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OP ZaedynFel

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ZaedynFel wrote:
I would like to suggest that vehicles are on set timers for every map. Specifically flying ones and heavy vehicles. Entombed was awful with a Wraith that would respawn every 90 seconds, as well as Dispelled having 2 wasps that would respawn just about as fast.
All vehicles are set on timers after their destruction. Typically 3 minutes for banshee, 60, 90, or 2 minutes for ghost, 3 minute wraiths, 2 minute wasps, etc. Do you mean uniformly across all maps they should be the same timing?
Yes. Uniformly. Some maps are different than others and it shows. Heavy vehicles are usually a 3 minute timer. But the Wraith on Viking respawns at a significantly longer time than the Wraith on Entombed. It's literally 3 minutes vs 1 minute 30 seconds. Uniformity across the maps for vehicles is just as detrimental to gameplay as weapon pads.

There's a reason 343 made weapon pads noticable to everyone, and to be honest, given the different maps there are and how BTB and Halo in general is about map control, there should be some sort of uniformity. I don't wanna play a guessing game on 8-ish BTB maps and not knowing if a tank is gonna respawn at this rate, or the banshee at that. Or the ghosts. I wanna be able to know, hey, ghosts are on respawn at 90 seconds. Tanks will be 3 minutes. Something concrete you know? It's not much of an issue for me, but lower-tiered players would be especially more mindful and attentive if they didn't have to guess either.
I assume this has been mentioned, but just in case. I apologize for the redundancy if it has. I have not had a chance to read the whole thread.

Remove some of the anti vehicle weapons. Some maps have combinations of two Snipers, a Spartan Laser, two Plasma Pistols, Rail Gun, and a Hydra. That's too many options which, in higher tiered play, make the vehicles obsolete.

For example Viking: remove Spartan Laser, have only one PP and one Sniper, and maybe even one Banshee.

Basically thin out the vehicles themselves on the anti vehicle weapons, add Pistol starts and we're good to go.

I would say remove the SL from all maps. It's too easy to destroy vehicles with them.
Loadout: I think the Shotgun could be a really interesting replacement for the BR as a starting secondary, or maybe the DMR.

Vehicles: I think the Gungoose should be used more; it's such a great vehicle, but I barely see it outside Warzone and the Meridian missions in the campaign. As for the Warthog, I like the randomness of them. Sometimes there's a normal Warthog, sometimes it's a Gausshog, sometimes there's even a Hannibal. However, I think the damage you get when you're hit by one should be decreased; not only does that degrade the Warthog's status to what is first and foremost a battering ram, but it's also very annoying (and unrealistic) for someone with a state-of-the-art suit of armor and energy shields to get taken out my a jeep moving at 10 miles an hour. At high speeds I get it, it'd realistically be an instant kill, but again, it shouldn't be so buffed at lower speeds.

Gamemodes: Where is Big Team Breakout?!?!?! Slayer, Strongholds, Assault and CTF are all well and good, but Breakout, Grifball, and Snipers would all be great (and unique) BTB additions. Also, to save a spot on the Social playlist, Big Team Super Fiesta should probably be absorbed into the normal BTB playlist once it gets a little older. Just my two cents.
If you are going to have a hidden MmR system, why not make BTB a ranked playlist? If not, you need to fix the system so high MMR teams of 7/8 do not timeout and have difficulty finding games. We drop to team size of 4 or 5 and instantly find games. That’s not how it’s supposed to work. We shouldn’t be choosing to go in BTB solo or with smaller teams just to get a game where we have to rely on random teammates to determine the success/failure of the game.

Loadouts are fine.
NLIGHTN wrote:
If you are going to have a hidden MmR system, why not make BTB a ranked playlist? If not, you need to fix the system so high MMR teams of 7/8 do not timeout and have difficulty finding games. We drop to team size of 4 or 5 and instantly find games. That’s not how it’s supposed to work. We shouldn’t be choosing to go in BTB solo or with smaller teams just to get a game where we have to rely on random teammates to determine the success/failure of the game.

Loadouts are fine.
Already addressed this. If you aren't finding matches at 7/8, it means there's no one you can play who would have more than a 39% of beating you.

There's no point in allowing that matchup, especially when players consistently quit out of matches that bad, so you wouldn't be playing anyways.
D4rkDeath wrote:
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Man, that was some excellent feedback. I may not agree with everything you said, and I'll discuss some of our differences and where I think you kind of contradict yourself slightly, but no doubt that was a fantastic read. I know you're someone who's extremely passionate for Halo 5 BTB and has an absolute ton of experience with H5 BTB customs and forge, so I appreciated and respect your thoughts on the matter a lot.
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The [pre-tuned] BR actually hurt the playlist as it was too good...
100% agreed.
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I don't think Stabilization Jets or Long Barrel is a current fix as it encourages cross-mapping...
Just curious as to how you perceive the Long-Barrel H5BR encouraging cross-map firing?

