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OP ZaedynFel

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eLantern wrote:
  • Rotate Big Team Super Fiesta (BTSF) with Castle Wars and regular BTB. This would mean bringing BTB back over to the social environment. These would all fit into a categorical theme of providing social big team experiences. This guarantees that none of these big team experiences draws potential interest from each other; thus, improving the population in all of them when they're available and most likely for other playlists too. Not sure what the best rotation policy might be for these, but I imagine rotating them on a week-to-week basis should provide the best population results for each playlist.
A potential issue with this could be that when BTB rotates in, the BTBSF crowd would abandon the game for that period. Sure, maybe some would go over to the smaller Fiesta playlist option you suggested, but considering that Josh said BTBSF is close to 10x more popular than BTB, that's a lot of players to risk losing, even temporarily. The idea that these 3 big team playlists could co-exist without drawing attention from each other is predicated on the idea that the players in these playlists would be fine playing each of them. But we've already seen that classic BTB fans in this thread don't like BTBSF, and the numbers BTBSF draws in over regular BTB suggests that most of the BTBSF players don't want regular BTB. It just seems like there could be a chance that a huge chunk of the population disappears whenever BTBSF rotates out, if this plan were to be implemented. Ideally, in this proposed system of yours, every week that a player's prefered list is not in rotation, they would just grin and bear it for the duration of the rotation. But that's a lofty ideal and may not be realistic.
You do realize that most of those btb sf players only play that playlist for the weapons commendations. It’s only slayer. I mean if there were other games types along with it like CTF or Assault then I could see it drawing more attention. But why lose btb when it’s been a concrete playlist since halo 1/2. Only to please the fiesta population. Sounds pretty 1 sided regardless of feedback. Removed btb fiesta and I’m sure you’ll see a huge chunk of the pop go back to regular btb if it was put back into social. Yes the younger generation is 343s money makers but you’re going to lose players who’ve stuck with halo since the beginning. I’m sure if you make a playlist with the same settings and weapons and call it Halloween fun it’ll draw the younger population cuz that’s what they like to play. What about the players who’ve spent money on halo since the very first game and when 343 took over we knew it was gonna be challenging and hard to stay with but we did anyways cuz we don’t want to see halo die because of 343. I hope btb doesn’t become rotational. We just want both back to the way it was before any changes were made. Oh why not have a mixture of the old maps along with the refresh maps in rotation. That’ll be fun as well.
You do realize that most of those btb sf players only play that playlist for the weapons commendations. It’s only slayer. I mean if there were other games types along with it like CTF or Assault then I could see it drawing more attention. But why lose btb when it’s been a concrete playlist since halo 1/2. Only to please the fiesta population. Sounds pretty 1 sided regardless of feedback. Removed btb fiesta and I’m sure you’ll see a huge chunk of the pop go back to regular btb if it was put back into social. Yes the younger generation is 343s money makers but you’re going to lose players who’ve stuck with halo since the beginning. I’m sure if you make a playlist with the same settings and weapons and call it Halloween fun it’ll draw the younger population cuz that’s what they like to play. What about the players who’ve spent money on halo since the very first game and when 343 took over we knew it was gonna be challenging and hard to stay with but we did anyways cuz we don’t want to see halo die because of 343. I hope btb doesn’t become rotational. We just want both back to the way it was before any changes were made. Oh why not have a mixture of the old maps along with the refresh maps in rotation. That’ll be fun as well.
Only for the commendations? Highly doubtful. Super Fiesta's been around for a whole lot longer than BTB Fiesta has. It's far more likely that most people playing BTB Fiesta completed their weapon commendations in Super Fiesta long before it was even a thing. So, if that's the case, then that has to mean that people playing it now must legit enjoy playing it, right?

Yeah, they could make BTB Fiesta rotational and move BTB back to Social, and yeah, BTB might see a spike in playtime as a result, as is usually the case when moves like that are made. But I don't think it would ever sustain. You're working under the assumption that a huge chunk of the BTB Fiesta population are also BTB players, and I don't think that is the case at all. I think removal of BTB Fiesta would only serve to benefit Super Fiesta, as it's far more likely a huge chunk of that population are Super Fiesta players, not BTB players.

