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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – August 21

OP ZaedynFel

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ZaedynFel:

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/e8edfa07-b97c-4221-8e8a-ca544dba5e4f/players/radar3301enigma?gameHistoryMatchIndex=1&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

Is this another one of those "expected to play at X skill level" matches?

Also, is "normal" to qualify in at Silver 4, rise to Gold 3, drop back down to Silver 4, rise again to Gold 3, and start dropping again? That much of a shift so quickly doesnt seem right. And before someone asks, no, I'm not intentionally playing worse.

And, any answers to any of my other questions?
ZaedynFel:

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/e8edfa07-b97c-4221-8e8a-ca544dba5e4f/players/radar3301enigma?gameHistoryMatchIndex=1&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

Is this another one of those "expected to play at X skill level" matches?

Also, is "normal" to qualify in at Silver 4, rise to Gold 3, drop back down to Silver 4, rise again to Gold 3, and start dropping again? That much of a shift so quickly doesnt seem right. And before someone asks, no, I'm not intentionally playing worse.

And, any answers to any of my other questions?
There's Bronze, Silver, and Gold in that game and you're a Silver. So that's +/- one tier which is well within tolerance for the system.

As for the qualifying stuff, did that happen over the span of 3 games or over a range of games? Can you link the particular games it happened in?
As for the qualifying stuff, did that happen over the span of 3 games or over a range of games? Can you link the particular games it happened in?
I don't understand what you're asking... Over the course of 377 games, I started/(qualified) at Silver 4, worked my way up to Gold 3, then dropped back down to Silver 4, worked my way back up to Gold 3 (for the second time), and now, I'm on the downward swing again. Currently, I'm a Silver 5 (was Silver 6 last night). I think 377 games should be plenty enough for the MMR to "stabilize" around a more narrow range, not (seemingly) fluctuate wildly. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I can't link particular games, unless you really want 377 links...
As for the qualifying stuff, did that happen over the span of 3 games or over a range of games? Can you link the particular games it happened in?
I don't understand what you're asking... Over the course of 377 games, I started/(qualified) at Silver 4, worked my way up to Gold 3, then dropped back down to Silver 4, worked my way back up to Gold 3 (for the second time), and now, I'm on the downward swing again. Currently, I'm a Silver 5 (was Silver 6 last night). I think 377 games should be plenty enough for the MMR to "stabilize" around a more narrow range, not (seemingly) fluctuate wildly. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I can't link particular games, unless you really want 377 links...
Okay that clarifies a bit. I had a long day so I was reading your post as, "I was a Silver 4, lost a match, dropped to Gold 3."

If you're not consistently winning, your CSR will absolutely fluctuate up and down. Your MMR may be stable but we can't see that. But the only way to increase your CSR is to win. Losing will make your CSR drop.
As for the qualifying stuff, did that happen over the span of 3 games or over a range of games? Can you link the particular games it happened in?
I don't understand what you're asking... Over the course of 377 games, I started/(qualified) at Silver 4, worked my way up to Gold 3, then dropped back down to Silver 4, worked my way back up to Gold 3 (for the second time), and now, I'm on the downward swing again. Currently, I'm a Silver 5 (was Silver 6 last night). I think 377 games should be plenty enough for the MMR to "stabilize" around a more narrow range, not (seemingly) fluctuate wildly. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I can't link particular games, unless you really want 377 links...
Sounds like the symptoms of playing solo.
As for the qualifying stuff, did that happen over the span of 3 games or over a range of games? Can you link the particular games it happened in?
I don't understand what you're asking... Over the course of 377 games, I started/(qualified) at Silver 4, worked my way up to Gold 3, then dropped back down to Silver 4, worked my way back up to Gold 3 (for the second time), and now, I'm on the downward swing again. Currently, I'm a Silver 5 (was Silver 6 last night). I think 377 games should be plenty enough for the MMR to "stabilize" around a more narrow range, not (seemingly) fluctuate wildly. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I can't link particular games, unless you really want 377 links...
Sounds like the symptoms of playing solo.
I didn't even think to ask if he was plying in a party or solo. Good call.
If you're not consistently winning, your CSR will absolutely fluctuate up and down. Your MMR may be stable but we can't see that. But the only way to increase your CSR is to win. Losing will make your CSR drop.
FWIW: I have a 46% win ratio.

