[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – August 21

Chimera30 wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

radar3301enigma wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

radar3301enigma wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

eLantern wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

So now that MMR will be used instead of CSR, I personally think things will be a bit more confusing, seeing as how we will have no idea what our MMR is.

With MMR now being used, will the system be switched over somehow or will we at least be able to check what our MMR is that way we won't feel cheated somehow?

Also, I know I'm probably like two years ahead of myself, but will MMR or a similar system be used for the next Halo franchise game?

I believe MMR has always been in use or involved in Halo's Matchmaking since the development of Microsoft's TrueSkill system which dates back to 2005. Josh can correct me if I'm wrong.

Right or wrong. Nothing what I was asking got answered... but thanks for dropping some knowledge.

You had 3 items/sentences in your post.

1. You were told MMR has always been used.

2. Not applicable, due to the response in #1.

3. Why would Microsoft change now? To do so would cost a significant allocation of resources (i.e. money). So yes, they will use it in future franchise games.

All your questions got answered.

...

With MMR now being used instead of CSR, will the system show our MMR instead of our CSR that way we won't feel cheated somehow if for example like you stated we get a Gold v. Diamond match?

When will these changes take effect? I didn't see a time or date?

Also, I know I'm probably like two years ahead of myself, but will an MMR only system or a similar system be used for the next Halo franchise game seeing as how the current CSR system can be misleading in true-skill when matching up players/teams?

Edit: just for the sake of clarity, I'm talking about Ranked only, not Social or Warzone. I'm not sure if it makes a difference, though.

MMR has always been what the system uses to matchmake. As eLantern told you when you first asked this question, MMR is essentially the same thing as TrueSkill that was used in Halo 2 and Halo 3 matchmaking. As such, the system of showing CSR but hiding MMR will probably not change for Halo 5.

As for your second question, radar3301enigma was right: because MMR is already being used to determine matchmaking, there is no date when changes will take effect; MMR is already being used and has been since Halo 5 launched, so there are no changes to apply.

For your last question: Josh knows people are confused about the distinction between hidden MMR and visible CSR but has given no indication that they will will change things to make MMR visible in Halo 5 or future Halo games. At this point, it would be unlikely that MMR would be made the visible rank in Halo 5; for Halo 6, I suppose anything is possible. The most appropriate question you should have for Josh, I think, is why they use CSR as visible rank but use hidden MMR to determine who you match with.

• First, matchmaking is based on MMR not CSR.
• MMR serves too different of a purpose for it to be shown visibly.
• The main reason we don’t splash MMR all over is we reserve the right to use whatever information we can to update your MMR.
• MMR is meant to be expected performance. CSR is meant to be actual recent performance.
• We run your matches (in Halo 5) through the same system we ran it through for Halo 3.
• The general search (in reference to Halo 5) is much like Halo 3's, written by the same team.
• We have tested CSR matchmaking in the past and it was measurably inferior.
• Your CSR change has no direct relation to the CSR of your opponent, only their MMR.
• It's (CSR) supposed to stabilize around your MMR if you prove that your MMR is correct. Your CSR update is based on...
• We’ve actually run tests to look at CSR and SR and both are significantly worse than MMR for the purposes (of) matchmaking. However, they are also both better than MMR for Ranking and Progression respectively.
• MMR is also not a single number that shows your skill, it's a distribution. It's a complete bell curve. The middle of the bell curve is our best guess at how you're going to perform in your next game, so that's where we match make you.
• That's another reason (quitting) (for why) we like separating CSR and MMR.
• Another way to think about it... [using a metaphor]
• (CSR) Placement works off of your MMR, which is never reset.
• It (lagging out) doesn't affect your CSR, but it does affect your MMR maybe a tiny bit.

Chimera30 wrote:

As such, the system of showing CSR but hiding MMR will probably not change for Halo 5.

• I do think we need to surface up at least a team-level representation of MMR so players understand why matches were made the way they were. But we won't see that in H5.
• My answer in previous posts about exposing MMR is I think it would be nice to see it at the Team level, so you know that even though that team has some weird spread of CSR on it, the system expected them to play "Platinum", etc.
• I’ve mentioned a few times that I’d like to call out the MMR of each team (not player) so you can see how close each match actually is. It’s not something we can do in the short term, but just so you know we are aware there is a good solution to this.

• So like I've said in the past, we are testing a new version of TrueSkill (MMR) that allows us to "account" for your individual performance, but still requires the winning team to have the highest performance.

Chimera30 wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

radar3301enigma wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

radar3301enigma wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

eLantern wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

So now that MMR will be used instead of CSR, I personally think things will be a bit more confusing, seeing as how we will have no idea what our MMR is.

With MMR now being used, will the system be switched over somehow or will we at least be able to check what our MMR is that way we won't feel cheated somehow?

Also, I know I'm probably like two years ahead of myself, but will MMR or a similar system be used for the next Halo franchise game?

