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Coliseum - Summer Preview Feedback

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RyInfinity wrote:
Bring the BR back!
RyInfinity wrote:
McValuFry wrote:
RyInfinity wrote:
  • BR Removal: Amazing
What?? I don't understand this response. I think I visit the Halo forums about once every 3 years and the only reason I logged back on today was to say:

PUT THE BR BACK!!!

Is there really a ton of people that hate the BR as much as Aboveinfinity? I'm kind of mind blown that people would hate the BR
I can explain this because there seems to be a major misconception and circle jerk developing regarding BRs on Arena maps so let me elaborate.

The Utility Weapon (Magnum) is supposed to be the definitive go-to weapon in an Arena shooter, a player should always be able to trust that they can competently engage other players using their utility and not be at a significant disadvantage. In the Vanilla Halo 5 maps, there were A LOT of Tier 1 Weapons (SMGs, DMRs, Light Rifles, BRs, Storm Rifles, etc.) and because of this, the utility weapon was rarely used.

By picking up a BR on a map, you automatically received a very powerful upgrade that puts you at an advantage against people who are spawning and trying to fight with their Magnum. This created a lot of lopsided gunfights (BR vs. Magnum, SMG vs. Magnum, Storm Rifle vs. Magnum). The utility rarely could stand a chance. By cutting down on the amount of Tier 1 Weapons (removing BRs in some cases), it promotes the utility weapon which is a more skill oriented weapon and leaves people on a more level playing field.

Now that isn't to say that the BR should just be removed entirely, that isn't what we want. Weapons like the DMR and BR do serve a purpose in the sandbox, and that is to provide a boost to range and/or a slight boost to damage. For example, Snipedown from Evil Geniuses is an 'anchor' or a 'sniper' style of Slayer, he has great positioning and therefore often uses weapons like the DMR to help his teammates out at range. But on Coliseum, the BRs don't support this role, they are simply clutter that cause randomness and inconsistency in gunfights.

An example of a perfect placement of the BR is P2, where you can use it to go P3 and get a slight boost to range and damage by using the weapon. It's a small upgrade for earning control of the Pink Tower. BRs still exist on Tyrant, Plaza, Rig, Truth, Eden, and more. It isn't like they are outlawing them entirely.

They simply are cutting down on the clutter that existed in certain maps and promoting use of the Pistol and other niche weapons.

Hope this makes sense!
You seem to be the fellow with the misconception my friend. We totally understand that the pistol is your default weapon. What we are saying is that we basically dont want to be forced to use it just because its your default weapon.

If you dont want to be at a disadvantage with the pistol, then find a different weapon. The whole point of this is to have options. Thats like saying "the sniper puts the pistol at a disadvantage, take it out." If you dont want to be at a disadvantage from a BR, THEN PICK UP A BR!

I know I dont speak for everybody, but I for one do not want to be forced to use the pistol just so I can get precision headshots. You act like a BR is a power weapon but its not. Its just a solid precision weapon.

You say the BR just adds clutter, I say the boltshot they replaced it with adds clutter and doesnt go with the flow of the map. This is arena. Arena/ranked playlists always has been and should continue to be about precision weapons such as the LR, the Carbine, the BR, and the DMR.

If you dont want to go up against these weapons then you probably belong in social slayer. Arena is the only form of a "BR/DMR Start" that we have. If you are going to ruin Arena by removing the weapons that serious/competitive players consider to be the bread and butter of halo, then at least give us our own playlist with BR or DMR starts.
I'm not going to get into an essay based debate because it seems that I couldn't convince you so I'll boil it down to basics and then be on my way.

  1. It isn't as simple as "just go pick up a BR". At the highest level of skill, Halo 5 is an extremely fast paced game that demands players to be constantly applying pressure and moving with their teammates. If you get a Red Elbow spawn and your teammates are ready to move in for a Flag/Bomb push, you can't say "wait guys let me go pick up my BR so I can actually stand a chance against other enemies". The game requires players to constantly put damage on opponents and be able to win gunfights at all times. At the lower level of play, I agree, it is quite simple to just pick up your weapon of choice but the game needs to be refined to a tee at the highest echelon of skill before it can observed at a lower level.
  2. The misconception with the Boltshot is the illusion that "the gun is easy because it aims for you". The Boltshot is a precision weapon just like any other, the only nuance is that it doesn't require headshots. As a tradeoff for this bonus, it utilizes extremely slow moving projectiles that can bump into geometry or miss players entirely if they thrust or dodge them. The Boltshot is not a "noob" weapon, it requires a different level of thinking than other weapons and the tracking projectiles confuse people into believing it is extremely user-friendly. Plus, they aren't even that strong so they don't detract from the importance of Utility Weapon gunfights that I stressed in my post.
  3. You're looking at the sandbox in a very linear way. I too believe that the sandbox is very balanced and that all of the rifles and automatics serve very satisfying roles, but that doesn't mean that they should all be shoved on every map. Map layouts and sandbox balance go hand in hand and the selection and placement of weapon locations must be carefully chosen.
  4. And finally, when you are referring to Arena being for competitive hardcore Halo action, I'm well aware of that. I've reached low-mid level Onyx ranks each season and enjoy the game a lot as it is, but I've always felt that changes needed to be made regarding the frequency of weapons on Arena maps, and it appears the dev team agreed with those concepts.
Mate you just arent understanding. As ive already stated, the br is not a super weapon. The pistol and even assault rifle goes up against it fine. And the point about how you cant go get a br everytime you spawn, that point remains valid for every weapon.

