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[Locked] BTB Refresh - The BR

OP Envore

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343 Industries, I know there was internal testing for the stabilization jets BR and I'm going to ask that you guys reconsider giving the stabilization jets BR a chance in BTB over the god forsaken current BR.

The stabilization jets BR is not an overpowered weapon and is NOT A LASER. I don't know who you guys had in the lobby neither do I know if they're skilled or not but I'm telling you guys that the choice you guys are making is 100% wrong.

There's no reason to debate about this. Let's go back to the roots of the problem of BTB, "The BR."

The reason why BTB turned awful was the complete nerf of the BR. Yes, I know the pre-patched BR needed to be nerf but this nerf was so horrible. The BR needed to be reduced in RRR (Red Reticle Range). That is all it needed.

Now I've heard about how players won't pickup other weapons if the players had the stabilization jets BR. I'm telling you right now...I DON'T BUY IT...you guys are overlooking the other precision weapons, Carbine/DMR/Light Rifle/Pistol. Yes, I said the pistol because it is better than the stabilization jets BR at long range. All those other precision weapons are so effective at long range shooting people out of vehicles and decimating people in a matter of a few shots that the current BR is completely laughable. Those weapons are YOUR LASERS. The stabilization jets BR at least gives off a fighting chance though, it isn't as effective as the other weapons long range.

You guys want people to play your games more right? You guys want to encourage players to come back?

How are you going to do that when the BR is so -Yoink- that it discourages players to not use it??? Players may like the scenery, terrain, and the fairness of maps but what's the whole point of it when players don't enjoy what they start off with when they play on those good maps? How is a player suppose to enjoy every aspect of the game if there's a problem with the starting weapon?

Now for those thinking, this player doesn't like the BR and most likely won't play BTB unless the BR is change it won't change the pop if one player leaves. That maybe true, but this one player speaks for most of the players that are also passionate about playing H5 BTB. It is a DOMINO EFFECT, it only takes one player to leave to encourage other players to also leave but at the same exact time, it takes one person to come back and play to encourage other players to come back and play when theirs a change to a game that players actually like.

We play inside your guys BTB Map testing lobbies and give you guys the proper feedback to ensure good maps for Refresh but how do you think it's encouraging to us players (consumers) to try to enjoy all aspects of BTB and encourage players to come back to play when the BR is inferior to all the other weapons? We (The Community) can show you guys that the stabilization jets BR is not an OP weapon as you guys make it out to be.

Please consider the stabilization jets BR again, it seriously would make 100's of players come back and play.
Couldn't agree more!

Everyone I know that plays Halo 5, especially BTB, is severely disappointed by how the BR performs. Like you said, it's basically a snowball once one team gets a carbine, light rifle, pistol, etc. The default BR just doesn't function and has no place in the current BTB meta.

Please make it happen!
Absolutely agree with you, the current BR severely underperforms in BTB. The Stabilization BR is the way to go.
The useless BR is one of maybe 2 or 3 reasons why I stopped playing H5. Stabilized BR was going to bring me back for the BTB refresh, but I’m definitely not going to bother playing if it’s not the one used by default.
Agreed, the BR is useless right now and the Magnum is too OP...
Give me stabilization or give me FFA Hardcore Super Fiesta Crazy King Ranked.
I AGREED 100% can't believe the Pistol is OP than the BR.
This BR is total useless!!!
I want STABILIZING BR guys please open your damn eyes and stop making HALO 5 EVEN WORST.
Still can't believe you guys made a "Hardcore Super Fiesta RANKED" take that off and put something BETTER!!!!
The current BR seems fine to me considering everyone starts with them. In Arena, yes it is a useless pickup.

The people who were getting a ton of kills before the weapon tuning are still on top of the lobbies now. Nobody suddenly became a god when the weapon tuning came out which means the player who had better aim is still winning.

There are also some people out there who still think the BR has random spread horizontally. I am fairly sure that is incorrect; the first shot will be exactly where your crosshair is while the next two will bounce up following your crosshair motion but the shots will never land somewhere outside of the crosshair.

The randomness was present in the original weapon tuning when they tried BR starts in Team Arena but IIRC they scaled back some of those changes which included the RNG element.
Stabilization BR start is the way to go. I hope Halo Infinite’s BR is more in line with Halo 2&3.

The current Halo 5 BR is more frustrating to use than it is fun and that’s not good for game longevity.
The current BR seems fine to me considering everyone starts with them. In Arena, yes it is a useless pickup.

The people who were getting a ton of kills before the weapon tuning are still on top of the lobbies now. Nobody suddenly became a god when the weapon tuning came out which means the player who had better aim is still winning.

