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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – August 21

OP ZaedynFel

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Quote:
The system has millions of data points showing the relationship between Slayer and SWAT players.
Is that relationship something you can share? And is this relationship you are talking about, something along the lines of "you're a Platinum 1 in Slayer, so statistically speaking, you should be about a Gold 4 in SWAT"?

I'd be interested to know how I compare to the generalizations....
Josh, did you see this, or did it get lost in some of the other posts? (It happens, I know.)
Yes, it learns relationships kind of like that.

I don't have those exact numbers on hand right now though.
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/4986aed9-4928-49d7-af4c-36afb1760b35/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=0&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena
So about that 1 tier thing. It doesn't seem to be working very well.

I actually lost CSR from that match even though I statistically played better than everyone and came in 2nd by 1 kill.
Yes, we had to expand FFA out to 2.25 tiers instead of 1 because none of our players outside the clamp were finding matches.

I graphed the failure rates and it was near 100% for them.

This is still an improvement over the 4 tiers FFA was before the change.

FFA needs more good players.
Josh, can you explain why we had to face this team four times last night?

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/4eee3136-281d-4fe0-9a76-406e8dbfff64/players/mstrmeeseeks000?gameHistoryMatchIndex=6&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=All
  1. Both CSR and MMR differences between the two teams are much less than 1-tier, which is the max allowed. So this is well within what the matchmaker will allow.
  2. You are both in parties. It tries really hard to find another party. You were probably two of the only full parties looking for a match around that time around that skill level. Parties aren't as common that low in skill.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Not sure if you deal with this, but are there any plans to redistribute the XP payouts in Social in the future? I think it's a bit messed up when I get more XP from an 8 minute Infection game without using a boost than I do from a 15-20 minute BTB game while using an XP boost.
I'll look into that.
Sylxeria wrote:
I'm just a little worried about how the 12-man WZ test is going to go. Warlords started off real hot and everyone seemed to love it. As time wore on, groups would begin to block each other to avoid having to face that team, and as a result the matching times began going up, people began visiting it less, and the playlist began losing its luster. If the WZ community can't get over this notion that they have to mass-block teams that they might lose to, then that's going to reflect in this test's data. Rather than see the test is failing because of the blocking that's going on, it would imply that it's failing because lack of interest. We'd be back to square one then, and those seeking a return to 12 man groups would have essentially shot themselves in the foot because of blocking other teams that are as good as - or in some cases, perhaps better - than they are.

From what I understand, it might not be possible to have teams of 12 exempt from blocking. Might not, but I'm not qualified to make any judgements on that obviously. Would there be any other way to keep blocking from ruining this though? Can it be disabled for a search if it's taking too long, like the search restrictions try and prioritize a certain criteria and if it fails to do so it begins loosening up?
No, it's not something we can expand over. It's handled completely outside of Halo, by Xbox. So we can only turn it on or off for an entire hopper.
HighMeLow wrote:
First, is what did the double XP weekends show as far as matchmaking quality data is concerned? Did it help playlists in any way, give it a spike in quality? As it been sort of the reason as to why they've been happening on most weekends? More people on, better intensive to play those playlists. And my second question is what is happening with rank rewards for this season? Last season was the last for emblems, and was wondering if we would see anything for this season. Or will it just reset the ranks and we'll have to do our placements like normal. Thanks again for the update, really appreciate it.
It's hard to directly correlate double XP with population. There are too many things going on. People going back to school, matchmaking parameters being tighter, it's the weekend, etc.

As for ranked rewards, I know they have a plan, but I don't remember the exact timing. I'm pretty sure you'll get something.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Sylxeria wrote:
...
No, it's not something we can expand over. It's handled completely outside of Halo, by Xbox. So we can only turn it on or off for an entire hopper.
By saying "entire hopper" are you referring to a single playlist or a matchmaking section such as Ranked, Social, or Warzone? ...or are you referencing all of Halo 5's Matchmaking? I assume you mean a single playlist.
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Sylxeria wrote:
...
No, it's not something we can expand over. It's handled completely outside of Halo, by Xbox. So we can only turn it on or off for an entire hopper.
By saying "entire hopper" are you referring to a single playlist or a matchmaking section such as Ranked, Social, or Warzone? ...or are you referencing all of Halo 5's Matchmaking? I assume you mean a single playlist.
Yeah, sorry, entire playlist.
ZaedynFel wrote:
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Sylxeria wrote:
...
No, it's not something we can expand over. It's handled completely outside of Halo, by Xbox. So we can only turn it on or off for an entire hopper.
By saying "entire hopper" are you referring to a single playlist or a matchmaking section such as Ranked, Social, or Warzone? ...or are you referencing all of Halo 5's Matchmaking? I assume you mean a single playlist.
Yeah, sorry, entire playlist.
Will it be turned off for the Warzone playlist during the trial period of allowing 12-man fireteams to match-make?
ZaedynFel wrote:
12-player Fireteam Warzone ...
  • 12-player fireteams would be restricted to only playing vs. other 12-player fireteams, for the time being. This is because our data clearly show that the current matchmaker can’t fairly match fireteams of this size otherwise. We are working to address this, but until then, this restriction must hold.
  • We would only allow parties of sizes 1-6, and 12 because our party restriction system can only restrict full parties, not partial ones. This is currently our only option if we want to do this at all.
...
Just out of curiosity would it be possible to allow the matchmaking system to pair 2 full fireteams of 6 together in order to match a full squad of 12 in order to improve the possibilities of a full team of 12 to match make?
eLantern wrote:
Will it be turned off for the Warzone playlist during the trial period of allowing 12-man fireteams to match-make?

