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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – April 10

OP ZaedynFel

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I had games the other day (and many other days) where I lost more CSR against champ players or higher (then my rank) Onyx players then Diamond players!! Which to me doesn't make sense at all. Champion players or anyone in general that is ranked higher than me, SHOULD be favored to beat me as far as I'm concerned in how this current ranking system is setup. I shouldn't loose that much if I lose too people that are ranked higher than me. I was loosing 16,17,18 CSR points in a lost which I think is craziness! I understand loosing that much against People lower then me, but... Ya.... This happens too many times I feel.
Your CSR change has no direct relation to the CSR of your opponent, only their MMR. Otherwise the system diverges. Unfortunately, we don't currently communicate this well in the game. We'd like to improve that though, but we won't be seeing changes in Halo 5.

Fixed point changes like you suggested also, unfortunately, diverge. Divergence is bad.
Love these updates. Honestly I don't care if I'm bronze or diamond, I just want 50-49 matches where all the players were near even k/d and it's tense until end. Not realistic to expect that every single match, but these tweaks help us get a lot of those matches. Question: Why don't we just make MMR visible and toss CSR ranks? I'm sure there's a valid reason I'm just curious what it is.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.
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Excellent update. Thank you!
Love these updates. Honestly I don't care if I'm bronze or diamond, I just want 50-49 matches where all the players were near even k/d and it's tense until end. Not realistic to expect that every single match, but these tweaks help us get a lot of those matches. Question: Why don't we just make MMR visible and toss CSR ranks? I'm sure there's a valid reason I'm just curious what it is.
  • MMR is what we expect you to do, so it's what we matchmake on.
  • CSR is what you've actually done and earned. It's you proving you deserve the MMR we expected.
So we start you each season a little back from your MMR to make sure you can prove you deserve it, and then we match you at the MMR. If you play as expected, you reach that MMR. If you don't, you stay where you are and your MMR drops down to where it should be.

I do think we need to surface up at least a team-level representation of MMR so players understand why matches were made the way they were. But we won't see that in H5.
You know what might help a lot of this confusion people seem to have about not understanding the distinction of CSR and MMR...

is just put a little ^ or V arrow next to their rank to indicate if they are currently on the rise or the downturn when MMR is compared with relative CSR.

So many people get reactionary and quit playing when they see "omg I faced a full team of Onyx!!" without realising those opponents hadn't played in 2 weeks and were losing all their matches to diamond/platinum that day.

Also, probably you already do something like this, but MMR should be faster to get back to relative CSR level than it is to get away from relative CSR level.
That way, for example, if someone had taken a break and then sucks & ranks down their first 5 games, then suddenly hits their groove on the 6th, it should only take 3 good games to get back to where they were previously at, rather than the same number that it took to get away, forcing lower skilled players to keep getting beat for longer than necessary. I guess the system probably has a whole lot of other caveats that already make this completely redundant, but just wanted to throw it in as a related "real life situation" consideration.
I'm diamond 6 in swat and I have been matching diamonds mixed with platinum players and the odd gold who are at my skill level. Since they have lower csr I don't go up much when I win and go down more when I loose. When the game awards csr after a game does it take into account mmr? If not can the system be tweaked so that I don't loose half my rank when defeated by a platinum with diamond skill?
Also how is csr awarded when I match unranked players?
ZaedynFel wrote:
#2 means smurf boosting no longer works well at the Champion level. It also means Champions can earn more CSR playing with other Champions, especially at the beginning of the season.#2 also has some implications for Champion-level players playing with their noob friends. Basically, something has to give. Extremely high CSR players playing with low ones causes systemic problems, even when done honestly.

Many other competitive games put a hard block on high ranked players playing with low ones. Instead of doing that, we'll allow you to play together with the same matchmaking experience, but with the softer penalty of losing some rank if you’re at or near the Champion level.

If a Champion level player decides to play with their noob friends, their Rank will descend gradually to the average skill between the Champion and who they play with. Which I think it a fair compromise.