There are also some people out there who still think the BR has random spread horizontally. I am fairly sure that is incorrect; the first shot will be exactly where your crosshair is while the next two will bounce up following your crosshair motion but the shots will never land somewhere outside of the crosshair.

The randomness was present in the original weapon tuning when they tried BR starts in Team Arena but IIRC they scaled back some of those changes which included the RNG element.
Two things that I would like to say about your post:

- First, I want you to think about the variables that was going on before the weapon tuning happen. The pre-patched BR was overpowering and players were freely able to play against anyone in BTB before that phase and some of the players that were on "Top" farmed/pubstomp players and made them quit out of games. It's not hard to be on "Top" when someone is doing that to players that were horrible at the game; you often matched against When there were players at their skill level, yes, it truly came down to who had the better shot because the pre-patched BR was so superior over the other precision weapons that there was no need to pick them up but after the tuning phase the BR was so inferior that it was pointless to have. After that tuning phase happen, it was about picking up a better weapon than the current BR we have now. Now I know that 343 wants the BR to be intended for short to medium range fights because they don't want another pre-patched BR which is fine but it doesn't make any sense to put vertical recoil on a gun when its red reticle range needed to be reduced. The vertical recoil on the BR makes it sometimes hard to fight somebody at medium distance and trying to zoom in makes it even worse. There's no way that you can tell me that you haven't notice not once how overpowering the carbine is playing on Deadlock when you have a BR trying to fight it. How can you compete against THAT?? A player less skilled than the person with the BR and still shred him. It doesn't even come close at long range and medium range. The other precision weapons are like that as well except for the Light Rifle and pistol. They beat this current BR in every category.

- Second, I'm pretty sure no one has complained about horizontal spread on the BR. If they have, then they're most likely thinking of the vertical spread and not horizontal. When it comes down to aiming, we (The Community) should be rewarded for aiming and hitting all our shots against players at or better skill level that we're playing against and the current BR does not give that to us since we have to aim at certain parts of the body to ensure a three shot and players are definitely not rewarded since our screen shakes, other weapons are so superior to the current BR, and the fact that there vertical spread. It is a struggle to hit every shot against the LR/DMR/Carbine/Pistol.

I can definitely show you that this BR is useless if you gave me the opportunity to.
Envore wrote:
The current BR seems fine to me considering everyone starts with them. In Arena, yes it is a useless pickup.

The people who were getting a ton of kills before the weapon tuning are still on top of the lobbies now. Nobody suddenly became a god when the weapon tuning came out which means the player who had better aim is still winning.

There are also some people out there who still think the BR has random spread horizontally. I am fairly sure that is incorrect; the first shot will be exactly where your crosshair is while the next two will bounce up following your crosshair motion but the shots will never land somewhere outside of the crosshair.

The randomness was present in the original weapon tuning when they tried BR starts in Team Arena but IIRC they scaled back some of those changes which included the RNG element.
Two things that I would like to say about your post:

- First, I want you to think about the variables that was going on before the weapon tuning happen. The pre-patched BR was overpowering and players were freely able to play against anyone in BTB before that phase and some of the players that were on "Top" farmed/pubstomp players and made them quit out of games. It's not hard to be on "Top" when someone is doing that to players that were horrible at the game; you often matched against When there were players at their skill level, yes, it truly came down to who had the better shot because the pre-patched BR was so superior over the other precision weapons that there was no need to pick them up but after the tuning phase the BR was so inferior that it was pointless to have. After that tuning phase happen, it was about picking up a better weapon than the current BR we have now. Now I know that 343 wants the BR to be intended for short to medium range fights because they don't want another pre-patched BR which is fine but it doesn't make any sense to put vertical recoil on a gun when its red reticle range needed to be reduced. The vertical recoil on the BR makes it sometimes hard to fight somebody at medium distance and trying to zoom in makes it even worse. There's no way that you can tell me that you haven't notice not once how overpowering the carbine is playing on Deadlock when you have a BR trying to fight it. How can you compete against THAT?? A player less skilled than the person with the BR and still shred him. It doesn't even come close at long range and medium range. The other precision weapons are like that as well except for the Light Rifle and pistol. They beat this current BR in every category.

- Second, I'm pretty sure no one has complained about horizontal spread on the BR. If they have, then they're most likely thinking of the vertical spread and not horizontal. When it comes down to aiming, we (The Community) should be rewarded for aiming and hitting all our shots against players at or better skill level that we're playing against and the current BR does not give that to us since we have to aim at certain parts of the body to ensure a three shot and players are definitely not rewarded since our screen shakes, other weapons are so superior to the current BR, and the fact that there vertical spread.
To be fair, the Carbine meta on Deadlock still existed pre-tune (the Carbine's rate of fire and RRR range was nerfed as well).