I didn't even think to ask if he was plying in a party or solo. Good call.
Yes, and no. What effect would that have?
If you're not consistently winning, your CSR will absolutely fluctuate up and down. Your MMR may be stable but we can't see that. But the only way to increase your CSR is to win. Losing will make your CSR drop.
FWIW: I have a 46% win ratio.

I didn't even think to ask if he was plying in a party or solo. Good call.
Yes, and no. What effect would that have?
Your win % is irrelevant, sort of. Once your placements are done, in order to rank up, you have to win consistently. If you beat people better than you, you gain more CSR. If you lose to people worse than you, you lose more CSR.

So if you placed Silver 4 and then you made it to Gold 4, you had a pretty good set of wins to get you there. Losing will set you back in CSR because that's how the system works.

Solo QQ'ing can be slightly more difficult to consistently win with as your relying on 3 other teammates. Playing with a team increases your odds of doing well since you know your team.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.
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As for the qualifying stuff, did that happen over the span of 3 games or over a range of games? Can you link the particular games it happened in?
I don't understand what you're asking... Over the course of 377 games, I started/(qualified) at Silver 4, worked my way up to Gold 3, then dropped back down to Silver 4, worked my way back up to Gold 3 (for the second time), and now, I'm on the downward swing again. Currently, I'm a Silver 5 (was Silver 6 last night). I think 377 games should be plenty enough for the MMR to "stabilize" around a more narrow range, not (seemingly) fluctuate wildly. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I can't link particular games, unless you really want 377 links...
I know you have already received an explanation about why this might be happening. I wanted to give you a little more perspective on what could be happening with your rank.

I looked at one recent day and not all total 377 games of course. You played 13 Slayer games on the 24th. You started at Gold 1 and ended at Silver 6. Lost 7, DNF 2, won 4. That really isn't that bad in terms of how far down in rank you went. In my opinion that is pretty reasonable.

One thing you can do to help you see how much you are gaining/losing is by viewing the details of an individual game. There you can see the actual number not just the progress bar we see in the game. The most important aspect of your rank is the rank of who you play against, secondary is how you perform relative to your team.


I don't know if any of that helps. I know it's frustrating especially if you are focused on ranking up. I suggest going solo, and only staying in one playlist for a good long while. I know people say that it is all about team, but it is my experience that I get the more balanced matches when I solo queue. And not jumping from playlist to playlist helps.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post spam.
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Got lagged out just before the match started! This happens way too often!! Fix your -Yoink-, this is ridiculous!!!! And it's going to rank me down a crap ton because of your freaking trash system!?!? Seriously!!!??? Fix this issue, it lags players out way too often and it's not my connection, I have a freaking great connection! Fix this crap!
You using the Voices of War pack? Doesn't matter how "freaking great" your connection is, that'll cause you to fail to load into games at times, especially if you're in a team for some reason.
Sylxeria wrote:
Got lagged out just before the match started! This happens way too often!! Fix your -Yoink-, this is ridiculous!!!! And it's going to rank me down a crap ton because of your freaking trash system!?!? Seriously!!!??? Fix this issue, it lags players out way too often and it's not my connection, I have a freaking great connection! Fix this crap!
You using the Voices of War pack? Doesn't matter how "freaking great" your connection is, that'll cause you to fail to load into games at times, especially if you're in a team for some reason.
Who needs stable connection and quality gameplay when you can hear your 10000 medals called out in different voices?
Sylxeria wrote:
Got lagged out just before the match started! This happens way too often!! Fix your -Yoink-, this is ridiculous!!!! And it's going to rank me down a crap ton because of your freaking trash system!?!? Seriously!!!??? Fix this issue, it lags players out way too often and it's not my connection, I have a freaking great connection! Fix this crap!
You using the Voices of War pack? Doesn't matter how "freaking great" your connection is, that'll cause you to fail to load into games at times, especially if you're in a team for some reason.
Who needs stable connection and quality gameplay when you can hear your 10000 medals called out in different voices?
Or hear Buck say literally anything at all. I love hearing him narrate my games <3
Oh man and he says some of the most scathing things about you when losing as the attackers in WZ Assault, I love it.
ZaedynFel wrote:
This may bring up a concern that how you play in one mode will affect your Rank in another. The answer is:
  • Only indirectly since Ranks are based on performance and not predictions
  • Only as much as actual real data suggests it should
  • Only initially and lightly since it trusts your actual performance in the mode over other modes once it sees enough
Despite your list of mitigations, I still feel like philosophically this is a bad move that conflicts with player expectation. Besides matchmaking, part of the function of a ranking system is to influence player behavior. You're role at 343 is analogous to a government official in control of economic policy. You want to incentivize/deincentivize certain player behavior. Doing something like this could definitely have a very negative effect in player decision making and experience. Playlists that they play with their noobier friends now have to be reconsidered as viable options, because they could impact their rank in other playlists. And while sure, your "actual real data" can tell you a lot about correlation between playlists, outliers will necessarily exist. And as long they exist, even just theoretically, that is enough to creep into a player's mind and affect their decision making. They start to second guess their ranks: "Am I ranked lower in Arena because I played some rounds in Swat the other day? I suck at Swat. That must have made me ranked lower..."