But if you think the br is the only way to beat a br and dont want to spawn and go up against it, then maybe try being the person who makes the OTHER guy have to spawn, mate. The BR is what alot of players consider to be the bread and butter of halo, it goes well on every map.

Now lets get to your logic about the boltshot or imo, your lack therof. You seem to think ppl are saying the boltshit is a noon weapon based on pure speculation. No mate, when I say its a noob weapon its becausr I have picked it up and used it. It does not take skill to use. Yeah players can thrust away from it, but they can thrust away from pretty much every non power weapon. That doesnt mean it takes skill to use.

Cheerio, lad
Put everything back there was nothing wrong. Why do you(343) hate BR's so much?
i always felt unconfident with the dmr on this map as there is only really a couple spots to use it effectively. i think this map would flow nicely with the recon style dmr shown in. Stasis. but removing the br is a bad idea as we need a decent weapon that can descope snipers and counter rockets anywhere on the map. the carbine is amaing in halo 5 but a sitting duck when faced with a sniper. i think the boltshot would have been a great replacement for the suppresser instead of br.
MRunning42 wrote:
Put everything back there was nothing wrong. Why do you(343) hate BR's so much?
We don't hate BRs. The Battle Rifle is great! But should it be placed on every map? A lot of people love the DMR as well. Should both of those weapons be placed on every map because people like playing with them?

We're trying to find a balance between people's preferred play style and variety of weapons/roles across the maps.
I love the swap between sniper and rockets. All the fight (most of them) are in the catwalk area. Now we will be force to open the map to fight for the sniper as well. Can't wait to see esport with that kind of changes.
I don't love the carbine for this map. I'm ambivalent about the rest of the changes- I miss picking up easy SMGs but I get why it should be in a slightly farther position. I get the BR removal to focus on pistol game and make the DMR a real threat for holding down window/elbows, but the carbine kind of undermines that IMO.

Edit: After posting in the empire thread about how the BR is better suited to empire than the dmr, I feel like it should be noted here that I think the DMR should be showcased more on coliseum. Everybody loves BRs, and it's jarring to have them moved on so many maps, but if it stays permanent on any maps it should be this one considering the sightlines and the presence of the sniper rifle.
I love the swap between rockets and sniper I feel yellow tower recieves more traffic.
I don't really mind the Rockets and Sniper switch. Kinda digging it actually. Only complaint I have is I don't really know why you took the BRs out of this map? All the other changes seem cool but this was an excellent map for the BR. In Slayer it doesn't hurt as much but in CTF it helped a lot having an extra long range weapon to stop the flag run. Just My opinion tho. Bring those back in and I like the changes
Fidace wrote:
Great changes so far. Only a few games in, but very positive feeling.

I love BRs, but can see the logic in removing them on this map.

Those in the pro-br camp might want to layout an argument for them being on the map that doesn't involve "because I like them," or "because it's a classic weapon."
Because we like them is plenty good enough. Coliseum has tons of medium to long range sight lines. The BR is perfectly suited to handle most of them, and it can still be effective at close range. If anything Coliseum needs more ranged weapons not less.

Whoever decided that having a boltshot was favorable to having a BR needs to quit smoking crack.
Deez wrote:
MRunning42 wrote:
Put everything back there was nothing wrong. Why do you(343) hate BR's so much?
We don't hate BRs. The Battle Rifle is great! But should it be placed on every map? A lot of people love the DMR as well. Should both of those weapons be placed on every map because people like playing with them?