So the likely scenario that I could see play out is BTB Fiesta rotates out, BTB rotates in, BTB starts strong, but fades after a while as BTB Fiesta players begin funneling into Super Fiesta, BTB struggles for however long it's up, BTB Fiesta rotates back in, its numbers stay strong all throughout its up time, BTB rotates back in, rinse and repeat. 'Tis a vicious cycle not in BTB's favor.
You're working under the assumption that a huge chunk of the BTB Fiesta population are also BTB players, and I don't think that is the case at all. I think removal of BTB Fiesta would only serve to benefit Super Fiesta, as it's far more likely a huge chunk of that population are Super Fiesta players, not BTB players.
They were playing BTB before BTSF showed up.
No one is arguing that super fiesta has been around before btb super fiesta. Just why have 3+ playlist that have a super fiesta style. There was no need to even bring btb super fiesta to begin with. Who even makes up these game types and thinks they’ll be good ideas for halo 5? Super fiesta has been around yes we can all agree to that. And original btb players have switched to btb sf, that’s where most of the population is. Super fiesta players ply only super fiesta cuz they don’t wanna deal with vehicles in btb sf.
No one is arguing that super fiesta has been around before btb super fiesta. Just why have 3+ playlist that have a super fiesta style. There was no need to even bring btb super fiesta to begin with. Who even makes up these game types and thinks they’ll be good ideas for halo 5? Super fiesta has been around yes we can all agree to that. And original btb players have switched to btb sf, that’s where most of the population is. Super fiesta players ply only super fiesta cuz they don’t wanna deal with vehicles in btb sf.
Well, yeah. But I was countering your statement claiming people only play BTB Fiesta to complete commendations with the fact that if that were the case, they'd have long since done it with Super Fiesta since it's been around longer. That is all.

Bringing in a game type that turns out to apparently be 10x more popular than its regular counterpart is a bad idea? I mean, yeah, a bad idea if you're a fan of regular BTB. That much is certain, but for the game as a whole, not at all. I'm not sure I can get behind your logic that seems to suggest getting more people to play is a bad idea (if those people aren't playing the game type you like, that is).

Now BTB is what it's going to be in Halo 5. Hopefully, they'll fix what I felt were its shortcomings in the next game. Like actually make maps that support more vehicular game play (i.e. tanks and wraiths) and more variety of weapons on maps so there's a chance that less people decide that what they spawn with is better than what they can pick up (i.e. less of a "one gun" game).
ZaedynFel wrote:
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Couldn't find a game for two days in a row and I can only tolerate the Fiesta version in small doses. I'll likely just have to stick with MCC if this trend continues.
Yeah, I'm looking at the number of people who try to play BTB every minute throughout the day and you need at least 16 within a 5-minute period, and this just isn't happening.

Lists like this tend to do amazing if we switch them to rotational though.
You removed my ability to play with my friends in Big Team Battle so it kind of discourages us from even attempting to search the BTB playlist. And that’s all I used to ever search to play in H5. I am able to find BTB games instantly on smurfs though, which is nice.

Does there happen to be MMR restrictions or Team Balancer in Husky Raid, Infection, or Grifball?
Chimera30 wrote:
eLantern wrote:
  • Rotate Big Team Super Fiesta (BTSF) with Castle Wars and regular BTB. This would mean bringing BTB back over to the social environment. These would all fit into a categorical theme of providing social big team experiences. This guarantees that none of these big team experiences draws potential interest from each other; thus, improving the population in all of them when they're available and most likely for other playlists too. Not sure what the best rotation policy might be for these, but I imagine rotating them on a week-to-week basis should provide the best population results for each playlist.
A potential issue with this could be that when BTB rotates in, the BTBSF crowd would abandon the game for that period.
Is it a potential possibility? I suppose, but there are countless other potential possibilities that could result from that change too.