Or, said another way, if you want to keep your Champion-level Rank, you have to play with Champion teammates, which I also think is fair.

Overall, this update also means that CSR now more accurately reflects the skill of our players than ever before. There will still be some lingering inflation this season, but I'm hoping next season results in the best ranks we've seen yet. This does mean that the higher Ranks like Onyx and even to a lesser extent, Diamond, will be harder than ever to attain, but I think that's for the best.

What will happen if a high Onyx player parties up with a legitimately Silver player?This totally fine, we don’t mind it at all. Don’t worry about this if you are doing it legitimately.
If the gap gets too big, then you will see something like this:
  • Matchmaking is the same as today.
  • The lower-skilled players’ CSR will move like normal
  • The higher-skilled players’ CSR will go down towards the middle of the two MMRS.
Basically, instead of straight up blocking you from playing together, we just make it harder to rank up in the extreme cases. Most of the time it will be fine though. As I said above, if you really want that top Champion spot, you need to team with other Champions.

Quick question -- is there a place for us to report people we think are abusing the system and having their friends use smurf accounts to win games? I've seen some people who have ridiculously high win percentages (80 - 90) and just taking a cursory look at their game log it's clear that they're just smurfing for each other. If not, no worries, just wondering if there's a way to expedite the reporting for some people that the system may miss.
I don't know if anyone who matters reads this but this is super simple. If anyone who matters reads this please reply.
The penalties for quitting matches somehow is not working; at least not as well as it could.
This is how the system should work for arena games where team mates cannot join mid-game.
If you are on a team and a team mate quits:
-The first team member of the 4 to quit should rightly suffer the stiff penalties associated with quitting mid-match
-However, allow the remaining 3 players to quit the match without penalty (that is, without the possibility of incurring a ban - still count it as a loss if you must). The reason for this is obvious - the remaining players that did not quit should not suffer the penalty of playing the rest of the game outnumbered. I shouldn't have to finish a 4-15 slayer game to completion because someone quit out on my team...don't get me started on the idea of playing strongholds outnumbered, that is stupid.
Is there any conceivable good reason that this is not the current process?
This is so blatantly obvious to me; and you guys aren't stupid..this is your job.
If you want some sort of idea who is commenting - i have graduated a 4 year institution with a bachelor of science, double majoring in biochemistry and genetics. I have a master of science degree in clinical laboratory science and in 28 days I will be a doctor of medicine...so i'm not a slouch either.
Call Fire wrote:
I don't know if anyone who matters reads this but this is super simple. If anyone who matters reads this please reply.
The penalties for quitting matches somehow is not working; at least not as well as it could.
This is how the system should work for arena games where team mates cannot join mid-game.
If you are on a team and a team mate quits:
-The first team member of the 4 to quit should rightly suffer the stiff penalties associated with quitting mid-match
-However, allow the remaining 3 players to quit the match without penalty (that is, without the possibility of incurring a ban - still count it as a loss if you must). The reason for this is obvious - the remaining players that did not quit should not suffer the penalty of playing the rest of the game outnumbered. I shouldn't have to finish a 4-15 slayer game to completion because someone quit out on my team...don't get me started on the idea of playing strongholds outnumbered, that is stupid.
Is there any conceivable good reason that this is not the current process?
This is so blatantly obvious to me; and you guys aren't stupid..this is your job.
If you want some sort of idea who is commenting - i have graduated a 4 year institution with a bachelor of science, double majoring in biochemistry and genetics. I have a master of science degree in clinical laboratory science and in 28 days I will be a doctor of medicine...so i'm not a slouch either.
Well, from one Doctor to a future Doctor, thanks for the comment!

What you have suggested is actually something I proposed in a previous post, and something we are currently working on.
I'm diamond 6 in swat and I have been matching diamonds mixed with platinum players and the odd gold who are at my skill level. Since they have lower csr I don't go up much when I win and go down more when I loose. When the game awards csr after a game does it take into account mmr? If not can the system be tweaked so that I don't loose half my rank when defeated by a platinum with diamond skill?
Also how is csr awarded when I match unranked players?
Your CSR update is based on:
  1. Your CSR
  2. The MMR of your teammates
  3. The MMR of your opponents.
Everyone has an MMR, even those in placement. In fact, most of those in placement are returning players and have a well-established MMR, so we know "exactly" how good they are.