I believe MMR has always been in use or involved in Halo's Matchmaking since the development of Microsoft's TrueSkill system which dates back to 2005. Josh can correct me if I'm wrong.

Right or wrong. Nothing what I was asking got answered... but thanks for dropping some knowledge.

You had 3 items/sentences in your post.

1. You were told MMR has always been used.

2. Not applicable, due to the response in #1.

3. Why would Microsoft change now? To do so would cost a significant allocation of resources (i.e. money). So yes, they will use it in future franchise games.

All your questions got answered.

Chill out man, there's no need to be hostile. I don't see how your questions weren't answered. You claim that they arent, yet they have been. There are a lot of knowledgeable people around here that can provide answers who are not 343 employees or moderators. I never claimed to be any one of those.

If you didn't like the answers you were given, or didn't understand them, perhaps it would be wise to rephrase your question and approach it from a different direction, rather than attacking the people who are trying to help you.

I am chill. If i were being hostile, trust me, you'd know it. You're the one all over the place on this thread. Trying to take it over. I do appreciate it, though, but to rephrase myself, here i go again. Maybe this time I will hopefully be much more clear:

With MMR now being used instead of CSR, will the system show our MMR instead of our CSR that way we won't feel cheated somehow if for example like you stated we get a Gold v. Diamond match?

When will these changes take effect? I didn't see a time or date?

Also, I know I'm probably like two years ahead of myself, but will an MMR only system or a similar system be used for the next Halo franchise game seeing as how the current CSR system can be misleading in true-skill when matching up players/teams?

Edit: just for the sake of clarity, I'm talking about Ranked only, not Social or Warzone. I'm not sure if it makes a difference, though.

MMR has always been what the system uses to matchmake. As eLantern told you when you first asked this question, MMR is essentially the same thing as TrueSkill that was used in Halo 2 and Halo 3 matchmaking. As such, the system of showing CSR but hiding MMR will probably not change for Halo 5.

As for your second question, radar3301enigma was right: because MMR is already being used to determine matchmaking, there is no date when changes will take effect; MMR is already being used and has been since Halo 5 launched, so there are no changes to apply.

For your last question: Josh knows people are confused about the distinction between hidden MMR and visible CSR but has given no indication that they will will change things to make MMR visible in Halo 5 or future Halo games. At this point, it would be unlikely that MMR would be made the visible rank in Halo 5; for Halo 6, I suppose anything is possible. The most appropriate question you should have for Josh, I think, is why they use CSR as visible rank but use hidden MMR to determine who you match with.

On another note: if you feel someone was being non-constructive, the appropriate thing to do is report the post. Replying to someone and telling them they are not qualified to respond to you because they aren't 343i or a moderator is--in itself--not constructive, and also just plain wrong. Plenty of people have been following Josh's feedback threads since he returned, so they may have the knowledge to answer a question you may have just as correctly as Josh would. If someone replies and doesn't satisfactorily answer your question, just reply back and say something like "no, that's not what I meant. This is the information I want answered..." or something similar. Don't attack the credibility of another user; the last thing we want is to derail this thread.

D M4N8 wrote:

Chimera30 wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

radar3301enigma wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

radar3301enigma wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

eLantern wrote:

D M4N8 wrote:

So now that MMR will be used instead of CSR, I personally think things will be a bit more confusing, seeing as how we will have no idea what our MMR is.

With MMR now being used, will the system be switched over somehow or will we at least be able to check what our MMR is that way we won't feel cheated somehow?

Also, I know I'm probably like two years ahead of myself, but will MMR or a similar system be used for the next Halo franchise game?

I believe MMR has always been in use or involved in Halo's Matchmaking since the development of Microsoft's TrueSkill system which dates back to 2005. Josh can correct me if I'm wrong.

Right or wrong. Nothing what I was asking got answered... but thanks for dropping some knowledge.

You had 3 items/sentences in your post.

1. You were told MMR has always been used.

2. Not applicable, due to the response in #1.

3. Why would Microsoft change now? To do so would cost a significant allocation of resources (i.e. money). So yes, they will use it in future franchise games.

All your questions got answered.

Chill out man, there's no need to be hostile. I don't see how your questions weren't answered. You claim that they arent, yet they have been. There are a lot of knowledgeable people around here that can provide answers who are not 343 employees or moderators. I never claimed to be any one of those.

If you didn't like the answers you were given, or didn't understand them, perhaps it would be wise to rephrase your question and approach it from a different direction, rather than attacking the people who are trying to help you.

So just to make sure, CSR wasn't what was being used for a Ranked playlist?

Because I've seen some boosting accounts on a playlist like Doubles, for example, a Bronze that isn't really a Bronze (more like AT LEAST a Diamond) that is teamed up with an Onyx. This "Bronze" and Onyx get matched up against players like Golds and Platinums.

If MMR was really being used then why is this matchup even happening?

