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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – April 10

OP ZaedynFel

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VETOED wrote:
Having said that, I still REALLY would like to see FFA 2nd and 3rd places count as wins on the service record. It's the small things that motivate people to remain invested in that hopper for much longer. No one likes just racking up losses, even more so newcomers who might just be learning to get familiar with it. Even HCS tournaments reward top 3, and so do most FFA tournaments with a reasonable prize pool. No real reason for Matchmaking not to do the same.
Can we get this for future seasons, Josh? The top spots also counted as a win in previous Halo games as well.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
VETOED wrote:
Having said that, I still REALLY would like to see FFA 2nd and 3rd places count as wins on the service record. It's the small things that motivate people to remain invested in that hopper for much longer. No one likes just racking up losses, even more so newcomers who might just be learning to get familiar with it. Even HCS tournaments reward top 3, and so do most FFA tournaments with a reasonable prize pool. No real reason for Matchmaking not to do the same.
Can we get this for future seasons, Josh? The top spots also counted as a win in previous Halo games as well.
Second this. My win percentage is trash thanks to my FFA addiction
Thanks for keeping us all updated! Again, I appreciate the effort you and your compadres are going to to keep the community happy!
Hey can you please have a look at this bug? If you set your preference to Expanded, search and play a game, when it researches it actually switches to Balanced. The host can't see this however, they still see it saying Expanded, your party members will see Balanced. This is definitely a real problem because we can't find Balanced games AT ALL in Australia, so it makes us go back to the menu and research after every single match. It's super annoying and me and my friends are frankly really frustrated this still hasn't been even acknowledged.
CSR Gains are kinda screwy with the MM now, just played Strongholds on Mercy in PG even tho I was the one getting caps because there was a Champ n Onyx on my team I got jack for CSR, so basically that win was for nothing cos of how we now get CSR but if I hadnt made caps I would of lost CSR.

Seriously Ranked Arena seems broke AF right now. Matchmaking parameters need tightening now because if you randomly get placed with Champs/Onyx you will literally get no CSR for winning at Plat/Diamond level when play against other players your level, all because you randomly got Champs on your team. I get the CSR inflation was a issue that needed resolving but now its created other issues. Its like a repeat of Destiny right now, solve one problem and 5 more appear.... come on guy don't repeat the mistakes of others.
Josh, is there a way to prevent a match from starting due to people getting disconnected from the servers right of the start?

Yesterday i was playing team arena (strongholds) and im pretty sure before the match started i saw 8 emblems which obviously means 8 players total, however, once the match began we only had 2 people on our team. instead of seeing your team of 4 i only saw 2. the other 2 must have been either disconnected from the servers or unplugged their ethernet cable. my main concern is that this is an unfair event as we obviously couldn't win against 4 on strongholds. and its not the first time this happens so i told my teammate i was leaving the match, i prefer a heavy CSR loss rather that getting killed and teabagged.

here is the match for reference, as you can see we only had 2 people and we cant even see the 2 other guys who got disconnected or left intentionally.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/aa9261b0-c847-463d-835e-c93665f196d9/players/peterak91?gameHistoryMatchIndex=3&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena
CSR Gains are kinda screwy with the MM now, just played Strongholds on Mercy in PG even tho I was the one getting caps because there was a Champ n Onyx on my team I got jack for CSR, so basically that win was for nothing cos of how we now get CSR but if I hadnt made caps I would of lost CSR.

Seriously Ranked Arena seems broke AF right now. Matchmaking parameters need tightening now because if you randomly get placed with Champs/Onyx you will literally get no CSR for winning at Plat/Diamond level when play against other players your level, all because you randomly got Champs on your team. I get the CSR inflation was a issue that needed resolving but now its created other issues. Its like a repeat of Destiny right now, solve one problem and 5 more appear.... come on guy don't repeat the mistakes of others.
This has nothing to do with the recent fix, it's always been this way. If you have players with much higher MMR on the team than you do, the system assumes they did the work. This is true of almost all Ranking / Skill systems out there today. All else being equal, the system assumes the better players should get more credit for you winning. Also, in general, if you had an amazing team, none of you will get much CSR if the outcome was as expected. It means the match wasn't informative and nothing you did proved you were any better than the system already thought you were. It expected you to win, and you did, therefore your CSR is already correct and it doesn't need to go up any more.

That said, we are working on a feature that will better account for your in-game performance, so if you actually outplay Champs you can end up with more credit, but that's a pretty far down the road.

The reason you get Champs/Onyx on your team is also not related to the fix, but simply related to the population at the time you searched in Proving Grounds.

Basically if:
  • You search Focused
  • A Champion waits for more than 60 seconds
  • You also wait for more than 60 seconds
  • There's no one else as good as you waiting
  • You will match with the Champion
Otherwise, the Champion players will never match with anybody ever once the population gets low, which doesn't seem fair.

