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[Locked] MATCHMAKING FEEDBACK UPDATE – APRIL 24

OP ZaedynFel

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ZaedynFel wrote:
  • Social doesn’t have that gap. After 40 seconds of waiting, social allows any skill gap. Also, if you don’t search Focused, you can end up in a large gap match immediately if someone else in the match already waited over 40s
  • Warzone is the same as social, except it only waits 30s because it has to gather three time more players.
Do the same parameters apply for join-in-progress situations? How is it handled?

In my experience, focused searching by one or two players in Warzone (for example) guarantees a join-in-progress on the unhappy end of a bloodbath.
ZaedynFel wrote:
  • Social doesn’t have that gap. After 40 seconds of waiting, social allows any skill gap. Also, if you don’t search Focused, you can end up in a large gap match immediately if someone else in the match already waited over 40s
  • Warzone is the same as social, except it only waits 30s because it has to gather three time more players.
Do the same parameters apply for join-in-progress situations? How is it handled?

In my experience, focused searching by one or two players in Warzone (for example) guarantees a join-in-progress on the unhappy end of a bloodbath.
Unless people quit before the game even gets started good (first 5 minutes of the game or so), people joining in progress will always join the losing team. Hardly anyone willingly quits on a winning squad, after all, so all the open spots will be on the losing team. It's not really something I feel your search preferences have much of an, if any, effect on.
Just please add fair matching across the board. Facing teams if 6 in warzone is not fun when u are in a group of two and you get randoms.

Why can't teams of 6 face teams of 6 as the main priority of matching then gather the remaining 6 players fairly for each team?

I just hope fair matching based on party size and skill is at least added in h6 as a priority. I miss old Halo when you can play solo or with a friend and you didn't face teams.

I'm hoping when you evaluate MMR for social that teams are include. A team with great communication again 6 randoms with the same MMR is unbalanced. The team with communication will majority of the time beat randoms.
Just please add fair matching across the board. Facing teams if 6 in warzone is not fun when u are in a group of two and you get randoms.

Why can't teams of 6 face teams of 6 as the main priority of matching then gather the remaining 6 players fairly for each team?

I just hope fair matching based on party size and skill is at least added in h6 as a priority. I miss old Halo when you can play solo or with a friend and you didn't face teams.

I'm hoping when you evaluate MMR for social that teams are include. A team with great communication again 6 randoms with the same MMR is unbalanced. The team with communication will majority of the time beat randoms.
I'm pretty sure in all the old Halos, solos were facing squads just as much they are now in Halo 5. But anyway, I think the one thing you claim makes a game unbalanced (communication) kills your argument. You're basically saying the team that plays most like a team wins most of the time, therefore it's not fair for the other team. I don't see why things need to change at all based on that argument.
ZaedynFel wrote:
What are the difference in matchmaking across the different modes?
  • Ranked imposes a maximum MMR gap that can never be breached. This gap is mostly the same for every playlist---1 full Rank’s worth, which means mid-Plat can match up to mid-Diamond in MMR, for example---, though I’ve eased a few back because there were players unable to match in some lists. After 40 seconds of waiting, Ranked will allow anything within that maximum gap. In addition, if you don’t search focused, and someone else has already waited 40 seconds, that player can match with you instantly as long as they are within that gap.
  • Social doesn’t have that gap. After 40 seconds of waiting, social allows any skill gap. Also, if you don’t search Focused, you can end up in a large gap match immediately if someone else in the match already waited over 40s
  • Warzone is the same as social, except it only waits 30s because it has to gather three time more players.
Would it be possible (in later games) to have an option to extend or turn off the timer before it opens things up? I'm perfectly okay with waiting longer for matches if I have a better chance at a fair one. I realize a lot of people wouldn't feel that way, but I do.
ZaedynFel wrote:
What are the difference in matchmaking across the different modes?
  • Ranked imposes a maximum MMR gap that can never be breached. This gap is mostly the same for every playlist---1 full Rank’s worth, which means mid-Plat can match up to mid-Diamond in MMR, for example---, though I’ve eased a few back because there were players unable to match in some lists. After 40 seconds of waiting, Ranked will allow anything within that maximum gap. In addition, if you don’t search focused, and someone else has already waited 40 seconds, that player can match with you instantly as long as they are within that gap.
  • Social doesn’t have that gap. After 40 seconds of waiting, social allows any skill gap. Also, if you don’t search Focused, you can end up in a large gap match immediately if someone else in the match already waited over 40s
  • Warzone is the same as social, except it only waits 30s because it has to gather three time more players.
Would it be possible (in later games) to have an option to extend or turn off the timer before it opens things up? I'm perfectly okay with waiting longer for matches if I have a better chance at a fair one. I realize a lot of people wouldn't feel that way, but I do.
I actually think a lot of people do. Maybe not in soical, but in ranked play, I hear all the time. So your not alone at all.
Just please add fair matching across the board. Facing teams if 6 in warzone is not fun when u are in a group of two and you get randoms.