Refusing to try a change based on a single potential possibility that lacks supporting evidence would mean that an unreasonable fear was simply dictating the decision.
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Sure, maybe some would go over to the smaller Fiesta playlist option you suggested, but considering that Josh said BTBSF is close to 10x more popular than BTB, that's a lot of players to risk losing, even temporarily.
I suspect, and thus argue, that the vast majority of the player base found within BTSF would indeed invest time in other social or Big Team playlists. I don't get the impression that it has such a dedicated hardcore following that 343i actually risks losing a significant number of its active players if it rotated out. Nevertheless, it is possible that I could be wrong. But, even if I am wrong and "some" players step away from the game for a period of time as they await BTSF to return -- it would only be temporarily.

Here are some pertinent question worth asking IMO:
  • How many of those players who choose to search BTSF do so simply because they can actually find a quality Big Team match in it and/or it allows them to find one fairly quickly?
  • With BTSF rotated out for a couple weeks will that simply allow those players to easily transition over to BTB and Castle Wars because they may actually find quality quick matches in them?
  • How many are so dedicated to BTSF that they actually refuse to find enjoyment with any other playlist, even non-Big Team options?
  • In particular, how many of these players already interchange between BTSF, Super Fiesta, and Huskey Raid vs only play BTSF?
At minimum, this proposed change would shed some intriguing light on some of the tendencies of the player base. Given how BTSF is designed to be highly social I can't imagine the vast majority of its player base wouldn't just find other Big Team and/or social playlists to occupy their time in while awaiting BTSF's return verse quitting Halo 5 permanently or even temporarily. Will some speak out and rail against it? I imagine so, but any change will create people who become disgruntled. It boils down to the actual long-term impact on the game's population and I don't foresee this doing any long-term damage, but instead helping to preserve the vast majority of experiences from a long-term perspective.
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The idea that these 3 big team playlists could co-exist without drawing attention from each other is predicated on the idea that the players in these playlists would be fine playing each of them. But we've already seen that classic BTB fans in this thread don't like BTBSF, and the numbers BTBSF draws in over regular BTB suggests that most of the BTBSF players don't want regular BTB.
I wouldn't quite say that this idea of co-existing Big Team playlists within a weekly rotation is predicated on a belief that ALL the players in these playlists would be fine playing each and every one of them. Instead, it's an idea that's based off of a strong realization that there's plenty of population overlap (& potential overlap) to warrant this experiment given the positives that it would have on each playlist's population by not having to compete directly against one-another for a share of a player-base that naturally has some clear overlap based on team size alone.

And again, I do wonder how many people may find themselves reluctantly choosing BTSF over BTB because its population helps to re-enforce its popularity. If a player can't find a quality match within a reasonable amount of time in BTB, but can within BTSF the decision is somewhat already made for them. If they really want to play with a group of friends, leading to a so-called stacked team, there isn't much choice as to what playlist they need to search. My proposal would help answer some of these intriguing questions while temporarily removing (per a fairly short rotation) a popular social playlist that contains some overlapping experiences with other playlists (Fiesta & Big Team) before returning.
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It just seems like there could be a chance that a huge chunk of the population disappears whenever BTBSF rotates out, if this plan were to be implemented. Ideally, in this proposed system of yours, every week that a player's preferred list is not in rotation, they would just grin and bear it for the duration of the rotation. But that's a lofty ideal and may not be realistic.
This is exactly what 343i have elected to do with a vast number of the playlists in this game and as Josh has stated time and time again the data suggests it leads to a better experience for the vast majority of players. I just think this concept should be tried out on a thematic experience level while building a more concrete rotation schedule that can give players a clearer picture of when particular experiences (within a theme) will revisit.
eLantern wrote:
This is exactly what 343i have elected to do with a vast number of the playlists in this game and as Josh has stated time and time again the data suggests it leads to a better experience for the vast majority of players.
Yes, they have moved several playlists to rotational status over the course of H5's lifespan, but the difference between those playlists and BTBSF is that they were all towards the bottom of the weekly popularity lists. BTBSF, on the other hand, sounds like it's towards the top of that list (since Josh hasn't published such a list in awhile, we don't know for sure and can only go off his descriptions of matchmaking health). Looking back to those historical lists, in 07/2018, BTB was in the top 50% of those popularity lists, but later in 11/2018, it had dropped into the bottom 50%. At some point in those 4 months, BTBSF was added as a playlist, and it's possible that it kept siphoning off BTB players even after it's original planned 2 week stint. But unlike other rotational playlists that began to lose popularity after 2 weeks, BTBSF stayed strong. So where other rotational playlists may transiently pull away players from other playlists, it's a temporary change and people eventually go back to their normal preffered playlists. But since this didn't happen with BTBSF, it seems unlikely that people were playing it reluctantly. Maybe a miniscule number of players, but if it wasn't legitimately popular then it would have waned like all the other rotationals. The fact that it didn't and only continued to gain popularity suggests that it's main crowd is not choosing it reluctantly in lue of regular BTB.