1. They are a party of two. That throws out the system matching them together on the same team; when a party enters into matchmaking with MMR all over the place, the game is only concerned with finding them an enemy team of similar average MMR.
2. The population of the playlist is low. This can result in the system expanding the skill gap it allows for matching people. There is a limit (I think Josh said it's something like 2 skill tiers, so if you search for a game long enough, you could end up seeing matches of something like Gold and Diamond). But population of the playlist definitely affects matchmaking quality.
3. Most of the time, when we talk about matchmaking, the concern is who you were matched against, not with. Right now I can't recall what Josh has said about the system when it comes to looking for people to put on your team, and how that works.
4. This is the least likely scenario, but it could be that the "Bronze" player's MMR is vastly above his CSR. If the "Bronze" player purposefully played bad to lose a bunch of games to lower their rank, their MMR could still be high but their CSR would be low, and since CSR is all you see, you'd have no idea they were deranking themselves purposefully until you fought them.

eLantern wrote:

I almost never play Infection so I don't know what the regular amount of XP that's handed out for that playlist, but Infection was the FEATURED social playlist this weekend and thus received the XP boost that was provided to featured playlists over the weekend so if you're making a comparison based on what you saw this weekend that's probably a major factor to consider.

radar3301enigma wrote:

Quote:

The system has millions of data points showing the relationship between Slayer and SWAT players.

Is that relationship something you can share? And is this relationship you are talking about, something along the lines of "you're a Platinum 1 in Slayer, so statistically speaking, you should be about a Gold 4 in SWAT"?

I'd be interested to know how I compare to the generalizations....

GratefulRelic60 wrote:

Any further news on the ranked season rewards? I would assume that the season is ending in a few weeks seeing as September is right around the corner and halo 5 has 2 month seasons typically. I know that the last time you brought them up you said that it is being handled by a team working hard on the next halo and that it had to be prioritized differently. But considering the season is probably coming to an end soon, should we see any news on it sooner or later.

ZaedynFel wrote:

We looked into the Rank Rewards we could offer and getting them properly awarded required work from a team that is currently devoted to the next Halo, so it had to be prioritized differently. If that changes, I'll let you know.

MstrMeeseeks000 wrote:

Josh, can you explain why we had to face this team four times last night?

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/4eee3136-281d-4fe0-9a76-406e8dbfff64/players/mstrmeeseeks000?gameHistoryMatchIndex=6&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=All

MstrMeeseeks000 wrote:

I figured that, but there was a significant difference in ranks, so it seems like there would also be a significant difference in MMR.
It's frustrating to me that now to get even matches you can't play with friends.

a Numb Thumb wrote:

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/4986aed9-4928-49d7-af4c-36afb1760b35/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=0&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena
So about that 1 tier thing. It doesn't seem to be working very well.

I actually lost CSR from that match even though I statistically played better than everyone and came in 2nd by 1 kill.

ZippySkippy wrote:

Hey Josh (ZaedynFel) I want to post something that is very concerning to me and a lot of other players. While it isn't directly related to what your doing it is tied to such. While I do like what you have done with the ranking aspect of the game there is still something that is very troublesome with the game. And that is the performance of the game. I still believe there is something causing the game to play slow and sluggish. And it effects all aspects of the game while playing it. This is not anything that is imagined or made up but something that is a root cause of may players grief. Let me give you a few examples of what is going on..
1) Sometimes the game will start out smooth and free but about 2 mins into the game it becomes bogged down and very sluggish and not very responsive.
2) Sometimes the game will start out very sluggish and smooth out towards the end. Just the opposite of what I mentioned above.
3) Things this effects when this occurs is as follows. Very sluggish movement, poor or erratic aiming, hit detection, rate of fire of certain weapons become unusable. Example would be the carbine. Basically when this sets in it effects everything about the game.
4) I also noted quite frequently is when a player gets dropped the game frees up and starts to play better. Which makes me wonder if the servers are struggling to keep full teams.
5) This seems to only effect one team while playing the game. And it doesn't effect all players on a given team but usually effects at least three of the players and sometimes the whole team.. So example would be at least 3 of the 4 are effected while sometimes the forth player maybe also. This leads to a very harsh match. I have played this with countless other players and we have experienced the same issues. This doesn't show itself as lag or anything of the sort. In fact most players will think there is nothing wrong when in fact there is.
6) Another thing I want to point out which I think is very important to finding the root cause of this is when you guys go in to make an adjustment or update to the game at which time you either refresh the servers or clear them of any cache or whatever, the game will play normal for a few days without any of the problems stated above. But this only lasts for a few days and the game slowly digresses back to a more sluggish play and all the things mentioned above start to set back in.

Josh I know this isn't directly your area but I do hope you could at least pass this onto the correct people to at least take a look at. I think it deserves at least a peek. Why I am bringing it to your attention is no matter how hard you make adjustments to the ranking it does you no good when there is a performance issue as to what I stated above. I have only given brief examples and touched on a few things so if anything else is needed please feel free to ask. Thanks for your time!
Zippy..