Why can't teams of 6 face teams of 6 as the main priority of matching then gather the remaining 6 players fairly for each team?

I just hope fair matching based on party size and skill is at least added in h6 as a priority. I miss old Halo when you can play solo or with a friend and you didn't face teams.

I'm hoping when you evaluate MMR for social that teams are include. A team with great communication again 6 randoms with the same MMR is unbalanced. The team with communication will majority of the time beat randoms.
Why people seem to think there are so many teams out there, there is not. There are WAY more solo players. Take team Slayer for example, if you made a team of 4 ONLY play against a other team of 4 they would be waiting forever!!! Or Playing the same few teams over and over again. Just image if they did this, it'd be terrible!!!

You said you were playing with your buddy, so there is two of you. What if the game said "ok your a fireteam of two, you have to matched against other fireteams of two" again, you would be waiting FOREVER for a match.lol

All this said, skill has to be considered as well. If there was a team of 4 that were say in gold level ranks, is it fair that they play a team of diamonds?? Absolutely not. Why don't they play a other team of gold's you ask? Well, what if there isn't a other team of golds on at the time.

Frankly, and this isn't directed towards RipShaDe 41 at all, just a general statement, but I'm really tired of people complaining about seeing teams in TEAM playlists. Your in a TEAM playlist, you should except to see teams lol this isn't a hard concept to grasp lol Especially in ranked. The problem I see is that people want to play on teams, but don't want to act like they're on a team. If your not a competitive person or maybe you just want to play and not worry about rank, well then play social, problem solved. Are you going to have some games where you play against full organized team and you get stomped? sure, but for the most part that's not going to happen. So many people expect to win every game I feel and when they don't it's complain, complain, complain... Something must be wrong. I do feel they could do things like make ranked and social stats separate, which would help ranked feel more ranked and social feel more social. It would also help with some other things as well.

As people have stated including myself, the game should try to match full teams of equal skill against other full teams of equal skill BUT after so much time of waiting, if no team can be found it should start filling the spots with partial teams then solo players of equal skill. 343I are working on things like this. Also, in past Halo games you could be playing solo or with a friend and play teams very easily.
I do feel they could do things like make ranked and social stats separate, which would help ranked feel more ranked and social feel more social. It would also help with some other things as well.
I fully agree with this. Arena stat tracking should be broken up into two statistics based on the two different environments: Social and Ranked. Perhaps this could be achieved in future titles.
Jolly Josh wrote:
Hey Josh, great update as usual.

Has the change to matchmaking where a team of four will face higher MMR individual players been patched in?

I ran solo this weekend as a diamond and matched a team of four that had a champion on it twice. One game I was with two other diamonds and an onyx, and the other game I think I was the 4th that joined a TO3 and they were all onyx. http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Jolly%20Josh/screenshot/6219122 Is this working as intended? (I know I can't see the hidden MMR as well as this being the first season of HCS Summer Playlist/Proving Ground).

I still am firmly in the camp that you can't quantify the advantage that a team of four has over individual players. (Strategies, Communication, knowledge of each players role/type of player helps tremendously). I know this has been argued before, but running solo in this game is painful.
I agree, great update.I soloQ most of the time, it just keeps being a pain since average team skill is taken into account instead of highest rank of the team... I think this should be the case in ranked matches.
Why people seem to think there are so many teams out there, there is not.
So you have the data that shows how many teams are playing every day in a playlist? Please enlighten us.
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I'm really tired of people complaining about seeing teams in TEAM playlists. Your in a TEAM playlist, you should except to see teams lol this isn't a hard concept to grasp lol Especially in ranked.
Huh? Every playlist is a TEAM playlist with the exception of FFA so solo players don't really have a choice but to play in them and they shouldn't get screwed over because of that. 343 should've had something in place to accommodate parties and solo players when the game launched. It's actually sad that it's almost two years later and they're just recently starting to work on something for that.
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Are you going to have some games where you play against full organized team and you get stomped? sure, but for the most part that's not going to happen. So many people expect to win every game I feel and when they don't it's complain, complain, complain...
"For the most part." Lol, I run into full parties on a daily basis and get stomped at least once a day. You know why? Because the party matching system in social is awful so you have parties of onyx and champion players for example getting matched against silver level skilled players with overall negative K/D's. And I really doubt the playlist (BTB for me) would have problems finding enough people around the area of their skill level to match them with in a reasonable time.