Just saying that no matter how much you scream those mitigating factors at the top of your lungs, the mere possibility of performance in one playlist affecting your rank in another is enough to negatively impact the mental model the player has when it comes to the ranking system.
As for the qualifying stuff, did that happen over the span of 3 games or over a range of games? Can you link the particular games it happened in?
I don't understand what you're asking... Over the course of 377 games, I started/(qualified) at Silver 4, worked my way up to Gold 3, then dropped back down to Silver 4, worked my way back up to Gold 3 (for the second time), and now, I'm on the downward swing again. Currently, I'm a Silver 5 (was Silver 6 last night). I think 377 games should be plenty enough for the MMR to "stabilize" around a more narrow range, not (seemingly) fluctuate wildly. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I can't link particular games, unless you really want 377 links...
Well sometimes this "just happens" and I think most of us have been there at one point or another, especially if your actual skill is changing along the way because improving at the game is not linear...
Some days, you play like the "new you" and other days you drop back down to "old you," and it can also vary based on the maps...
maybe your base skill starts at Silver, but you end up playing like a gold on a few maps, then a few more, then maybe you play like a platinum on 1 or 2 maps, despite still being silver level at other maps...

Depending on what you're playing that day, it can feel like a completely different ballgame for players in your skill range.
This becomes even more pronounced if you're taking any on/off streaks of days playing or not playing, as "acute skill" (aka difference between warming up or not warming up) can quickly go up & down..
Then there's also the additional factor of "when" you're playing. During the day, the skill level is a lot lower, and at night the sweats come out.

Anything from low gold to mid diamond is going to be the range at which all these factors compound the most to create a really inconsistent progression, as predicting the outcome/performance of both you & all other players in that range could be a toss-up depending on the particular factors of the individual matches.

Ultimately overcoming this mid-skill hump isn't linear, it's an up & down struggle until you finally get to the point where the "new you" gameplay fully takes over and you are able to carry your teammates to victory no matter what the other players in your skill range are doing.
This is how you get past a CSR tier: by carrying every game.. not by just "usually" doing slightly better than those around you.
That's why they always say "play with people slightly better than you" because it prevents falling back to old habits, significantly increasing the rate of progression.