From my perspective I can't see how you make that connection.
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The current BR is not a bad choice to start with because you want to pick up a different weapon which is good.
A primary reason players want to replace the default H5BR during a match is because it's out-shined in just about every capacity compared to other precision weapons. In comparison to some options, like the Carbine & Light Rifle, it possesses no discernible advantage whatsoever. To me, that's a bad weapon design. It's bad for both the gun-play and game-play.

As explained to us, the weapon tuning update was about ensuring each weapon had its niche area of strength and that's exactly what the H5BR should possess -- a distinct, but limited, advantage in some capacity against other precision options. The Long-Barrel H5BR provides this in some form against all other precision options.
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The use of a multitude of weapons instead of just always having that one you keep improves the BTB experience because it makes things less predictable.
100% agreed. It's also why designing weapons to possess specific niche strengths while fulfilling particular roles within the sandbox is key. It gives players reason to use them (within their intended roles) and purpose to seek out optional choices.
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Classic Scope BR/AR start steps the current BR up a notch, but doesn't have great cross-mapping ability.
[default] Recon BR RRR stats:
  • Hip-Fire RRR = 30.5 meters (or 10 world units)
  • Smart-Link RRR = 61.1 meters (or 20 world units)
Classic BR RRR stats:
  • Hip-Fire RRR = 30.5 meters (or 10 world units)
  • Smart-Link RRR = 63.7 meters (or 21 world units)
Long-Barrel Recon BR RRR stats:
  • Hip-Fire RRR = 36.6 meters (or 12 world units)
  • Smart-Link RRR = 73.3 meters (or 24 world units)
These all deal with the H5BR's recoil limiting their effectiveness beyond their RRRs. The RRRs simply help with the weapon's consistency within a particular distance. Beyond those RRR distances the weapon's effectiveness is going to be the same between all three options which is specifically designed to restrict effective cross-mapping.
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Cross mapping is horrible. It encourages players to move less which pushes Flag/Assault games into more of a stalemate...
For the most part, I'm on the same page as you here; though, the term "horrible" is entirely relative to the effectiveness of the cross-mapping capability.
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...these improved BR variants just encourage a staleness that people have gotten used to. They don't promote a better game-play experience.
I understand that an improved gun-play experience does not automatically equate toward an improved game-play experience.

But, I think it's important to acknowledge that the Stabilization Jets H5BR is NOT the equivalent of the pre-tuned H5BR as a cross-map laser. Yes, without the recoil the cross-mapping effectiveness is significantly increased in comparison to the current variants that deal with recoil, but the tuning that the H5BR received towards its' burst, optimal & sub-optimal TTKs, and RRRs still make it less efficient and effective as a cross-map laser despite the lack of recoil.

In my opinion, this leads to it being an improved option over the pre-tuned H5BR, but I do have reservations with regards to it being an ideal choice for the game-play experience. And these reservations are also another reason why I personally favor the Long-Barrel attachment which provides the weapon with some actual niche strengths in relation to all other precision options while still limiting its cross-map capability.

Though, something else to weigh and consider is the overall population attraction difference between a mode that focuses on providing a better gun-play experience vs a better game-play experience. If many people are turned off by the gun-play experience then the game-play experience will suffer due to population issues.
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A suggestion really could be Mag/AR...
While the standard H5 Magnum is a very solid utility weapon choice there are a few reasons why I think it's not an ideal choice for the traditional "Battle" playlist.
  1. It's my personal opinion that having the traditional "Battle" playlist feature the Battle Rifle as its utility precision weapon presents a welcomed change from the typical Mag/AR loadout seen in most other arena playlists. And I say that as someone who's a big fan of the Mag/AR loadout for most other arena playlists.
  2. The Magnum's effectiveness as a cross-map weapon against players is fairly similar to that of the Stabilization Jets H5BR. The Stabilization Jets H5BR is essentially a poor-man's Magnum since the Magnum also doesn't have to deal with recoil, it doesn't concern itself with maintaining accuracy throughout a burst, and it's more lethal. So, you could argue that the Magnum is actually a bit more effective despite the slightly shorter Smart-Link RRR.