I don't expect to win every game, but a lot of times in my experience I'll go on losing streaks where I'll lose 5-6 games in a row and only win 1 game and then go back to losing multiple games. If it's a rare occurrence, then it's not an issue, but it happens a lot and it's frustrating. I would much rather have wins and losses mixed more evenly.
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As people have stated including myself, the game should try to match full teams of equal skill against other full teams of equal skill BUT after so much time of waiting, if no team can be found it should start filling the spots with partial teams then solo players of equal skill. 343I are working on things like this.
This is the one thing I agree with you on besides the separate social and ranked stats. It's crazy that they're just recently working on this instead of having something at launch.
Also in regards to CSR, can we rank lock games please because it sucks that I cant gain any CSR because Diamonds are on my team or some who is a higher rank on my team stunts my CSR gain because the game got weighed in my favour. If Im Plat I should play with Plats and be allowed to gain or lose the appropriate CSR not gain 5 CSR points because the Matchmaker decided to throw Diamonds in my games, this is seriously damaging to solo players like myself who are trying to rank up as well a putting players in a "little to gain, lots to lose" scenario.
We already do that. We allow a gap of 1 Rank. But if you are mid-Platinum, that means you can play down to mid-Gold and up to mid-Diamond.

It has to be symmetrical. If we forced a top Platinum player to only match Platinum, then they would only match against players worse than them, which would not be fair to those players.

As it is, it actually already gives you slightly easier matches than we should because there are more players below you than above, and we don't stretch the above gap out proportionally.
Jolly Josh wrote:
Any idea of the schedule for when this would be implemented?
Not enough of an idea to say anything, no.
Krog001 wrote:
Great post!

So how many games make up your MMR? (Is it all your game history? Or like, how you performed in your last 10 games?)
It's all of your match history, but more recent matches have more weight. It's a set of numbers that get updated after each match based on the match outcome.

Krog001 wrote:
And do you have an MMR for each playlist?
Yes.
Jynx Fatal wrote:
I would say in ranked arena in general, as previously discussed on previous updates. For example in the current state of smurfing, matchmaking gaps (high skilled players matching low skilled players due to not being able to find a match, less punishable for lower skilled in a loss), FFA CSR loss on 2nd and 3rd, and much more but i hardly remember. On previous updates you provided topics like the ones i mentioned with possible solutions but some are not doable on halo 5. My main question is that based on the updates you provided to us, will some issues mentioned be more "balanced" on the upcoming season?

Speaking of season, is there any small info or details on the next season?
I think I'll have more updates next week. Several things inflight.
Apoll0 wrote:
My main question is in regards to the "Soft Forfeit" idea that was mentioned a while ago so that as long as you aren't the first (or second, not sure where you want to draw the line) person to quit you dont have to worry about getting a quit ban, but it still counts as a loss.

Is that being worked on?
Yes. That is really close. I'll have more news soon. I kind of want to wait until both the ban piece and the CSR penalty piece are in before announcing it.
Why is the wait time for the criteria shorter for Warzone compared to Social, you already mentioned that is is 3x the players but its only 75% of the time? Is the population that much larger that it is justified?
.
It's partly It's not that the population is larger, it's more like:
  • It's large enough
  • Warzone is straight messier when it comes to skill, so having looser matches has a lower impact on overall gameplay
  • In general, having larger teams has a watering down affect on skill and the effect of skill on a match
The net is you don't need to wait as long to have a good match. Also, keep in mind, we still balance teams aggressively on skill. So the skill gap between teams will be small.

Also finding the "best dedicated server" is only mentioned for WZFF, is this criteria weighed into the other matchmaking formulas?

Is finding the "best dedicated server" still a criteria when searching on focused even after the MMR criteria times out?

Is there a possibility to have a user defined weighting the can either focus on server priority or MMR, because playing Warzone I really do not care how much better people are than me I just care about shots landing as expected. It could be just that you have 5 points and you can either split them between MMR or server. Wouldnt this help people feel that they have more control because it seems most of the complaints about matchmaking are either skill gap or server quality.
Finding the best dedicated server (actually data center) is done all the time in all modes, and yes, even when the MMR criteria time out.

