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[Locked] MATCHMAKING FEEDBACK UPDATE – FEB 20

OP ZaedynFel

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This is great dialogue - it's awesome that you're consulting the community and having this discussion. I know there will be some haters, and no matchmaking/ranking system is perfect, but thanks for trying to incorporate our feedback. Folks like me (I'm SR 150) have played this game for a minute ;-) and hopefully have useful insight for you.

FWIW, in most respects H5 is crazy fun, so all these comments are intended as constructive suggestions to make it even better.

To follow up on a few of the points you discussed:
  1. A concern that CSR and MMR seem to be too disconnected, except perhaps at the end of the season -- I really resonate with this concern. For me, the most fun thing about a ranking system is when the visible CSR/ranks are a truly accurate representation of player skill, and I play against a team ranked slightly higher than my team, and pull off an upset victory (I personally think it'd be awesome to see opponents' ranks BEFORE the game, so you know if you need to "engage sweat mode" and get psyched up). Because of short seasons, and the fact that CSR seems slow to converge to your true skill, I only get those "fun" matches at the very end of the season, and then the ranks reset again... So I get very little play time in that optimally "fun" period! I also find it frustrating to play with people whose visible CSR ranks seem "off"... either low OR high. So I'd strongly support making seasons longer, and/or making the visible CSR ranks converge faster to accurate values reflecting player skill. IMHO, we don't even need rank resets, now that de-ranking is a thing (but I may be in the minority there).
  2. You are considering incorporating individual stats into MMR/CSR calculations, but you currently only use W/L for MMR calculations -- If I understand correctly, you're implying that you could use your Halo game history database of CSR/MMRs and player stats, and use some kind of learning algorithm (e.g. regression) to try and develop an accurate skill prediction function to map our various in-game stats to our current CSR/MMR values, then use that function to EITHER tweak a single CSR value based mostly on W/L performance, OR display two different skill values - one based solely on W/L, the other based on that function. I do see the point of that idea. I think it could be useful in placement matches, games where players go 2-20, or games with unranked players whose CSR/MMR you don't know (all cases where the traditional W/L-based CSR adjustment may be less accurate). But I also feel that the more matches you play, the more your rank should depend (perhaps exclusively) on W/L results - because ultimately (as you've said), that's what Halo is about - and even if your skill prediction function based off game "performance" learns to down-weight other factors besides the "win", there may still be some inherent biases. Maybe the skill-based prediction function could be a method to prevent massive CSR loss after a loss where you tried to carry noob teammates, but not sufficient to gain CSR unless you can consistently help generate wins.
  3. Side note: I think stats like damage dealt, and dealt to which opponents (e.g. were you typically shooting their best or worst player), are also important for any skill-assessment algorithm to consider. It would be interesting for the H5 API to spit out that data too, so we could view on sites like halo5arena.com. First though, you guys should fix the damage dealt stat (if you haven't already). Sometimes it wasn't registering if you ended the game on a killing spree/frenzy.
  4. "The goal isn't to have [ranks] be equal in size, but to instead have the skill gaps between them be equal." -- that's a great point, and it relates to my first bullet. If I'm Plat 4, I should beat Plat 6's as often as I lose to Plat 2s (because both skill gaps are 2 tiers) -- and when that's happening predictably, that's when the game is most fun for me. During much of the season on H5, I do not feel like this is the case... perhaps at the very end of the season it's more true. Side note: I feel like the ranks in H5 are somewhat closely compressed... the data may not support my "feeling" on this, but it seems like a team of Diamond 4s will beat a team of Diamond 6s VERY rarely (like 1 in 100 times)... but my perspective may be biased. Is that the intent? Do you have any estimated numbers on what the expected win rates should be given some difference in team CSRs? I think it would be ideal to space out the ranks enough that a team Diamond 4s had a shot to beat D5s or D6s slightly more often (although it would still be improbable)
Thanks again for initiating this discussion.
I hope this stuff gets implemented soon. It's not motivating to continue to play when I'm already going up against champions running with fake bronze accounts in my placement matches.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Team Rankings vs. PersonalYes, I like the idea of having a Personal Ranking that moves based on individual in-game performance, and one that is based on winning. I would want these both separate and want to make it clear that the winning version is more important.