    [standard] Magnum RRR stats:
    • Hip-Fire RRR = 36.6 meters (or 12 world units)
    • Smart-Link RRR = 57.6 meters (or 19 world units)
  3. The Magnum's not as effective of a weapon against vehicles in comparison to the BR.
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BR/Mag
It’s an interesting option as it provides two precision utility weapons.

But, absent the intrigue revolved around having two precision loadout weapons, I've got to say that if you're willing to consider the standard Magnum you might as well be receptive to the Stabilization Jets BR.
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Kinetic BR/AR for vehicle based maps and no longer use the standard warthog variant.
These are intriguing ideas too.
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Mag/AR for smaller maps.
IMO, swap the Mag for the Stabilization Jets BR. This is basically what I was saying within my comment regarding the starting weapons HERE. And it relates to my recommendation for a ranked Squad Battle.
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If the playlist must have the same starting weapons for all maps, then I would suggest the BR/Mag start or just Mag/AR starts.
I disagree here and again if you're advocating for the Magnum than I don't understand why you frown on the Stabilization Jets BR.

Overall, I just think Magnums should simply be map pick-ups within a traditional "Battle" playlist for the reasons I stated earlier.

The Magnum is a better room-based precision option than the BR and much more effective at cross-mapping than the typical (non-Stabilization Jets) BR.
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Kinetic BRs should be available on heavier vehicle maps giving it a real reason to be picked up.
This gets back to your interesting idea regarding the Kinectic BR for heavier vehicle maps. And it could potentially be paired with your two precision loadout idea. I could see the Kinectic BR essentially replacing the AR while the Magnum replaces the Stabilization Jets BR. This is assuming that you're actually advocating for a weapon that can cross-map against players somewhat effectively which is the opposite of what you originally stated.
I do understand that I contradict myself a little here and there. I suppose my points are spread out a little bit. I think it stems from the fact I can’t have everything I want, but neither can anyone else. To further my contradiction, yes I don’t like cross mapping and want to keep it toned down. However, the magnum starts might add to that some, but it wouldn’t affect the vehicles as much as if it was the stabilized BR. RRR aside, that weapon provides better precision on cross mapping a vehicle compared to bullets that spread. I don’t think people are considering how this affects the vehicles. After playing some games with the stabilized br, I just notice lack of player movement and vehicles feeling less viable, especially team shooting. It’s too much.

Like I said at the beginning of my post, there are some hard decisions to make. We could do what H2 started with, BTB SMG starts! I’m joking!

All in all, I think the best decision will be made with the information 343 likely has. I’ve tested a lot of stuff, but I will be (personally) much happier with new maps, map fixes, and facelifts. I still enjoy the fact that I will dump my starting weapons for other weapons on the map. Thank you eLantern for that response, you have some good nuggets of feedback in there.
Loadout: I think the Shotgun could be a really interesting replacement for the BR as a starting secondary, or maybe the DMR.

Vehicles: I think the Gungoose should be used more; it's such a great vehicle, but I barely see it outside Warzone and the Meridian missions in the campaign. As for the Warthog, I like the randomness of them. Sometimes there's a normal Warthog, sometimes it's a Gausshog, sometimes there's even a Hannibal. However, I think the damage you get when you're hit by one should be decreased; not only does that degrade the Warthog's status to what is first and foremost a battering ram, but it's also very annoying (and unrealistic) for someone with a state-of-the-art suit of armor and energy shields to get taken out my a jeep moving at 10 miles an hour. At high speeds I get it, it'd realistically be an instant kill, but again, it shouldn't be so buffed at lower speeds.

Gamemodes: Where is Big Team Breakout?!?!?! Slayer, Strongholds, Assault and CTF are all well and good, but Breakout, Grifball, and Snipers would all be great (and unique) BTB additions. Also, to save a spot on the Social playlist, Big Team Super Fiesta should probably be absorbed into the normal BTB playlist once it gets a little older. Just my two cents.
I find your introduction of the Shotgun as a secondary interesting, although, with a Shotgun in hand it just lends to people camping and crouching corners, which is increasingly frustrating to deal with when it happens over and over.

I get your point on vehicles. It drives me insane that a near-stationary vehicle can splatter me.....even some just literally turning around (ghost).