As for your second point, how does the fact that "we have to aim at certain parts of the body to ensure a three shot" not reflect good aim? If you are still aiming for the head (besides the last headshot) when you know your burst is going up I'm sorry but you aren't hitting your shots. Good aim is landing a high percentage of shots, not aiming at their head and getting 33%

I will expand on that previous statement that if a player has a high hit percentage but goes negative often then their aim is not quite refined (unable to snap to head when necessary)
When the the BR first came, that was the reason I quit playing BTB. Using the BR after that was extremely disappointing
Envore wrote:
The current BR seems fine to me considering everyone starts with them. In Arena, yes it is a useless pickup.

The people who were getting a ton of kills before the weapon tuning are still on top of the lobbies now. Nobody suddenly became a god when the weapon tuning came out which means the player who had better aim is still winning.

There are also some people out there who still think the BR has random spread horizontally. I am fairly sure that is incorrect; the first shot will be exactly where your crosshair is while the next two will bounce up following your crosshair motion but the shots will never land somewhere outside of the crosshair.

The randomness was present in the original weapon tuning when they tried BR starts in Team Arena but IIRC they scaled back some of those changes which included the RNG element.
Two things that I would like to say about your post:

- First, I want you to think about the variables that was going on before the weapon tuning happen. The pre-patched BR was overpowering and players were freely able to play against anyone in BTB before that phase and some of the players that were on "Top" farmed/pubstomp players and made them quit out of games. It's not hard to be on "Top" when someone is doing that to players that were horrible at the game; you often matched against When there were players at their skill level, yes, it truly came down to who had the better shot because the pre-patched BR was so superior over the other precision weapons that there was no need to pick them up but after the tuning phase the BR was so inferior that it was pointless to have. After that tuning phase happen, it was about picking up a better weapon than the current BR we have now. Now I know that 343 wants the BR to be intended for short to medium range fights because they don't want another pre-patched BR which is fine but it doesn't make any sense to put vertical recoil on a gun when its red reticle range needed to be reduced. The vertical recoil on the BR makes it sometimes hard to fight somebody at medium distance and trying to zoom in makes it even worse. There's no way that you can tell me that you haven't notice not once how overpowering the carbine is playing on Deadlock when you have a BR trying to fight it. How can you compete against THAT?? A player less skilled than the person with the BR and still shred him. It doesn't even come close at long range and medium range. The other precision weapons are like that as well except for the Light Rifle and pistol. They beat this current BR in every category.

- Second, I'm pretty sure no one has complained about horizontal spread on the BR. If they have, then they're most likely thinking of the vertical spread and not horizontal. When it comes down to aiming, we (The Community) should be rewarded for aiming and hitting all our shots against players at or better skill level that we're playing against and the current BR does not give that to us since we have to aim at certain parts of the body to ensure a three shot and players are definitely not rewarded since our screen shakes, other weapons are so superior to the current BR, and the fact that there vertical spread.
To be fair, the Carbine meta on Deadlock still existed pre-tune (the Carbine's rate of fire and RRR range was nerfed as well).

As for your second point, how does the fact that "we have to aim at certain parts of the body to ensure a three shot" not reflect good aim? If you are still aiming for the head (besides the last headshot) when you know your burst is going up I'm sorry but you aren't hitting your shots. Good aim is landing a high percentage of shots, not aiming at their head and getting 33%

I will expand on that previous statement that if you have a high hit percentage but go negative often then your aim is not quite refined (unable to snap to head when necessary)
I probably worded it weird but just to make sure that we're on the same page, the thing that makes the BR useless is its aiming versus distance. The longer you get in distance, the more you have to adjust your aimer to ensure you hit your three shots and make the last shot hit the face. Please take in consideration the amount of movement a player does, player using their thrusting ability, and how good a person can shoot with the other precision weapons that really doesn't have much adjusting on aiming compared to the BR now. This makes it more annoying then enjoyable, especially if you are playing against teams at similar skill levels. Why do I need to adjust my aimer at every second of the fight instead of just being able to constantly shoot at the opponents face and hit every shot? This ruins one of the aspects of the BR and causes weapons that have very little recoil to be more superior than the current BR. A BR that is strictly meant for short to medium range engagement is being nerf too much to not be able to combat those other precision weapons. The pros have high percentage shots when they play against each other yet you don't ever see them pick up the BR and I wonder why. It's pretty obvious at this point that the BR sucks; you can't tell me that they can't properly use it because they are and it's not effective against the Light Rifle, Pistol, Carbine or the DMR.