Keep in mind we don’t use Arpad Elo’s method for Ranks. We use something more advanced. We can integrate Kills, Deaths, Assists, Headshots, Objectives, etc., into your skills. We can also create a win-based one CSR separate from your individual performance-based one. I’m constantly evaluating which would be best for each part of the game.
Thank you.
Glad to see another one of these. Again all good changes. Very happy to see FFA addressed, even if it wasn't anything major.
can we address that playing against smurfs accounts than have lower CSR can make you lose a lot of CSR? Because getting spawn kill by platinum players under level 10 being you a onyx player makes you lose at least 20 points and beating them only can give you 15, plus the increase of smurf accounts can make you find a smurf every 2 matches
Here are a few of my suggestions: Is there a way to match teams against teams against teams? If so, please implement this.

If someone from your team quits in a ranked game, can you make where a loss will not count against your record? I can see this being abused, so this would not affect Fireteams if one member quits out to spare the loss for the other members.

I'm not sure if you have any control over this, but could you make ranked and social stats separate? I know this would stop many from stat boosting and stop people for trying to win all the time in social.

Thanks a ton!
Please tell me why my FFA never works?
I'm mainly a solo player or i play with a max party of 3 including myself.

What about social arena and warzone. Not everyone plays ranked and many would love social to be more social.

Will party restrictions or any fair mm search preference based on party size be added?

I miss the days when social was fun and not a sweat fest every game because the game does a bad job at matching teams vs teams.

Don't get me wrong, the 6 man limit has done wonders for solo players but a great 3-6 man team can change the tide pretty easily.
Really appreciate these updates.
2 things:
1) So did I read it correct that if I am gold one season and then rank the next season that I am most likely to be placed in silver? What if I go 10-0, 5-5, 0-10 in placement matches? Will I be Silver 6, Silver 3/4, Silver 1? Only reason I ask is I feel like every season I get to Gold in Slayer and every following season I re-rank in at Silver. Just confirms what I have personally seen.
2) Completely agree with either lengthening the seasons or getting rid of them altogether now that you can de-rank between tiers. As others have stated - I feel like I get to a place where I am supposed to be by the end of the season and am having the most fun/challenege playing against like ranked players only to have to go through the process all over again soon after getting there.
Have you considered XP payouts based on season placement? My biggest complaint is busting my butt all season for a rank, only for it to disappear and all I get is an emblem I'll never use.

This could work per playlist, so say, 50k XP per "Champion" rank, 35k per Onyx rank, 10k per "Gold" etc. These would stack, so at the end of the season you could have earned a decent 100k XP "reward". This would also encourage people to actually get rated in every playlist, and work towards a higher rank. All while providing a worthwhile "reward" as opposed to an emblem, which I doubt many people use.

As for "smurfing" I think the level requirement for ranked play is the best option, although is it possible to tweak it to where it is only required if they are playing with Onyx players? So to play ranked with an Onyx player you must be say, Level 50+? That way it doesn't penalize true noobs, just those clearly playing with a highly competitive/skilled player? Sure, people will "smurf" their way to Onyx 1500 if needed, but it doesn't let those players boost Onyx ranks, which is where it becomes an issue.

Just some thoughts.
Only problem is then is the people who have full SR ranking. Those few at 152, who may get it, are singled out. Then they get nothing. Just a "Hey, heres some XP you don't need! Thanks for ranking Onyx! See you next month for more XP!"
I like the idea, but there is a significant flaw to those who have ranked to the maximum level.
Have you considered XP payouts based on season placement? My biggest complaint is busting my butt all season for a rank, only for it to disappear and all I get is an emblem I'll never use.