Just out of curiosity would it be possible to allow the matchmaking system to pair 2 full fireteams of 6 together in order to match a full squad of 12 in order to improve the possibilities that full teams of 12 can match make?
  1. Maybe. I'm considering it if I can convince myself that most of the people that the non-full parties want to block are going to be in full parties anyways.
  2. No, we can't do that currently.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Tighter Matchmaking As part of last Thursday’s blog post we mentioned that based on community feedback and our own data, we decided to tighten matchmaking in the Ranked playlists. Instead of allowing matches within 2- and sometimes 4-tiers, we now only allow matches within 1-tier of your MMR across all Ranked lists.
Obviously not something you can implement in Halo 5, but what are your thoughts on handicapping systems - i.e. giving lower skill players point or ability advantages to help level the playing field?

It might make for a more fair fight when higher-level players or large squads can’t find matches and must be placed with smaller groups and those of us who are mere mortals.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Josh, can you explain why we had to face this team four times last night?

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/4eee3136-281d-4fe0-9a76-406e8dbfff64/players/mstrmeeseeks000?gameHistoryMatchIndex=6&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=All
  1. Both CSR and MMR differences between the two teams are much less than 1-tier, which is the max allowed. So this is well within what the matchmaker will allow.
  2. You are both in parties. It tries really hard to find another party. You were probably two of the only full parties looking for a match around that time around that skill level. Parties aren't as common that low in skill.
Thanks for the response. If matching a party takes precedence over matching skill, that's frustrating. My teams went 3-9 in HCS last night, lost 4 to that team and another 3 to a team with an unranked smurf that was raining hell on everyone. If playing with a party means I go 3-9 but going solo would have meant a better chance of a 50% win ratio, I guess I go solo from now on.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Tighter Matchmaking As part of last Thursday’s blog post we mentioned that based on community feedback and our own data, we decided to tighten matchmaking in the Ranked playlists. Instead of allowing matches within 2- and sometimes 4-tiers, we now only allow matches within 1-tier of your MMR across all Ranked lists.
Obviously not something you can implement in Halo 5, but what are your thoughts on handicapping systems - i.e. giving lower skill players point or ability advantages to help level the playing field?

It might make for a more fair fight when higher-level players or large squads can’t find matches and must be placed with smaller groups and those of us who are mere mortals.
A point-based scoring handicap is an interesting idea for the cases where the matchmaker has difficulty finding fairly balanced matches (outside the acceptable win probability). The system currently is tailored to allow a wider skill-gap range under an extended search time at the extremely skilled-end of the skill-based spectrum which knowingly allows unbalanced matches to occur for the sake of granting those types of players the ability to actually play the game; therefore, a point-based handicap system could be one method to help make these types of matches a bit more fair and enjoyable for all involved by basically adjusting the win probability back into a more competitively acceptable percentile manually. For example: In a Slayer match the "lesser" skilled team could be granted a certain kill count lead (depending on the handicap) over the other "greater" skilled team at match start which could offset the initial win probability being favored by the "greater" team by creating a new and acceptable outcome possibility that the system could see as being fairly competitive (in earning a win). I would say that this would definitely not become the norm for the majority of Halo's matchmaking as I imagine it'd only occur in very rare cases and likely only against full teams of extremely skilled players when other similarly skilled players (within an acceptable skill range) are not actively searching. Nevertheless, I think it could be helpful for the game-play enjoyment of those who end up getting put into a significantly unbalanced match by granting the players an opportunity to actually compete for a type of victory (ie. the outcome isn't extremely predictable). The difficult aspect of the point-based handicap concept is involved with updating player MMRs properly afterwards since it would probably require a lot of fine tuning to the TrueSkill system to account for the handicap influence on the match; plus, there'd need to be assurances that any player CSRs (Ranked playlists only) would be left mostly (if not completely) untouched by the match's outcome since it was a modified (aka exhibition-like) match. Nevertheless, this could also be seen as a type of method to help make full fireteam Warzone matches which tend to be very lopsided affairs more competitive too.