If you search Focused, you will be guaranteed no worse than some small percentage of your best possible data center. So search Focused and you should get what you are asking for, as best we can.
Is this update the reason for such bad connections recently then or is it just bad servers? Because I just played 3 games on balanced and had players teleport around the map, bullets not registering correctly (i.e 5th shot not killing or just ghost bullet effect) as well as players melee attack hit round a corner, seriously I was legit tempted to report hacks lol. But realtalk these bad connection issues are making it painful to play.
There has been nothing updated that makes the servers worse. Try Focused though.

If you are having to search Balanced / Expanded because Focused is taking too long, that generally means that, for your particular location and skill level, there aren't a lot of matches right now.
When is no fireteam restriction warzone returning?
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Why people seem to think there are so many teams out there, there is not.
So you have the data that shows how many teams are playing every day in a playlist? Please enlighten us.
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I'm really tired of people complaining about seeing teams in TEAM playlists. Your in a TEAM playlist, you should except to see teams lol this isn't a hard concept to grasp lol Especially in ranked.
Huh? Every playlist is a TEAM playlist with the exception of FFA so solo players don't really have a choice but to play in them and they shouldn't get screwed over because of that. 343 should've had something in place to accommodate parties and solo players when the game launched. It's actually sad that it's almost two years later and they're just recently starting to work on something for that.
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Are you going to have some games where you play against full organized team and you get stomped? sure, but for the most part that's not going to happen. So many people expect to win every game I feel and when they don't it's complain, complain, complain...
"For the most part." Lol, I run into full parties on a daily basis and get stomped at least once a day. You know why? Because the party matching system in social is awful so you have parties of onyx and champion players for example getting matched against silver level skilled players with overall negative K/D's. And I really doubt the playlist (BTB for me) would have problems finding enough people around the area of their skill level to match them with in a reasonable time.

I don't expect to win every game, but a lot of times in my experience I'll go on losing streaks where I'll lose 5-6 games in a row and only win 1 game and then go back to losing multiple games. If it's a rare occurrence, then it's not an issue, but it happens a lot and it's frustrating. I would much rather have wins and losses mixed more evenly.
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As people have stated including myself, the game should try to match full teams of equal skill against other full teams of equal skill BUT after so much time of waiting, if no team can be found it should start filling the spots with partial teams then solo players of equal skill. 343I are working on things like this.
This is the one thing I agree with you on besides the separate social and ranked stats. It's crazy that they're just recently working on this instead of having something at launch.
Wow, lol ok clam down there buddy :)

No I don't have any data on how many teams are out there (I should of put at any given time, my mistake) but it's safe to say it's not tons, as the population of halo 5 isn't that great. I have played over 2900 games in ranked/social play, A lot in teams, A lot solo. I see you have played a lot too. Even if 1 out of every 10 games I've played is against a full team in any mode (Team Slayer, BTB, etc) that means out of my 2900 games, 290 of them have been this. Still not bad and I know it's around that many. So you get stomped....ok, how many games in your last 30 did you? How many of those do you know FOR SURE it was a full team that was talking? A lot of people when they get stomped always assume it's a full team when it's not always at all. Also, if you play long enough and/or you play on a daily basis and play a lot which it sounds like you do, your bound to run into full teams eventually. Full teams I feel aren't the really the problem either I think, the skill level of players you play are, but how do you do this without making it ranked? Remember, higher level players like to play things like BTB too and they deserve to find games as well.

Yes I agree 343I should of had a better match making system in off the bat, but they didn't. So not point crying about split milk, might as well try and fix it or at least get better idea's and I think that is happening (Case in point information we have learned here for the last x amount of weeks) Do I wish things got fixed or changed sooner? Yes, of course!!! but it's wasn't and more likely it won't. So might as well deal with the hand that is dealt to us. I know every playlist is a team one minus FFA and Firefight in a way (as you fight AI and not human players) so people need to expect that they might run into teams as halo has team play and has always been about team play. You shouldn't be punished for wanting to play with your friends on a team and if they did teams only play other teams, especially without taking into consideration the teams skill levels, teams would have super long wait times and/or teams would play the same teams over and over again. That isn't fair at all nor is it fun. Yes I know getting stomped on isn't fun either, but unless this is happening to you every other game, then to me it's just how it is. It's going to happen from time to time. You want Halo to be a game where people say to there friends "Hey lets go play halo" not "Hey lets go play Halo...oh wait, forget it, we can never find games when we play as a team...lets go play something else" So are you one of these people who want a solo queue playlist then? I truly hope not as it's already been show that they don't help things at all and aren't the answer.