Sylxeria wrote:
Sylxeria wrote:
Got lagged out just before the match started! This happens way too often!! Fix your -Yoink-, this is ridiculous!!!! And it's going to rank me down a crap ton because of your freaking trash system!?!? Seriously!!!??? Fix this issue, it lags players out way too often and it's not my connection, I have a freaking great connection! Fix this crap!
You using the Voices of War pack? Doesn't matter how "freaking great" your connection is, that'll cause you to fail to load into games at times, especially if you're in a team for some reason.
Who needs stable connection and quality gameplay when you can hear your 10000 medals called out in different voices?
Or hear Buck say literally anything at all. I love hearing him narrate my games <3
Oh man and he says some of the most scathing things about you when losing as the attackers in WZ Assault, I love it.
I just want the ability to switch between languages at will, without needing to change console settings.
Mexico announcer just sounds so hardcore for multi kills etc. and Japanese announcer is just fun.
It would be awesome if we could add that extra bit of variety whenever we want.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Is MMR cross-playlist? Or do you use it to inform the MMR of other playlists? No, we don’t do that. I have done this in other games and found it useful, but we don’t currently do it in Halo 5.
We do have a prototype we’ve tested against Halo 5 data that suggests we should be doing some form of MMR sharing across game modes but not necessarily playlists.
The prototype does two interesting things:
  • Has an MMR per game mode
  • Tracks how much each game mode is correlated with each other game mode.
Let’s say you’ve only ever played Slayer. This means you only have a Slayer MMR. But now, let’s say you go to play SWAT for the first time. Well, the system has millions of data points showing the relationship between Slayer and SWAT players and can then correctly construct a first pass MMR for your when you go into SWAT.
Not only that, but if you’ve played many game modes, it can correctly pull from all of them to form a sort of weighted-average that estimates where you should at least start in a new game mode.
Once you establish your actual skill in the new mode, though, this initial impression is swamped by your performance in the mode instead of looking at other modes.
This may bring up a concern that how you play in one mode will affect your Rank in another. The answer is:
  • Only indirectly since Ranks are based on performance and not predictions
  • Only as much as actual real data suggests it should
  • Only initially and lightly since it trusts your actual performance in the mode over other modes once it sees enough
I would like to offer up this game as an example of why I believe this prototype needs to be implemented alongside your plans for smurf curbing, and maybe even revisit the idea of a recommended SR level before entering ranked.

I have played 98 games of Team Arena. I started out as a Gold 5, and only just today was I able to land into Plat 1. Needless to say it is a bit arduous, and adding to that fact since I search solo. I do use a mic. I try to keep the team focused, but a lot of times that fails. I will admit that I fail a lot at times as well. I am not the one to carry a team. I will support whoever wants to carry. The Assist medal has always been my best.

Given all of that, I want to make sure that I communicate that I think that the matchmaking is pretty balanced lately. I have been fairly happy with how games go. There are a lot of close matches with the ability to come back from deficits.

My issue, the thing that sends me over the edge and sparks a feeling of futility, is the smurf and his buddies. The link I have added is a game where I believe this has happened. It doesn't happen often, but it happens and it is frustrating enough that I strongly believe the incorporation of both the SR mandate and the MMR cross mode usage is essential.

If you look through the profile of the player on the winning team, which is clearly a smurf account, and you continue on to further investigate you will see that this player by no means should be placed with Golds and Plats. The win % and KD of this player puts him at least an Onyx or Champ.

This kind of thing makes it so difficult for players like me to even want to play the game. Even though it doesn't happen very often it is just so difficult when it happens at such a crucial time in the rank process. I know this phenomenon may never have a real fix. I mainly just needed to get this out there. I was planning on playing most of the day, but this one game, the fact that I lost because of a smurf and his buddies, just really frakin' pissed me off. I decided to stop playing and take a moment. That moment has become hours, and then this post.

If there is anything to be done about this I hope that you find it.