Regardless of the carbine being nerf, it is still far more superior than the current BR because of its RRR and being able to fire single rounds without a shaking screen.
Envore wrote:
Envore wrote:
The current BR seems fine to me considering everyone starts with them. In Arena, yes it is a useless pickup.

The people who were getting a ton of kills before the weapon tuning are still on top of the lobbies now. Nobody suddenly became a god when the weapon tuning came out which means the player who had better aim is still winning.

There are also some people out there who still think the BR has random spread horizontally. I am fairly sure that is incorrect; the first shot will be exactly where your crosshair is while the next two will bounce up following your crosshair motion but the shots will never land somewhere outside of the crosshair.

The randomness was present in the original weapon tuning when they tried BR starts in Team Arena but IIRC they scaled back some of those changes which included the RNG element.
Two things that I would like to say about your post:

- First, I want you to think about the variables that was going on before the weapon tuning happen. The pre-patched BR was overpowering and players were freely able to play against anyone in BTB before that phase and some of the players that were on "Top" farmed/pubstomp players and made them quit out of games. It's not hard to be on "Top" when someone is doing that to players that were horrible at the game; you often matched against When there were players at their skill level, yes, it truly came down to who had the better shot because the pre-patched BR was so superior over the other precision weapons that there was no need to pick them up but after the tuning phase the BR was so inferior that it was pointless to have. After that tuning phase happen, it was about picking up a better weapon than the current BR we have now. Now I know that 343 wants the BR to be intended for short to medium range fights because they don't want another pre-patched BR which is fine but it doesn't make any sense to put vertical recoil on a gun when its red reticle range needed to be reduced. The vertical recoil on the BR makes it sometimes hard to fight somebody at medium distance and trying to zoom in makes it even worse. There's no way that you can tell me that you haven't notice not once how overpowering the carbine is playing on Deadlock when you have a BR trying to fight it. How can you compete against THAT?? A player less skilled than the person with the BR and still shred him. It doesn't even come close at long range and medium range. The other precision weapons are like that as well except for the Light Rifle and pistol. They beat this current BR in every category.

- Second, I'm pretty sure no one has complained about horizontal spread on the BR. If they have, then they're most likely thinking of the vertical spread and not horizontal. When it comes down to aiming, we (The Community) should be rewarded for aiming and hitting all our shots against players at or better skill level that we're playing against and the current BR does not give that to us since we have to aim at certain parts of the body to ensure a three shot and players are definitely not rewarded since our screen shakes, other weapons are so superior to the current BR, and the fact that there vertical spread.
To be fair, the Carbine meta on Deadlock still existed pre-tune (the Carbine's rate of fire and RRR range was nerfed as well).

As for your second point, how does the fact that "we have to aim at certain parts of the body to ensure a three shot" not reflect good aim? If you are still aiming for the head (besides the last headshot) when you know your burst is going up I'm sorry but you aren't hitting your shots. Good aim is landing a high percentage of shots, not aiming at their head and getting 33%

I will expand on that previous statement that if you have a high hit percentage but go negative often then your aim is not quite refined (unable to snap to head when necessary)
I probably worded it weird but just to make sure that we're on the same page, the thing that makes the BR useless is its aiming versus distance. The longer you get in distance, the more you have to adjust your aimer to ensure you hit your three shots and make the last shot hit the face. Please take in consideration the amount of movement a player does, player using their thrusting ability, and how good a person can shoot with the other precision weapons that really doesn't have much adjusting on aiming compared to the BR now. This makes it more annoying then enjoyable, especially if you are playing against teams at similar skill levels. Why do I need to adjust my aimer at every second of the fight instead of just being able to constantly shoot at the opponents face and hit every shot? This ruins one of the aspects of the BR and causes weapons that have very little recoil to be more superior than the current BR. A BR that is strictly meant for short to medium range engagement is being nerf too much to not be able to combat those other precision weapons. The pros have high percentage shots when they play against each other yet you don't ever see them pick up the BR and I wonder why. It's pretty obvious at this point that the BR sucks; you can't tell me that they can't properly use it because they are and it's not effective against the Light Rifle, Pistol, Carbine or the DMR.

Regardless of the carbine being nerf, it is still far more superior than the current BR because of its RRR and being able to fire single rounds without a shaking screen.
It is true the recoil's main feature was to reduce the effective range of the BR in order to highlight the other weapons' utility in the sandbox. I think one other positive that came from a less effective ranged weapon in BTB is that players' movement is less restricted moving from cover to cover. This is more important in BTB than Arena because often this distance is farther due to the larger size of the maps.