Fortunately, there are a lot more Platinum than Onyx/Champion players, so this won't happen super often.
So the real question to me is not boosting. it's why you still allow teams of 3 and teams of 4 to find random players. every major game i can think of restricts this. that's why they call it solo que. I'm tired of getting on and finding teams of 4 that just dominate because they are finding randoms. You've created a delicate ranking system in a social searching system. teams of 3 find teams of 3 and teams of 4 find teams of 4. no excuses it makes more sense.
So the real question to me is not boosting. it's why you still allow teams of 3 and teams of 4 to find random players. every major game i can think of restricts this. that's why they call it solo que. I'm tired of getting on and finding teams of 4 that just dominate because they are finding randoms. You've created a delicate ranking system in a social searching system. teams of 3 find teams of 3 and teams of 4 find teams of 4. no excuses it makes more sense.
Yes, what ever happened to the talk of balancing the average skill of random solos to be a bit better than that of organized to4s? It was stated that if you did this we wouldn't need a solo queue list. It's especially bad in Social Skirmish which could easily be called "Stomping Grounds" to offset "Proving Grounds".
Here's a question that somewhat relates to MM, to4s, individuals, and imbalanced games. You must have stats collected from every pro player in every HCS event. How accurately would those stats, when plugged into your MMR system, predict the outcomes of these events? Have you ever tried to do it? How effectively could you handicap a tourney? Some sweeps have looked too easy to be competitive, and other series have been intense nail biters to game seven, and these are all pros.
So the real question to me is not boosting. it's why you still allow teams of 3 and teams of 4 to find random players. every major game i can think of restricts this. that's why they call it solo que. I'm tired of getting on and finding teams of 4 that just dominate because they are finding randoms. You've created a delicate ranking system in a social searching system. teams of 3 find teams of 3 and teams of 4 find teams of 4. no excuses it makes more sense.
Yes, what ever happened to the talk of balancing the average skill of random solos to be a bit better than that of organized to4s? It was stated that if you did this we wouldn't need a solo queue list. It's especially bad in Social Skirmish which could easily be called "Stomping Grounds" to offset "Proving Grounds".
Still working on it. We'll put it in as soon as we can, and that also means testing that it's not broken first.
Here's a question that somewhat relates to MM, to4s, individuals, and imbalanced games. You must have stats collected from every pro player in every HCS event. How accurately would those stats, when plugged into your MMR system, predict the outcomes of these events? Have you ever tried to do it? How effectively could you handicap a tourney? Some sweeps have looked too easy to be competitive, and other series have been intense nail biters to game seven, and these are all pros.
It's been awhile since I've done that actually, so I can't answer that question exactly.

When I've done that in the past, Pro team MMRs were often close enough that it was difficult to predict.

If you give me two teams with gamertags, I can do a quick estimate based on TA or PG if you want. But probably just one since it takes awhile to do by hand.
ZaedynFel wrote:
CSR Gains are kinda screwy with the MM now, just played Strongholds on Mercy in PG even tho I was the one getting caps because there was a Champ n Onyx on my team I got jack for CSR, so basically that win was for nothing cos of how we now get CSR but if I hadnt made caps I would of lost CSR.

Seriously Ranked Arena seems broke AF right now. Matchmaking parameters need tightening now because if you randomly get placed with Champs/Onyx you will literally get no CSR for winning at Plat/Diamond level when play against other players your level, all because you randomly got Champs on your team. I get the CSR inflation was a issue that needed resolving but now its created other issues. Its like a repeat of Destiny right now, solve one problem and 5 more appear.... come on guy don't repeat the mistakes of others.
This has nothing to do with the recent fix, it's always been this way. If you have players with much higher MMR on the team than you do, the system assumes they did the work. This is true of almost all Ranking / Skill systems out there today. All else being equal, the system assumes the better players should get more credit for you winning. Also, in general, if you had an amazing team, none of you will get much CSR if the outcome was as expected. It means the match wasn't informative and nothing you did proved you were any better than the system already thought you were. It expected you to win, and you did, therefore your CSR is already correct and it doesn't need to go up any more.

That said, we are working on a feature that will better account for your in-game performance, so if you actually outplay Champs you can end up with more credit, but that's a pretty far down the road.

The reason you get Champs/Onyx on your team is also not related to the fix, but simply related to the population at the time you searched in Proving Grounds.

Basically if:
  • You search Focused
  • A Champion waits for more than 60 seconds
  • You also wait for more than 60 seconds
  • There's no one else as good as you waiting
  • You will match with the Champion
Otherwise, the Champion players will never match with anybody ever once the population gets low, which doesn't seem fair.