Looking at the scenario with no stake in the fate of BTB or even H5 in general, it just seems to me that Josh has no reason to treat regular BTB different than other playlists that lost popularity and had to be regulated to rotational status. You and Lukepowa are probably the most vocal advocates for regular BTB and while you make good suggestions, I can't help but feel this is all because you just happen to like BTB and are using it's history as a part of Halo as a reason why it should remain permanent, or--in the case of your proposal--more often rotated in than other rotational playlists. I think it's great that you fight so hard for the sake of your preferred playlist, but at the same time I also wonder why BTB should be given special consideration not afforded to other playlists that were in its same position. Especially a consideration that involves temporarily removing one of the more popular playlists. To me, it just seems fairest to continue using the data trends to decide how to consolidate playlists (it may not be the happiest method, but it's certainly the least biased).
It likely didn't drop in population like other rotationals because it's a Fiesta playlist. I'm sure if you turned almost any other playlist into Fiesta you'd have similar results.
Chimera30 wrote:
Yes, they have moved several playlists to rotational status over the course of H5's lifespan, but the difference between those playlists & BTSF is that they're all towards the bottom of the weekly popularity lists. BTSF, on the other hand, sounds like it's towards the top of that list. Looking back to those historical lists, in 07/2018, BTB was in the top 50% of those popularity lists, but later in 11/2018, it had dropped into the bottom 50%. At some point in those 4 months, BTSF was added as a playlist, & it's possible that it kept siphoning off BTB players even after it's original planned 2 week stint. But unlike other rotational playlists that began to lose popularity after 2 weeks, BTSF stayed strong. So where other rotational playlists may transiently pull away players from other playlists, it's a temporary change & people eventually go back to their normal preferred playlists.
I fully understand & recognize that the proposed change I'm recommending is entailing a new take on the rotational concept. I'm well aware that I'm advocating for some playlists that aren't struggling with their own pop numbers to also roll into a rotational status.

I know the current parameters that are in place to justify playlists becoming rotational is strictly meant to deal with playlists reflecting unhealthy population numbers & under those parameters the results have been proven to be helpful. But, I'm suggesting that there are similar benefits to be had by taking the rotational concept beyond its current parameters designed strictly for struggling playlists. I'm recommending to move the vast majority of the social environment over to a thematic experience concept that rotates these playlists within themed groups.

It's designed to consolidate the number of active playlists while maintaining reasonable access to a fairly wide variety of mode experiences under a thematic structure. The thematic structure provides several benefits in how it limits siphoning from potential overlapping interests while maintaining fairly wide access to general themed experiences & gives particular experiences an opportunity to return more often; plus, under a more transparent set schedule. It should benefit ALL playlists by way of improved matchmaking & in-turn a vast majority of the population. It also increases the likelihood that players who return for particular experiences are inspired to return more often.
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But since this didn't happen with BTSF, it seems unlikely that people were playing it reluctantly. Maybe a minuscule number of players, but if it wasn't legitimately popular then it would have waned like all the other rotationals. The fact that it didn't & only continued to gain popularity suggests that it's main crowd isn't choosing it reluctantly in lue of regular BTB.
Does BTSF continue to gain popularity since it's inception? I'm not so sure, but as BTB struggled it certainly helped direct players who just wanted a Big Team experience over to it instead.

