged map in BTB, I need proof. That was one of the best maps in BTB and to hear that is very astonishing.

I seriously need proof.
Right... cause posting those statistics for everyone to see wouldn’t be the most controversial thing ever...
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