I didn't want to bring your suggestion up in my post, but since you did, I'm going to agree I'm all for a fun, goofy version of BTB Breakout. 8v8 on a few larger scale Breakout-styled maps could be fun. I wouldn't suggest a flag to capture as one or two deaths is basically round over in no time. Maybe the same settings Breakout v2 currently uses and roll with that. I wouldn't suggest a full-on integration with regular BTB, but maybe as a Featured playlist at some point. Strongholds is meh to me as I rarely cared for that game type. I'd rather see a 1-Flag or 1-Bomb objective mode instead.
Simple start thinking outside the box and stop making every map round or semetrical or matching. You dont have to make them like that anymore. Look at the numbers playing fortnite or cod etc.. on their maps. Nothings the same or round or semetrical and halo doesnt have to be either. Seriously time to think outside the box...
Heck have a 5 teir level map wheres it an open concept and players can move up and down. it doesnt have to be drive in a cirlce everytime with a warthog and spawn kill.
i miss the OG H5 BR... i think the stabilization BR is a better choice for BTB, jut my opinion
I think that may be fine include the phaeton, the rest is perfect.
the Phaeton would be OP when teams get it, like how the wasp was and is. I think the wasp is fine in BTB, but the Phaeton would be too much
Starting weapon - I think we should try pistols only or P\AR, seeing is how a lot of the people who made the BTB maps said they made them with the pistol in mind and as the starting weapon. I would also have H2BR and\or long barrel BRs on the map as pick ups and completely remove the H5BR off all maps.

Maps\Vehicles - There are a few maps that I feel vehicles have problems but I can't think of the names at the moment lol Tanks need to be made a thing on a few maps. I miss tank battles. The default Chaingun Warhogs are too weak, go to the next level up. Actually, I think I would do this on all vehicles minus the flying ones. I have zero issues with flying vehicles as long as there are ways to take them down. I really enjoy destroying them actually lol Gameplay wise, there should be BTB heavies variant in there no if ends or butts!! I think I would consider getting rid of strongholds as I just find that the game mode snowballs fast unless you have two good teams. I also think maybe having CTF and Assault might be too much as a lot of people find them too similar to be honest. Maybe try oddball.... but have more then one ball. My friends and I use to do this in previous Halo games when we had LAN parties and it was a lot of fun. We had two or three balls...I don't know, just a thought lol Otherwise I would just have Slayer, CTF or Assault. Slayer has to be pushed more, maybe 60/40 against the other modes in the playlists nothing too crazy, As I feel more people like that the best.

Maybe put BTB into ranked every other season, unless the population is just a lot better in one or the other then don't switch back. Might be worth trying.

Also, and this applies to any playlist, overtime should be first team to cap a flag wins. Time should NOT continue after a team does. It should be Game Over Man!!!
INFINUT wrote:
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Scavenger is one of the most BTB non-sense maps I ever seen. Spawns are randoms, the map sometimes presents frame drops which are so bad (especially if you go in Top Mid). I think that’s all
eLantern wrote:
Savieer wrote:
- Remove Scavenger
Why?

In my opinion, it's one of the very best BTB maps in Halo 5. And it pairs extremely well with the Strongholds mode.
Scavenger is one of the most non-sense maps I ever seen in my opinion. Spawns are randoms, there are some points of the map which present frame drops (especially if you go in Top mid). It’s not balanced and definitely not good for Strongholds.
Ah, I forgot another map to remove from the playlist: Viking. Why? Because it’s not adapted for a H5 gameplay and let’s don’t talk about warthog Gausses ... they should remove them if they want to keep Viking in the map rotation.
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Savieer wrote:
eLantern wrote:
Savieer wrote:
- Remove Scavenger
Why?

In my opinion, it's one of the very best BTB maps in Halo 5. And it pairs extremely well with the Strongholds mode.
Scavenger is one of the most non-sense maps I ever seen in my opinion. Spawns are randoms, there are some points of the map which present frame drops (especially if you go in Top mid). It’s not balanced and definitely not good for Strongholds.
Ah, I forgot another map to remove from the playlist: Viking. Why? Because it’s not adapted for a H5 gameplay and let’s don’t talk about warthog Gausses ... they should remove them if they want to keep Viking in the map rotation.
Scavenger and Viking are both in my top 5 current favorite maps especially scavenger strongholds.

I agree with your take on gauss hog on Viking. It’s the more powerful asset on the map and the cross mapping with that turret is just insane. I would like to see the use of oni chain gun warthogs in a instance like this. Still a beast of a hog but you can’t insta kill players off their spawn behind shotty cave from caster side with it. Some cases where a regular hog wouldn’t be ideal (like Viking) throw in an oni.

Imo gauss hogs should be reserved for btb fiesta. They have been op in every instance they’ve been used in btb. Remember when there was a gauss hog on the first mm version of recurve? That was nuts.
I 100% agree with what iTs Heavies posted .

Some things I'll re iterate...