There are many factors that can help explain why BTSF has the history it does.

Here are a few:
  • H5 has an incredibly deep sandbox thanks to the REQ system. Most playlists don't offer vast access to the sandbox. Fiesta playlists which don't force players to deal with the REQ's collection system to gain access are naturally going to be popular. BTSF includes some REQ vehicles where as the other Fiesta playlists don't. These things alone will gravitate a good percentage of player-based interest over to it from other Fiesta & Big Team playlists.
  • BTSF was introduced at a time when BTB hadn't received an update for well over a year which helped make BTSF's initial introduction all that much more popular since it was the first new thing related to Big Team in such a long period of time.
  • As population shifts over to a particular available experience & away from another available experience it can begin a self-serving prophecy of which playlist will remain more popular going forward since any potential matchmaking performance issues will help direct future interest. This is particularly true between playlists that share high player count requirements & overlapping experiences.
To be clear I'm not suggesting that the vast majority of people who spend time in BTSF do so reluctantly, but that there's a high certainty a percentage must.
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Looking at the scenario with no stake in the fate of BTB or even H5 in general, it just seems to me that Josh has no reason to treat regular BTB different than other playlists that lost popularity and had to be regulated to rotational status. You & Lukepowa are probably the most vocal advocates for regular BTB & while you make good suggestions, I can't help but feel this is all b/c you just happen to like BTB & are using it's history as a part of Halo as a reason why it should remain permanent, or--in the case of your proposal--more often rotated in than other rotational playlists. I think it's great that you fight so hard for the sake of your preferred playlist, but at the same time I also wonder why BTB should be given special consideration not afforded to other playlists that were in its same position. Especially a consideration that involves temporarily removing one of the more popular playlists.
Yes, I fought for BTB. And can direct you back to where I laid out some solid reasoning & history to support my fight for it, but I also acknowledged that if it were provided a fair chance & it still didn't find acceptable matchmaking success then I'd support it becoming rotational. Unfortunately, I think that's where we're at.

Now it's been announced that H5 will be undergoing some heavy playlist changes for next year. It's pretty clear that some consolidation is at the forefront of the sustain team's minds; therefore, I'm offering a recommendation that I feel would benefit ALL playlists & the vast majority of the population.

Personally, I think it's a bit short-sighted for anyone to believe that the best policy is to allow H5 to continue condensing & catering its permanent playlists down to one particular popular mode which is Fiesta& then rotate so many other playlist experiences within a few slots thus causing these experiences to return so seldom that people stop caring. Perhaps data suggests this is the right decision, but IMO it requires people to lose view of a bigger long-term picture of player incentives. If everything that's regularly available becomes a reflection of one primary experience within the game & all of the other experiences basically take eons to re-appear or simply become unplayable because general interest in the game continues to plummet outside the single remaining faction then the population will only continue to steadily decrease instead of showing any signs of plateauing.
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To me, it just seems fairest to continue using the data trends to decide how to consolidate playlists (it may not be the happiest method, but it's certainly the least biased).
As I've been saying, I think relying strictly on the trend for future direction can only lead in one direction which is the slow & continued demise of the population as everything begins to cater to what the remaining majority appear to prefer. There are plenty of merits to it, but I think there's more value in focusing on a plan that takes a more broad-based long-term sustainability approach that doesn't simply chase the trend. So, which one is more biased? Hard to say, but I hope it's at least clear where my reasoning stands.
I cant find any matches on mcc.H2A,H2 and H4 btb is dead.Is this bc im from croatia or is it just dead completely :'(
I cant find any matches on mcc.H2A,H2 and H4 btb is dead.Is this bc im from croatia or is it just dead completely :'(
This thread is for H5 BTB, but it could be due to your location or the times you're searching. I can regularly find games in H2A and H4 BTB.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
I cant find any matches on mcc.H2A,H2 and H4 btb is dead.Is this bc im from croatia or is it just dead completely :'(
This thread is for H5 BTB, but it could be due to your location or the times you're searching. I can regularly find games in H2A and H4 BTB.
sorry...halo 5 btb is also dead for me..Social 4v4 finds pretty quick but thats it..
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
I know you've mentioned in the past that the Sustain Team doesn't have the resources to rework aspects of the game's UI/UX to modify the XP/RP payouts for individual Legacy playlists. But, how is it that playlists can get a Double XP boost whenever?