I looked at your match history and I don't see a huge bias towards getting less for a win than a loss. If we were giving you perfect matches, you would be getting +/- 15.

Matchmaking is "perfect" sometimes --- you will get those +/- 15 matches, however, just because of the nature of randomness and population, you will also get non-perfect matches. While you are not, e.g., a Champion, you also aren't very close to the middle of the system anymore. This means when you do get those randomly imperfect matches, they are more likely to be too easy than too hard, simply because there's a lot more population to the left of you than to the right of you. When you get matches that are too easy, you won't get as many points for winning, and you'll lose more for losing. However, you will also win more of these than you lose, so overall your CSR will stay stable.

Remember, CSR is not supposed to just keep going up if you play enough. It's supposed to stabilize around your MMR if you prove that your MMR is correct. In your case, your CSR is near your MMR, so I would not expect it to increase substantially unless you get much better / worse than you currently are. That's the trade-off of a skill-anchored system.
i think the ffa ranking system is broken zaedyn.I just played a game of ranked ffa on truth i got 24 kills,was 1st place most of the games w 16 mag kills and i finished 2nd place and i was diamond 6,i had 1 game left until i could reach onyx(the blue bar that shows how close i am was really close to the edge) and then the game gives me a negative CSR,what gives cause i thought finishing top 3 would at least give you positive?
i think the ffa ranking system is broken zaedyn.I just played a game of ranked ffa on truth i got 24 kills,was 1st place most of the games w 16 mag kills and i finished 2nd place and i was diamond 6,i had 1 game left until i could reach onyx(the blue bar that shows how close i am was really close to the edge) and then the game gives me a negative CSR,what gives cause i thought finishing top 3 would at least give you positive?
Read the first bullet point of the first post in this topic.
Any update on when those social playlist changes you were working on will go into effect?
ZaedynFel wrote:
i think the ffa ranking system is broken zaedyn.I just played a game of ranked ffa on truth i got 24 kills,was 1st place most of the games w 16 mag kills and i finished 2nd place and i was diamond 6,i had 1 game left until i could reach onyx(the blue bar that shows how close i am was really close to the edge) and then the game gives me a negative CSR,what gives cause i thought finishing top 3 would at least give you positive?
Read the first bullet point of the first post in this topic.
i did and read it again.I doesnt motivate me to play ffa more if you give me negative CSR when you do your best to even place 2nd,especially if you play against people with worse connections or smurfs.Ill try to manage though.
ZaedynFel wrote:
i think the ffa ranking system is broken zaedyn.I just played a game of ranked ffa on truth i got 24 kills,was 1st place most of the games w 16 mag kills and i finished 2nd place and i was diamond 6,i had 1 game left until i could reach onyx(the blue bar that shows how close i am was really close to the edge) and then the game gives me a negative CSR,what gives cause i thought finishing top 3 would at least give you positive?
Read the first bullet point of the first post in this topic.
i did and read it again.I doesnt motivate me to play ffa more if you give me negative CSR when you do your best to even place 2nd,especially if you play against people with worse connections or smurfs.Ill try to manage though.
I am forced to agree with this person above, and with another person in another H5 Matchmaking thread whom I will also quote shortly. Referring to the previous post I made on “FFA Ranking Broken”, I want to both elaborate and further mirror some evidence against the points which I made in that post. I took a weeklong break from Halo due to this whole “CSR Updating Fix”, and gave FFA a chance again last night. I played a grand total of 14 FFA games last night in which I scored 2 matches in First Place, 4 matches in Second Place, 3 matches in Third Place, and the remainder in which I placed fourth and fifth. The times in which I scored second or lower place, I lost MUCH of the time to an UNRANKED player which caused my CSR to unbelievably degrade, which was a blood-boiler. What is the basis on your algorithm for losses to an UNRANKED player? The system seems skewed, that the ranking system believes that that the unranked guy is a noob and clearly I’m being punished for losing to him (“losing” being 2nd place), even though the Unranked is blatantly a Smurf. The weighted punishment for losing to such Unranked Smurfs is FAR, far too heavy. The basic trend I’ve noticed in my game outcome is that generally speaking, I’m in the top 3 player tier of the scored outcome in each game, and by and large still, I CONTINUE to lose CSR. I find this fix to your system (343) disturbingly demoralizing and overall unfair to players like myself who have GROUND up since the beginning of their ranked careers on Halo 5: furthermore, players like myself and the dude in the other thread who have LEGITIMATELY won their way up previously to Onyx by placing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the lion’s share of most FFA games they’ve played. Why is it that my CSR doesn’t agree with my supposed MMR? Obviously, I had originally won my way up to Onyx initially for a reason ---- due to skill, and I did so fairly on my own steam, not utilizing Smurf accounts or having a buddy play on my behalf, etc etc etc. The final trend, and frankly, the feeling I and a great mass of other Halo players are also experiencing, is sheer and utter demoralization and loss of motivation in playing this game. In essence, the trend being compartmentalized is that if you play, and do well, you will still LOSE, and furthermore, to an unknown degree. I’ve fallen in rank now from low level Onyx to Platinum-6 FFA, and where does the CSR loss END? That aspect also is immensely demoralizing and extremely unmotivating. I’m sorry ZaedynFel…you state that CSR degression/loss is because MMR is not in agreement with CSR, but I’ll reiterate the basic point: I previously rose to Onyx FFA initially due to mainly placing in the top 3 tier of each match, not by scraping by with CSR awarded from fourth (or fifth?) place. I, personally, didn’t find it easy or a cakewalk at all to grind from initially Gold/whatever up to Onyx…..so whoever keeps stating that it was originally too easy, is spouting ridiculous fallacies. The system, altogether, is broken, and punishing players for doing well and continuing to support your game is absolutely not the way to do it.