  • Please for the LOVE OF GOD fix the 15/16 matchmaking glitch. I saw josh post in here saying it's not a glitch and that it just means it can't find anyone to put in the game that has over a 39% chance at beating you. The 8th player isn't going to make a difference. I'd rather play and lose then wait 10 minutes to get a good 8th player and win. As long as they can run in a straight line, throw them in the game. Its btb not 4s. When I'm searching with like 3 other friends in BTB and we have to sit there for 10 minutes to get a game because the algorithm is trying to find a certain player.. not worth it. I barely play BTB anymore because this happens 90% of the games I search and it takes like 5 minutes to reset.... make it 1 minute. Sometimes it takes me 10 minutes to find a game because 1 person backs out of queue and then you just sit there unless you quit your build.. then search again.. and guess what?? Happens again!
  • Jet BRs
  • Rank BTB
ZaedynFel wrote:
I can look into starting w/, e.g., 7v7, but we haven't tried that in a long time, so it would require extensive testing first to make sure it still works the way we expect it to after all the changes since we last used it. That amount of testing alone might be hard given current resources on Infinite.
This. I thought this feature was something phased out long ago. I welcomed the ability for matches to start as even teams down 1 player from max. I remember the old days where 4v4 matches could start 3v3, even though join-in-progress wasn't something we had back in the H2/H3 days.

A lot of the BTB Matchmaking problems that deters people is the 15/16 issue explained. I'm sure more people would be welcome of it dropping 1 person to start the match 7v7, just so it gets the game going and prevents players from waiting 5 minutes for it to error out and potentially repeat the process again. Just ensure if it works that there's no way for the same person to repeatedly get dropped out of a search to balance the teams at 7v7. If the forced drop happens at like the 3 or 4 minute mark that'd even cut back on times even if you were dropped from the first search because rarely do I play and get into a match without a couple failed searches beforehand.
Sypriz wrote:
I think that may be fine include the phaeton, the rest is perfect.
the Phaeton would be OP when teams get it, like how the wasp was and is. I think the wasp is fine in BTB, but the Phaeton would be too much
Agree with you here. The Phaeton would be too much to add to BTB... way too powerful if you ask me.
ZaedynFel wrote:
I can look into starting w/, e.g., 7v7, but we haven't tried that in a long time, so it would require extensive testing first to make sure it still works the way we expect it to after all the changes since we last used it. That amount of testing alone might be hard given current resources on Infinite.
This. I thought this feature was something phased out long ago. I welcomed the ability for matches to start as even teams down 1 player from max. I remember the old days where 4v4 matches could start 3v3, even though join-in-progress wasn't something we had back in the H2/H3 days.

A lot of the BTB Matchmaking problems that deters people is the 15/16 issue explained. I'm sure more people would be welcome of it dropping 1 person to start the match 7v7, just so it gets the game going and prevents players from waiting 5 minutes for it to error out and potentially repeat the process again. Just ensure if it works that there's no way for the same person to repeatedly get dropped out of a search to balance the teams at 7v7. If the forced drop happens at like the 3 or 4 minute mark that'd even cut back on times even if you were dropped from the first search because rarely do I play and get into a match without a couple failed searches beforehand.
And what if there's no solo players within the lobby? Forcing someone to be dropped who's in a fireteam could lead to the whole fireteam backing out.

And if there is/are solo players, what if dropping one of them throws the team balance way out of wack? In other words, outside the acceptable standards.

Plus, getting dropped by the system can be very frustrating and it may discourage players from wanting to bother continuing to search or play the game.

I'm not outright hating on this idea, but I just want to make sure any unintended consequences are thoroughly thought through relating towards it.

If we're accepting of match odds going beyond the 61:39 limit with a dropped player why not consider allowing the odds to expand a bit more under the "15/16 issue" to help fill that remaining spot by adding a player instead of dropping a player? This would be more beneficial overall in my opinion.

I don't necessarily like allowing the system to go beyond the 61:39 limit, but it probably would be better than the search timing out. And I'd rather see it occurring by adding someone rather than dropping someone. Or, perhaps the system could choice between the two options based on what allows a more balanced match to occur that's outside the typical 61:39 restriction, but dropping players does still run the risk of players losing interest with the game -- even if not to the same degree of searches timing out.

Although crouching removes the need for Stabilization Jets.
Incorrect, with regards to the crouch mechanic reducing the recoil effect of the H5BR.

Pre-tune this was true for the H5BR, but post-tune crouching (sadly) no longer has any influential impact on the recoil. I wish they had kept that particular gun-play depth.
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