Why not apply a permanent Double XP boost to struggling playlists or constantly re-apply the temporary Double XP boost such that it becomes a permanent feature to said playlist?
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
I know you've mentioned in the past that the Sustain Team doesn't have the resources to rework aspects of the game's UI/UX to modify the XP/RP payouts for individual Legacy playlists. But, how is it that playlists can get a Double XP boost whenever?

Why not apply a permanent Double XP boost to struggling playlists or constantly re-apply the temporary Double XP boost such that it becomes a permanent feature to said playlist?
We don't generally want to use XP as a way to prop up struggling playlists. Lists generally struggle because they aren't as universally liked with respect to the current population. If we put XP boosts on them, players feel like they have to play a list they would usually rather not play. That's OK for little special highlight periods, but not as an ongoing attempt to inflate a list people don't like as much. That leads to players playing the list unhappily, and burning out faster.
ZaedynFel wrote:
We don't generally want to use XP as a way to prop up struggling playlists.
Can you say if the BTB population is getting worse or staying the same? I hardly search in it anymore because I haven't gotten a game whenever I tried to search.

Edit.
ZaedynFel wrote:
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
I know you've mentioned in the past that the Sustain Team doesn't have the resources to rework aspects of the game's UI/UX to modify the XP/RP payouts for individual Legacy playlists. But, how is it that playlists can get a Double XP boost whenever?

Why not apply a permanent Double XP boost to struggling playlists or constantly re-apply the temporary Double XP boost such that it becomes a permanent feature to said playlist?
We don't generally want to use XP as a way to prop up struggling playlists. Lists generally struggle because they aren't as universally liked with respect to the current population. If we put XP boosts on them, players feel like they have to play a list they would usually rather not play. That's OK for little special highlight periods, but not as an ongoing attempt to inflate a list people don't like as much. That leads to players playing the list unhappily, and burning out faster.
But, what about the opposite? When particular lists receive noticeably less XP payout per the investment of time people are incentivized to ignore said playlists.

While it think it'd be beneficial to boost the XP payouts of some of the struggling playlists I can understand why you wouldn't want to have to pick and choose to prop up particular ones. With that said, how about permanently boosting ALL of the PvP playlists within the Arena & Social environments such that there's more incentive for players to spend time in them vs a PvE playlist like Firefight which doesn't require SBMM?

There are people who are trying to grind XP in order to reach rank 152 who spend the vast majority of their time in Firefight solely because of how it rewards a sizable amount of XP. That just seems wrong to me and counter-intuitive to the goal of incentivizing players into playlists where population is required to improve the skill-based experience.
Actually think it would be a good idea to remove the playlist from the regular rotation and make it rotational. The decisions that were made over the course of the last couple years and the resulting low population have effectively killed the playlist, in addition to the game being over 4 years old.

From the weapon "tuning" butchered BR, to the 15/16 lobby glitch, to the lack of quality "refreshes", to the team balancer being implemented far too late in the games life cycle, to dumpster fire ranking system for BTB. There's no way the playlist will get a magical population increase given its current state.

No point in trying to search a playlist that rarely finds a game.
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