The other guy who posted was in “FFA Ranking Broken” Thread, and was by JayDaDevil666: “15 hours ago
JayDaDEvIL666 Marine - Iron
HiTechRedneck3 wrote:
a LvL99 Jay wrote:
Guys, it's just "catching up" with where your CSR should really be. If you're losing CSR, it's because your CSR was too high in the first place. Once it has gotten to where it's supposed to be, your +/- progression will even out and not be so crazy. And stop with the "winning 10 straight" hyperbole, none of you are winning 10 in a row at your already-inflated ranks anyway lmao.
Exactly. Our CSR is much higher in FFA than it's supposed to be since they've been awarding CSR as longn as you don't finish last. Once it evens out, from what I understand, it'll be more like it should've been from the start (CSR awarded only for top 3). I personally am glad for the change, gaining CSR for placing 5th is ridiculous. Glad that ranking up in FFA should now be about skill rather than just a grind fest like it has been.
The thing is what about players like me who got their Onyx/Champ by always placing Top 3 ? We're still experiencing CSR loss for 2nd and 3rd placements, I have no issue with the fix just that to drop it in mid-season seems to be very disruptive to the FFA community and in my opinion should of been introduced at the start of the new season with some information released beforehand instead of dropping it in suddenly leaving players in the dark with no clue as to what is happening.

Also, if you want credentials on who I am for credibility on intelligence, analytical ability, or whatever, I have twin four year university degrees, one in biochemistry/pre-medical science, the other degree in music/guitar performance. I also have a 2 year degree in Paramedicine and have worked as a Paramedic for 4 years now, understand mathematics/Calculus, physics and also general algorithmic principles greatly, so I like to consider myself an overall intelligent guy. I also can speak 3 languages fluently. Not some schmuck. Just my 2cents with this whole ordeal. Many have previously posted on this exact complaint and will continue to do so probably for the foreseeable future. Please, 343, consider that your currently overhauled ranking system is QUITE broken.
I rarely find Champion SWAT games. I search at all times of the day and it's a complete nightmare. You have to play with smurf accounts to find games and you get 1 CSR for the win. Another option is to make a new account and rank it up to Onyx-Champion and not find games again. Can you please make SWAT social or widened the range.