You play a lot of social I see BTB, fiesta etc. Fiesta can be blow outs easily so I won't even comment on that game mode. Social matches up anyone of any skill if my understanding is right. If the game matches up people of similar skill in social, you'd have player who can't find games and that isn't fair for that. Secondly,do you have the data that shows BTB wouldn't have a problem finding teams of players? You don't, just like I don't. Your assuming there is, which I understand why you would, but still you don't. I'd argue Team Slayer will have more teams then BTB would for obvious reasons. I play a good amount of BTB too, and I RARELY run into full parties. It's hard to get 8 people on at the same time, let alone everyone talking. Are you communicating with your team when you play BTB? I'm guessing not, so odds of your team loosing is down right there. If you don't talk your much more likely to lose or be blow out in any playlist. People might know this, but they don't ever seem to take it into consideration, they just come on here and complain. People want to play social yet they want to play people of there skill level. To me, that is hard to do without putting in some kind of skill ranking system, so in a sense your making it ranked. 343I did have BTB ranked off the bat, most people didn't like it. So what do you do then? I'm open to idea's as I'm sure they are too.

Look, I understand the frustration, I really do. At the end of the day we want the same things. Yes, I think 343I can do a better system, and yes I wish it was in off the bat as well, but like I said, this is what we have at the moment so not much we can do other then give fed back. I don't understand either why it's taken so long for things to happen, I know part of it is that certain things can't happen in Halo 5 due to how it was programed and such and I get that.... but at least it sounds like something is happening. Ranked and social stats being separate would help some things I think for sure and should be in future halo games. People want fair games but don't want them ranked which is arguably pretty hard to do I think ....people want to win, have close games and no blow outs, but don't want to talk to there team to help win.... and so on..... I don't know about you, but I think some of the problem at least is the attitude of people themselves and not the game.
Wow, lol ok clam down there buddy :)
So you get stomped....ok, how many games in your last 30 did you? How many of those do you know FOR SURE it was a full team that was talking? Full teams I feel aren't the really the problem either I think, the skill level of players you play are, but how do you do this without making it ranked?
I'm a lot calmer than you think. I would look at the games, but the site is screwed up right now. I know they're parties because they're dedicated full parties that I run into all the time or I'll run into them more than once. It is the skill levels that's the problem which is why I want closer skill levels when matching full parties. I'm not asking for strict matching like ranked, but something a little bit closer than what it is currently. Josh mentioned that he can make it strict games and loose games in the previous update so maybe he can do that when matching parties as well.
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if they did teams only play other teams, especially without taking into consideration the teams skill levels, teams would have super long wait times and/or teams would play the same teams over and over again. That isn't fair at all nor is it fun. So are you one of these people who want a solo queue playlist then?
I'm not wanting teams vs teams only. The population is too low for that now, but I only want what I previously mentioned. A solo queue would be nice, but it would probably have similar results if you did team vs team.
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If the game matches up people of similar skill in social, you'd have player who can't find games and that isn't fair for that.

I play a good amount of BTB too, and I RARELY run into full parties. Are you communicating with your team when you play BTB? I'm guessing not, so odds of your team loosing is down right there. To me, that is hard to do without putting in some kind of skill ranking system, so in a sense your making it ranked.
Like I said earlier, I don't want strict matching, but just closer skill matching with full parties which I think is doable in a playlist like BTB for example since it's traditionally been the more populated playlist in past Halos (my previous post assumption). The thing that's up in the air for me is if that kind of social change can be applied to individual playlists or is it universal.

I run into full parties everyday which is why I responded the way I did in my previous post. Granted, it's usually the same dedicated ones, but there are the random ones as well that I'll run into more than once. I communicate sometimes, but the majority of the time it's not worth it especially when no one else is talking either. When you're playing against onyx level players and most of your teammates are gold or lower, communicating isn't going to do much if they or me can't get kills. I'll let Josh determine if it's hard to do or not, but I think he could do it.

Edit: First game of the night in BTB. Get matched against a full party who farm us. They intentionally didn't score the last flag even when we only had 3-4 people left. Lol, you can't make this up.
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