I am pretty sure these two points were partially behind 343's decision to tune the weapons. A few carbines on the map is much different than everyone spawning with a carbine and IMO helps the flow of the match.

BTB is also built around pickups (vehicles, for example) and their respective counters, so why can't the carbine guy on your team take out the enemy carbine?

If you can show 343 that these points are not valid then they would consider it, but you can't just say the BR sucks and to change it back because the weapon tuning had much bigger consequences than the weapons themselves.
This is not about a carbine being able to take out a carbine. This is about a BR being able to compete against other weapons and it's not solving the problem. The stabilization jets BR can still give those two same features that you just said. You're not going to always have a carbine in your back pocket and you're not going to always have a buddy that has a carbine to kill the enemy's carbine. That remark about a buddy having a carbine has no correlation with the problem that we are currently having with the BR. I understand that BTB is based around pickups. The stabilization jets BR gives players more of a chance against other precision weapons but doesn't overpower them. I can show you that it doesn't do that.
I thought this discussion about BTB getting an updated WZ-style BR happened a few months ago. I guess we're still waiting for the BTB refresh to occur where we get these updated BRs.
Envore wrote:
This is not about a carbine being able to take out a carbine. This is about a BR being able to compete against other weapons and it's not solving the problem. The stabilization jets BR can still give those two same features that you just said. You're not going to always have a carbine in your back pocket and you're not going to always have a buddy that has a carbine to kill the enemy's carbine. That remark about a buddy having a carbine has no correlation with the problem that we are currently having with the BR. I understand that BTB is based around pickups. The stabilization jets BR gives players more of a chance against other precision weapons but doesn't overpower them. I can show you that it doesn't do that.
The BR isn't supposed to compete with the carbine. Carbine is clearly meant for longer range engagements and if you challenge that with a BR you're going to lose. 343 intentionally made it that way. Get a teammate to help descope the carbine. Teams teamshot vehicles, why can't a couple people focus on the carbine? Sure it is a nuisance but so are ghosts and wasps for a 1v1 with a BR...
Thanks
Envore wrote:
This is not about a carbine being able to take out a carbine. This is about a BR being able to compete against other weapons and it's not solving the problem. The stabilization jets BR can still give those two same features that you just said. You're not going to always have a carbine in your back pocket and you're not going to always have a buddy that has a carbine to kill the enemy's carbine. That remark about a buddy having a carbine has no correlation with the problem that we are currently having with the BR. I understand that BTB is based around pickups. The stabilization jets BR gives players more of a chance against other precision weapons but doesn't overpower them. I can show you that it doesn't do that.
The BR isn't supposed to compete with the carbine. Carbine is clearly meant for longer range engagements and if you challenge that with a BR you're going to lose. 343 intentionally made it that way. Get a teammate to help descope the carbine. Teams teamshot vehicles, why can't a couple people focus on the carbine? Sure it is a nuisance but so are ghosts and wasps for a 1v1 with a BR...
@hidden klmm can you add Envore on Xbox because he ran out of post he can make on this. He would like to show you what exactly he's talking about if you have some time. Thanks
Envore wrote:
This is not about a carbine being able to take out a carbine. This is about a BR being able to compete against other weapons and it's not solving the problem. The stabilization jets BR can still give those two same features that you just said. You're not going to always have a carbine in your back pocket and you're not going to always have a buddy that has a carbine to kill the enemy's carbine. That remark about a buddy having a carbine has no correlation with the problem that we are currently having with the BR. I understand that BTB is based around pickups. The stabilization jets BR gives players more of a chance against other precision weapons but doesn't overpower them. I can show you that it doesn't do that.
The BR isn't supposed to compete with the carbine. Carbine is clearly meant for longer range engagements and if you challenge that with a BR you're going to lose. 343 intentionally made it that way. Get a teammate to help descope the carbine. Teams teamshot vehicles, why can't a couple people focus on the carbine? Sure it is a nuisance but so are ghosts and wasps for a 1v1 with a BR...
@hidden klmm can you add Envore on Xbox because he ran out of post he can make on this. He would like to show you what exactly he's talking about if you have some time. Thanks
I actually don't care that much, I am merely trying to vet his argument so he can propose something to 343 that they might consider.

343 decided to tune the weapons so each has an intended role in the sandbox and Envore's argument is to take away some of that distinction. 343 will ask, "why?" and the argument that the BR sucks at range will not fly.

The only reason I responded was because he made it sound like everybody wanted what he wants which may not be the case.

If they do decide to reverse the tuned BR, it would be in 343's interest to revert the changes to the Carbine and DMR as well in order to retain the independence of weapon roles.
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