Also, there is a problem with getting CSR once you are at the top of the food chain. A team of 4 SWAT veterans will run on their main accounts and get 1 csr for a win against low-tier champs, smurf champs, onyx and diamond players. That is not enough incentive to play the game. Especially when people are making smurf champs and running solo or 2s and stealing your CSR on a beat-up Champ they purposely made to get CSR. That beat-up smurf Champ is getting 25-30 CSR against the team of 4 SWAT veterans he beats 1-2 times out of 10 or so games.

Example: Team of 4 SWAT veterans wins 8 games for 8 CSR and then loses 2 games to the beat-up smurf Champ for -50 to -60 CSR putting them at -42 to -52 CSR after playing 10 games. Meanwhile, the beat-up smurf Champ is purposely running solo and taking losses from everyone and gets CSR from a lot more people than the team of 4 that is winning 90%-95% of their games. Currently, Champ 1 in SWAT is a beat-up smurf Champ account that solo ques.

Another thing, the SWAT playlist misses the variety of maps it once had. WE need our maps back!!!
ZaedynFel wrote:
i think the ffa ranking system is broken zaedyn.I just played a game of ranked ffa on truth i got 24 kills,was 1st place most of the games w 16 mag kills and i finished 2nd place and i was diamond 6,i had 1 game left until i could reach onyx(the blue bar that shows how close i am was really close to the edge) and then the game gives me a negative CSR,what gives cause i thought finishing top 3 would at least give you positive?
Read the first bullet point of the first post in this topic.
i did and read it again.I doesnt motivate me to play ffa more if you give me negative CSR when you do your best to even place 2nd,especially if you play against people with worse connections or smurfs.Ill try to manage though.
I am forced to agree with this person above, and with another person in another H5 Matchmaking thread whom I will also quote shortly. Referring to the previous post I made on “FFA Ranking Broken”, I want to both elaborate and further mirror some evidence against the points which I made in that post. I took a weeklong break from Halo due to this whole “CSR Updating Fix”, and gave FFA a chance again last night. I played a grand total of 14 FFA games last night in which I scored 2 matches in First Place, 4 matches in Second Place, 3 matches in Third Place, and the remainder in which I placed fourth and fifth. The times in which I scored second or lower place, I lost MUCH of the time to an UNRANKED player which caused my CSR to unbelievably degrade, which was a blood-boiler. What is the basis on your algorithm for losses to an UNRANKED player? The system seems skewed, that the ranking system believes that that the unranked guy is a noob and clearly I’m being punished for losing to him (“losing” being 2nd place), even though the Unranked is blatantly a Smurf. The weighted punishment for losing to such Unranked Smurfs is FAR, far too heavy. The basic trend I’ve noticed in my game outcome is that generally speaking, I’m in the top 3 player tier of the scored outcome in each game, and by and large still, I CONTINUE to lose CSR. I find this fix to your system (343) disturbingly demoralizing and overall unfair to players like myself who have GROUND up since the beginning of their ranked careers on Halo 5: furthermore, players like myself and the dude in the other thread who have LEGITIMATELY won their way up previously to Onyx by placing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the lion’s share of most FFA games they’ve played. Why is it that my CSR doesn’t agree with my supposed MMR? Obviously, I had originally won my way up to Onyx initially for a reason ---- due to skill, and I did so fairly on my own steam, not utilizing Smurf accounts or having a buddy play on my behalf, etc etc etc. The final trend, and frankly, the feeling I and a great mass of other Halo players are also experiencing, is sheer and utter demoralization and loss of motivation in playing this game. In essence, the trend being compartmentalized is that if you play, and do well, you will still LOSE, and furthermore, to an unknown degree. I’ve fallen in rank now from low level Onyx to Platinum-6 FFA, and where does the CSR loss END? That aspect also is immensely demoralizing and extremely unmotivating. I’m sorry ZaedynFel…you state that CSR degression/loss is because MMR is not in agreement with CSR, but I’ll reiterate the basic point: I previously rose to Onyx FFA initially due to mainly placing in the top 3 tier of each match, not by scraping by with CSR awarded from fourth (or fifth?) place. I, personally, didn’t find it easy or a cakewalk at all to grind from initially Gold/whatever up to Onyx…..so whoever keeps stating that it was originally too easy, is spouting ridiculous fallacies. The system, altogether, is broken, and punishing players for doing well and continuing to support your game is absolutely not the way to do it.