In closing I want to clarify that there was a time last year that I played with a friend, in a ranked playlist he was an Onyx player, while he used a smurf. I did not ask for him to do that he just took it upon himself to do it, and the group didn't seem to mind so I didn't speak up. That was the one and only time that I actively played with a friend using a smurf. I probably didn't need to even say this, it happened so long ago and I don't play with those guys anymore, but I felt it needed to be said for complete transparency.
Oh believe me, top teams in Warzone always talk about blocking each other. Really, it kills the competitiveness. Sometimes we'd try to match higher fireteams and some salty person would have them blocked. I know you said you'd check on it/think about it, but I'm just confirming that most of the 12 man fire teams will consist of competitive people and a lot of the guys love dodging each other, which creates a chain effect in searching system. Everyone should match each other, and it's even better that turning the Switch off can be done for just a playlist. I thought it'd effect the entire game, which is great that it doesn't, because I've run into enough cheaters.

FFA could use some broadening in skill ranks, because population is feels low all the time.
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“Soon Halo’s reclamation will begin, but when it does, the weight of your denial will stay your feet, and you shall be left behind ”
Your win % is irrelevant, sort of. Once your placements are done, in order to rank up, you have to win consistently. If you beat people better than you, you gain more CSR. If you lose to people worse than you, you lose more CSR.

So if you placed Silver 4 and then you made it to Gold 4, you had a pretty good set of wins to get you there. Losing will set you back in CSR because that's how the system works.

Solo QQ'ing can be slightly more difficult to consistently win with as your relying on 3 other teammates. Playing with a team increases your odds of doing well since you know your team.
1. Yeah, I understand the CSR progressions with wins/losses.

2. See 1.

3. I don't know... I feel like I personally do better when I'm solo queueing.

DaxSeven09 wrote:
I know you have already received an explanation about why this might be happening. I wanted to give you a little more perspective on what could be happening with your rank.

I looked at one recent day and not all total 377 games of course. You played 13 Slayer games on the 24th. You started at Gold 1 and ended at Silver 6. Lost 7, DNF 2, won 4. That really isn't that bad in terms of how far down in rank you went. In my opinion that is pretty reasonable.

One thing you can do to help you see how much you are gaining/losing is by viewing the details of an individual game. There you can see the actual number not just the progress bar we see in the game. The most important aspect of your rank is the rank of who you play against, secondary is how you perform relative to your team.

I don't know if any of that helps. I know it's frustrating especially if you are focused on ranking up. I suggest going solo, and only staying in one playlist for a good long while. I know people say that it is all about team, but it is my experience that I get the more balanced matches when I solo queue. And not jumping from playlist to playlist helps.
1. Thanks for your input.

2. I'm not complaining, and that's a pretty reasonable conclusion to come to.

3a. I don't see an actual number for CSR gain/loss when viewing match details.

3b. Sure, I suppose I could view the source code for the page, but that's a bit of work. There's also the HaloAPIs, I could pull actual percentages from, but those are just percentages, not actual numbers (unless you're Onyx+).

3c. I understand that.

4. I'm one of those weird players that isn't that concerned with ranking up. I mean, sure, it's nice, but that really isn't my goal for playing video games where there are literally thousands of players better than me. I've recently started to go solo quite a bit, because I feel like for the most part when I'm teamed up, the matches are usually pretty sweaty...

Well sometimes this "just happens" and I think most of us have been there at one point or another, especially if your actual skill is changing along the way because improving at the game is not linear...
Some days, you play like the "new you" and other days you drop back down to "old you," and it can also vary based on the maps...
maybe your base skill starts at Silver, but you end up playing like a gold on a few maps, then a few more, then maybe you play like a platinum on 1 or 2 maps, despite still being silver level at other maps...

Depending on what you're playing that day, it can feel like a completely different ballgame for players in your skill range.
This becomes even more pronounced if you're taking any on/off streaks of days playing or not playing, as "acute skill" (aka difference between warming up or not warming up) can quickly go up & down..
Then there's also the additional factor of "when" you're playing. During the day, the skill level is a lot lower, and at night the sweats come out.

Anything from low gold to mid diamond is going to be the range at which all these factors compound the most to create a really inconsistent progression, as predicting the outcome/performance of both you & all other players in that range could be a toss-up depending on the particular factors of the individual matches.