Fortunately, there are a lot more Platinum than Onyx/Champion players, so this won't happen super often.
Fair enough but then since your CSR gains are determined by your team shouldn't we be able to see other players CSR level at the start of the game? Because why should players try hard playing OBJ while other players just slay not bothering to win get nothing CSR wise, also the fact a Champ and Onyx player can match Plats is stupid, my effort to secure a win turning out to be none rewarding because of this is demoralizing as well the fact the other team did not have a Champ or Onyx player either. If you aim for tighter searches why not lock Champ/Onyx player to matching Diamonds... the Golds to Plats. Not this mismatch of ranks that people constantly complain about.
Is there a reason that I am ranking down so fast all of the sudden? I worked my way up to Diamond 6 in slayer and then I lose a game and go down to D5. I would think that winning my next game would get me back to D6 but that isn't the case. Is it because of the leveling out that you talked about?
This is more of a opinion then anything here, but I'm really starting to think ranks should just be something like, if you win you go up set amount (1,2,5,10 whatever) of points and if you loose you go down set amount of points. Maybe those points change depending on what rank class you are. For example if a gold wins they always goes up 10 Points no matter what. No matter what the other team is ranked. Where as a Platinum player wins (on the same team as the gold player) maybe they always go up 5 points. Until they reach the next level of ranks. You know I what I mean?? Way to many times myself and people I play with don't understand why say x player on our team goes up/down x amount while a other is so much different.

I had games the other day (and many other days) where I lost more CSR against champ players or higher (then my rank) Onyx players then Diamond players!! Which to me doesn't make sense at all. Champion players or anyone in general that is ranked higher than me, SHOULD be favored to beat me as far as I'm concerned in how this current ranking system is setup. I shouldn't loose that much if I lose too people that are ranked higher than me. I was loosing 16,17,18 CSR points in a lost which I think is craziness! I understand loosing that much against People lower then me, but... Ya.... This happens too many times I feel.

I know things are being worked on in this area but I 100% think things need to be much clearer as too how much CRS you/your team mates gain or loose before a match starts.

I don't know... I don't know the answer here, I'm just throwing thoughts out there, but I just know myself and other people get very confused (and frustrated) with this system. It needs to be simpler or something and A LOT clearer. I can't even tell you how many times I've heard people (friends or randoms) say "why did I go down/up that much?? why did they get more than me?? and so on... It's great that you guys (343I) understand this system, but many, many other people do not and unless you put some type of video IN THE GAME or something explaining how things work, this type of frustration will continue in H5 and future Halos if this system is used.

I think the current ranking system works pretty good for FFA, but team wise.... not so much.

Side note, not all of us have the time to play everyday so these rank resets get tiresome. A lot of us will never know what we could truly reach overtime because of them. I personally know 3 people who flat-out quit Halo 5 within the first few weeks upon learning that there rank would be reset every month or two. I read why you've decided to do them but can't say I fully agree. More people then not don't want to continually start "all over again" per say every 1-2 months.

One more thing lol I think I can speak for everyone here (for once lol) when I say we appreciate these kinds of updates and information keep it up!!
Love these updates.

The big issue for me at the moment is regional matchmaking. I simply can't find a game in Australia. Can you possibly look at players from a particular data centre and draw some conclusions? I suspect a lot of my peers are just making new accounts over and over to find games.
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nendoras wrote:
I wanna know why on saturday I played FFA and won but my CSR did not go up; not even one point.
I'm gonna play later and try to win to taste how it is going, but, losing against unranked-lvl10s-and ending second with 12 kills to see my CSR drop down feels like BS.
I'm having the same issues. Finishing second or third behind a Smurf equals losing CSR. It's pissing me off. I still beat everyone that isn't cheating in the lobby, why am I getting punished and losing CSR?
ZaedynFel wrote:
Here's a question that somewhat relates to MM, to4s, individuals, and imbalanced games. You must have stats collected from every pro player in every HCS event. How accurately would those stats, when plugged into your MMR system, predict the outcomes of these events? Have you ever tried to do it? How effectively could you handicap a tourney? Some sweeps have looked too easy to be competitive, and other series have been intense nail biters to game seven, and these are all pros.
It's been awhile since I've done that actually, so I can't answer that question exactly.

When I've done that in the past, Pro team MMRs were often close enough that it was difficult to predict.

If you give me two teams with gamertags, I can do a quick estimate based on TA or PG if you want. But probably just one since it takes awhile to do by hand.
Thanks for the reply. I'm just interested in a general way if you've ever tried it, not specifically enough for you to go to the trouble of working an estimate. I would expect that, when judged against the entire population, the MMRs of most pros would cluster together in a spot above the rest, making matching any two pro teams seem appropriate. However, even when doing that we see blowouts based occasional bad games everyone has and unbalanced team work/strategy, regardless of skill. All the same, W/L or CSR rank aside, it would be interesting to know which H5 players have the top four MMRs and how they might mesh as a team.
Is there a reason that I am ranking down so fast all of the sudden? I worked my way up to Diamond 6 in slayer and then I lose a game and go down to D5. I would think that winning my next game would get me back to D6 but that isn't the case. Is it because of the leveling out that you talked about?
Most likely, yes, that would be the reason.
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