The other guy who posted was in “FFA Ranking Broken” Thread, and was by JayDaDevil666: “15 hours ago
JayDaDEvIL666 Marine - Iron"The thing is what about players like me who got their Onyx/Champ by always placing Top 3 ? We're still experiencing CSR loss for 2nd and 3rd placements, I have no issue with the fix just that to drop it in mid-season seems to be very disruptive to the FFA community and in my opinion should of been introduced at the start of the new season with some information released beforehand instead of dropping it in suddenly leaving players in the dark with no clue as to what is happening."Also, if you want credentials on who I am for credibility on intelligence, analytical ability, or whatever, I have twin four year university degrees, one in biochemistry/pre-medical science, the other degree in music/guitar performance. I also have a 2 year degree in Paramedicine and have worked as a Paramedic for 4 years now, understand mathematics/Calculus, physics and also general algorithmic principles greatly, so I like to consider myself an overall intelligent guy. I also can speak 3 languages fluently. Not some schmuck. Just my 2cents with this whole ordeal. Many have previously posted on this exact complaint and will continue to do so probably for the foreseeable future. Please, 343, consider that your currently overhauled ranking system is QUITE broken.
Just a edit to make mine and this guys point abit more clearer.
Seriously though Josh for those of who worked hard for our Onyx FFA Rank your newest fix is still slightly broken, losing CSR when placed 2nd or 3rd in FFA is abit ridiculous and now that the gains are from what I read above based off our MMR, well due to Win % dropping for 2nd and 3rd wouldn't our MMR drop anyway? This recent change really has made this season for FFA defunct again and is pointless for a FFA player to continue playing as we dont know how many games would need to play before we can start earning CSR back, granted it was slightly easy for lower skilled players to get Onyx but that had to be done is at the start of next season 4th to 6th place awards no CSR gain and you lose some and have 1st to 3rd count as Wins with the appropriate amount information on the changes released beforehand. Not wait until midseason to drop a drastic change on FFA players and cause us to feel demoralised by telling us our CSR is inflated because it doesn't match our MMR, wouldnt MMR fluxuate rapidly in FFA anyways? and you already stated the Matchmaking System sometimes struggles to keep up with rapidly changing MMR.

As much as I agree partially to this fix Josh you really should have waited for next season and the more simpler changes described above. For those of you here to ask about FFA my advice is basically treat this season of FFA as VOID as your FFA Rank is inaccurate due to the CSR Inflation at the start of the season which was recently "Fixed" but now feels broken and hope next season its more accurate to our MMR as to avoid losing CSR after hours of hard work.
I'm a legit gold player, and honestly, something needs to be done with the smurfing issue. I get why honest high level players do it, but it still is not fair for us lower level players. The hcs summer preview is THE worst for this. I have not played one single match where I have matched with legit golds/low plat. Looking at the other team's other ranks, they are high plat, mostly diamond and a few onyx. This takes not only the fun factor out for us golds, but also makes it impossible to improve as you get beat 50-10. Where's the learning there?

If you're a higher level player and can't hack it with your same level with the new settings, then you need to keep grinding and improve, just like the rest of us. No need to pretend you're gold/silver/bronze and crap all over everyone. Halo is for everyone of all ages and levels and should be fun, and not just for high level players.
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