Ultimately overcoming this mid-skill hump isn't linear, it's an up & down struggle until you finally get to the point where the "new you" gameplay fully takes over and you are able to carry your teammates to victory no matter what the other players in your skill range are doing.
This is how you get past a CSR tier: by carrying every game.. not by just "usually" doing slightly better than those around you.
That's why they always say "play with people slightly better than you" because it prevents falling back to old habits, significantly increasing the rate of progression.
1. Well, I do feel like I am improving. For one, I've definitely gotten a lot better with the Pistol, although there are probably still times when I could improve on Pistol Tactics. I do agree with you about the maps: some maps just feel like they play better, or maybe that's because I've played them more than other maps? Not sure...

2. Except for the weekends, I only play at night (USA). And occasionally, I'll play other games instead of Halo, but it's not very often.

3 and 4. No comment.

---

Snickerdoodles and Dax's replys got me thinking, so I spent the better part of the day learning the HaloAPIs and grabbing statistics from it:

Match Count: 377

Team: 65.78%, Solo: 34.22%
Wins/Ties/Losses: 46.42%, 0.27%, 53.32%
Team Wins/Ties/Losses: 45.97%, 0.68%, 53.32%
Solo Wins/Ties/Losses: 47.29%, 0.00%, 52.71%

Team Kills / Assists / Deaths / KDA / K/D (average per team match): 10.47, 4.45, 10.93, 1.02, 0.96
Solo Kills / Assists / Deaths / KDA / K/D (average per solo match): 10.97, 3.73, 9.91, 2.30, 1.11
Overall Kills / Assists / Deaths / KDA / K/D (average per all matches): 10.64, 4.20, 10.58, 1.46, 1.01

Placed 1st/2nd/3rd/4th on team: 22.81%, 27.32%, 29.44%, 20.42%

Granted, I may have missed a few team games, but overall, I perform (slightly) better solo.
3a. I don't see an actual number for CSR gain/loss when viewing match details.

4. I'm one of those weird players that isn't that concerned with ranking up. I mean, sure, it's nice, but that really isn't my goal for playing video games where there are literally thousands of players better than me. I've recently started to go solo quite a bit, because I feel like for the most part when I'm teamed up, the matches are usually pretty sweaty...
You know what I apologize. I got that numbers part wrong. I was thinking of the XP, and RP gained. All we see is another progression bar on Waypoint as well. It would be nice if we did see actual numbers.

That's part of the reason why I solo queue as well. Granted the matches can still be a sweaty, but my main thing is that the matches, in terms of skill, just feel more balanced. That is of course if there is no smurf in the lobby.

Snickerdoodles and Dax's replys got me thinking, so I spent the better part of the day learning the HaloAPIs and grabbing statistics from it:
Match Count: 377
Team: 65.78%, Solo: 34.22%
Wins/Ties/Losses: 46.42%, 0.27%, 53.32%
Team Wins/Ties/Losses: 45.97%, 0.68%, 53.32%
Solo Wins/Ties/Losses: 47.29%, 0.00%, 52.71%
Team Kills / Assists / Deaths / KDA / K/D (average per team match): 10.47, 4.45, 10.93, 1.02, 0.96
Solo Kills / Assists / Deaths / KDA / K/D (average per solo match): 10.97, 3.73, 9.91, 2.30, 1.11
Overall Kills / Assists / Deaths / KDA / K/D (average per all matches): 10.64, 4.20, 10.58, 1.46, 1.01

Placed 1st/2nd/3rd/4th on team: 22.81%, 27.32%, 29.44%, 20.42%

Granted, I may have missed a few team games, but overall, I perform (slightly) better solo.
Right on, I'm we got you thinking and you started checkig things out. Way to be proactive. I also get the feeling that I do better solo. Part of it is I probably put less pressure on myself to do well with my friends, but I am sure most of it is when I have played with friends in the past, their skill level is so much higher than mine, the match ups are pretty difficult for me. Don't get me wrong. I know that playing with better people will make you better, but they it is over the top better it's difficult to adjust.

Good luck in your queue! We may run into each other. We are around the same rank.
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