We're trying to find a balance between people's preferred play style and variety of weapons/roles across the maps.
i definitely understand where you're coming from with that question. its an interesting one. but i think there are probably two weapons that need to at least make an appearance on every map just because they are so essentially halo: plasma pistol and BR. And not because i love using the plasma pistol (i really don't... i may have one EMP badge maybe?). but because those weapons just go hand in hand with Halo. kinda like the AR and the pistol.
Move the sniper back to it's old spot and rockets back to their old spot. I think getting rid of the BR was good enough.
Move the sniper back to it's old spot and rockets back to their old spot. I think getting rid of the BR was good enough.
Deez wrote:
Just read through the feedback here. Good stuff everyone. This is exactly why we're doing this. Engaging you guys on changes, getting feedback, and moving the game forward is what this is all about. So thank you.

PS - You really love your BRs.
I really love the BR55. More Arena appearances would be epic!
Yep, colosseum is now worse for the br removal.
You are now even more at the mercy of a player with a dmr or sniper.
I do like the rocket/sniper swap though.
Not a big fan of SMG move from oven/fridge on Coliseum, as ur left exposed if u make a run for the SMG from spawning either at red or blue base, the Sniper and Rockets is a better change, makes the sniper more of the key focus of the map, less fighting for the rockets, more for snipers. BR removal good, as BR was annoying cause u would get picked so easily keeps gameplay down and dirty, CQB style.
Biostasis2 wrote:
Fidace wrote:
Great changes so far. Only a few games in, but very positive feeling.

I love BRs, but can see the logic in removing them on this map.

Those in the pro-br camp might want to layout an argument for them being on the map that doesn't involve "because I like them," or "because it's a classic weapon."
I'm a br proponent. I could argue that having the br on colosseum increases diversity of distance engagements. I could argue that specifically on colosseum, which have a high proportion of long range battles, the br fills a perfect niche between the pistol and the dmr. But I'm not going to.

I think the burden is on the br opponents here.
Why does changing the br spawns benefit game play?
More specifically, why does changing br spawns into bolt shots benefit anybody?
How do the br spawns negatively effect the game, pre change?
Also, what is the logic you see in removing them to begin with? Are they a nuisance, an unnecessary placement on the map or do you just want to have more pistol battles by removing one set of long range weapons?
Now that's an argument. Thank you. Seriously.

As far as BRs go, I think the map had a tendancy to allow a LOT of control to good teams. And the BRs, given DMR spawn and assuming a sniper has a safe spot, allowed for one team to really trap the other in a base. Once that happens, it's team shoot ahoy with BRs and DMRs. In combo with where Rockets did spawn it was death trying to swing things back around. The place where the BRs spawned was a particular issue, I thought, as once a team had control, trying to get to them is death. (So yes, I could be talked into them being moved, not removed.)

I find Boltshots a fairly neutral weapon. I really don't think they can ruin or necessarily improve/fix a map. They're just a nice enough weapon for a change of pace. If you have the drop on someone, then they're effective at mid range, if it's toe to toe and first shot is equal, it's almost certainly going to be a 1 for 1 or death. This, to me, makes them a good fit for where they are, I quite like nabbing them on this map and crouching on the high platform when Rocks are about to spawn, there's plenty of counters to that, but it's a good tactic and seems a worthwhile use of the gun.

The map always felt to me like a DMR was gonna be OP, tbh, but it's never felt that way. (When I first played the map I thought that a change would come where there'd be a BR at DMR spawn, but I don't know I've ever felt it would help since playing the map more and more.)

This is a map that I think suits Pistol battles. The overall trend of diversity, less autos and less midrange in this update is a positive, IMO.
I don't mind the power-weapon swap, although it does make call-outs confusing. Cover for the old rocket spawn seems like a possible good call, as the maps was all catwalk centered before. That said, I thought vanilla Coliseum was the strongest map of the game (and one of the best of the franchise), so I don't think it needed too much tinkering inherently.
Every change is great except
-Removal of BR

BR is a very classic weapon a lot of Pros use and it is great for mid-open maps like coliseum, BR should be left there. Position change might be decent though.
I agree. BR moved to very bottom mid would be a great idea. One BR that spawns say every 30 seconds or a minute is great. If someone wants to risk running out in the middle for a BR, then it's up to them and makes it much more challenging. Most likely get lit up. DMR at each base provides enough opportunity for a mid range weapon. Carbine at yellow is weird...put either carbine or a BR bottom mid. Otherwise, I like the layout and think it plays well.
Not a fan of the complete removal of BR. If anything they should've been moved somewhere else.
Good Changes overall. Unlike other i actually enjoy the BR removal, but could also be talked into having it moved or having a single BR on the map.
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