Worth mentioning is that I don't care at all for the idea of altering the balanced start in relationship to abilities or weapons that Halo's core game-play is (and should be) designed around which is why I give no support to any idea such as that.
Thanks for the response. If matching a party takes precedence over matching skill, that's frustrating. My teams went 3-9 in HCS last night, lost 4 to that team and another 3 to a team with an unranked smurf that was raining hell on everyone. If playing with a party means I go 3-9 but going solo would have meant a better chance of a 50% win ratio, I guess I go solo from now on.
You won't have that as the rule.

Party matchmaking just has higher variance. You'll get much bigger advantages and disadvantages, night to night. So it'll average out.

Solo you'll just have less variability. Less advantages and less disadvantages.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Tighter Matchmaking As part of last Thursday’s blog post we mentioned that based on community feedback and our own data, we decided to tighten matchmaking in the Ranked playlists. Instead of allowing matches within 2- and sometimes 4-tiers, we now only allow matches within 1-tier of your MMR across all Ranked lists.
Obviously not something you can implement in Halo 5, but what are your thoughts on handicapping systems - i.e. giving lower skill players point or ability advantages to help level the playing field?

It might make for a more fair fight when higher-level players or large squads can’t find matches and must be placed with smaller groups and those of us who are mere mortals.
Don't need handicaps. A person can just strap in and take the L or quit the match if they can't handle the competition.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Hey Josh (ZaedynFel) I want to post something that is very concerning to me and a lot of other players. While it isn't directly related to what your doing it is tied to such. While I do like what you have done with the ranking aspect of the game there is still something that is very troublesome with the game. And that is the performance of the game. I still believe there is something causing the game to play slow and sluggish. And it effects all aspects of the game while playing it. This is not anything that is imagined or made up but something that is a root cause of may players grief. Let me give you a few examples of what is going on..
1) Sometimes the game will start out smooth and free but about 2 mins into the game it becomes bogged down and very sluggish and not very responsive.
2) Sometimes the game will start out very sluggish and smooth out towards the end. Just the opposite of what I mentioned above.
3) Things this effects when this occurs is as follows. Very sluggish movement, poor or erratic aiming, hit detection, rate of fire of certain weapons become unusable. Example would be the carbine. Basically when this sets in it effects everything about the game.
4) I also noted quite frequently is when a player gets dropped the game frees up and starts to play better. Which makes me wonder if the servers are struggling to keep full teams.
5) This seems to only effect one team while playing the game. And it doesn't effect all players on a given team but usually effects at least three of the players and sometimes the whole team.. So example would be at least 3 of the 4 are effected while sometimes the forth player maybe also. This leads to a very harsh match. I have played this with countless other players and we have experienced the same issues. This doesn't show itself as lag or anything of the sort. In fact most players will think there is nothing wrong when in fact there is.
6) Another thing I want to point out which I think is very important to finding the root cause of this is when you guys go in to make an adjustment or update to the game at which time you either refresh the servers or clear them of any cache or whatever, the game will play normal for a few days without any of the problems stated above. But this only lasts for a few days and the game slowly digresses back to a more sluggish play and all the things mentioned above start to set back in.

Josh I know this isn't directly your area but I do hope you could at least pass this onto the correct people to at least take a look at. I think it deserves at least a peek. Why I am bringing it to your attention is no matter how hard you make adjustments to the ranking it does you no good when there is a performance issue as to what I stated above. I have only given brief examples and touched on a few things so if anything else is needed please feel free to ask. Thanks for your time!
Zippy..
Can you give me a link to a match where this happened so we can check the server?

Even better if you know what times into the match it was, but that's OK.
I've had several of these as well Josh. I can't remember which games though, but, it's bound to happen again. We'll be on the look out and reply back on this thread with the necessary details for sure.

We really appreciate your replies Josh.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Yes, it learns relationships kind of like that.

I don't have those exact numbers on hand right now though.
Ok cool.

On another note, as an experiment, I started timing how long it takes for me to find Slayer matches since Monday night. I was searching focused.

I don't have exact numbers right now, but I probably played probably around 40 or 50 matches. Of those, around 80% were around the 108 to 128 seconds wait times. Some outliers: only one was less than 30s, and 2 matches took 2m 48s, and 2m 38s.

Is my MMR just at the point where the population of player during the time of night I am on, isn't very high? Or they are just part of a team? Or is something else funky going on?
Is anyone working on the wz arc light core glitch?
Smackzzy wrote:
Is anyone working on the wz arc light core glitch?
Yes, the team is aware of that issue. No eta on a fix though
Josh I know this isn't exactly your area, but i really hope when they adjust the WZ req level up system, they post a much clearer breakdown of exactly how much level progression you get for various game actions/events. Considering leveling up is so critical in WZ, it's crazy that there's no official breakdown of how to level up!! Like how much do I get for capping a base vs killing a boss vs getting a kill vs killing a vehicle.

Titanfall 1 would show you how many seconds you shaved off your titan clock for every game action you took. How does halo 5 have nothing similar... ? Since a UI change like this is unlikely in H5, a detailed breakdown posted by 343 is critical.
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