This could work per playlist, so say, 50k XP per "Champion" rank, 35k per Onyx rank, 10k per "Gold" etc. These would stack, so at the end of the season you could have earned a decent 100k XP "reward". This would also encourage people to actually get rated in every playlist, and work towards a higher rank. All while providing a worthwhile "reward" as opposed to an emblem, which I doubt many people use.

As for "smurfing" I think the level requirement for ranked play is the best option, although is it possible to tweak it to where it is only required if they are playing with Onyx players? So to play ranked with an Onyx player you must be say, Level 50+? That way it doesn't penalize true noobs, just those clearly playing with a highly competitive/skilled player? Sure, people will "smurf" their way to Onyx 1500 if needed, but it doesn't let those players boost Onyx ranks, which is where it becomes an issue.

Just some thoughts.
Only problem is then is the people who have full SR ranking. Those few at 152, who may get it, are singled out. Then they get nothing. Just a "Hey, heres some XP you don't need! Thanks for ranking Onyx! See you next month for more XP!"
I like the idea, but there is a significant flaw to those who have ranked to the maximum level.
I have not ran into 1 Level 152 player, and the amount of XP to get there is beyond ridiculous. (Which is why this XP payout would actually be worth something). So it would effect probably .0005 of the population which is fine.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Number of Placement Matches- Yes please!!! I can't stand the placement matches and would just have it so everyone starts at the bottom and works there way up. I know at least 4 people (one my best friend) who flat out quit H5 because once they learned/saw that there ranked resets, they didn't want to bother doing it over and over and over again every season, and honestly I don't blame them. Why not use this type of system?

Worked well in H3 mostly... but you could always have some type of optional rank reset (after a certain amount of time) if a player hits max rank. Resetting there rank completely or maybe make there rank go down just a level (Champion to Onyx, Onyx to Diamond etc. Something like this) I'd also clearly show that players rank in THAT playlist too ( people like to show off their rank, that's why we're playing ranked lol) if someone reset their rank that should be indicated somehow but it should show the highest rank they've ever got in that playlist. I hope this makes sense.

I just feel rank resets aren't a good idea overall. I understand the logic behind them but I hear far too many people that stop playing or don't play ranked because they don't want to keep doing the "grind" back to there previous lost seasons ranked. I understand what I'm saying isn't going to be implemented into Halo 5 but I would think about this for future halos. For halo 5, I would most definitely lower the amount of placement matches.
Demotions- First off, I'm glad you can get demoted, it makes way more sense for numerous reasons! I honestly don't have a problem with how it is now but your idea sounds fine too.
Placement- I think this is not bad idea and definitely worth implementing I thin, but as I said in my previous post I think rank resets as a whole is more the problem. You said it yourself, how it's frustrating to get back up to where you were. A person feels like they wasted all that time before. I would say the majority of people do not like doing "the grind" every season. I do think lengthening the seasons would at least help in this area.

Shouldn’t FFA give a win for 1-3rd place?- Funny, personally I would make it you only go up if you were first lol I feel it's way too easy to get high Onyx or even Champion in FFA. Side note, in future Halo games can our rank titles be military rank names again.. we are the UNSC after all. Honestly what sounds/looks cooler to you? Being a Colonel, Brigadier General etc. Or being a Gold 1, Diamond 4, Onyx 1874 etc. ? Be honest now, lol I think the majority would agree that military rank names is better.
Not Using the Average Skill in Part- I do think Smurf accounts are a big problem. I see them lots. Some people have suggested things like you can't play team ranked playlist until you reach a certain level. This might not be a bad route to take. I don't know what the answer is but I definitely share your concerns and not using the average skill the party.
Team Rankings vs. Personal- OK this is a big one in my opinion and I definitely have concerns here. I know many people who want rank based off individual performance in team playlist. I have to admit, I don't agree with that. I firmly believe that Winning is Everything, it should be based off that... you are in a team playlist after all.

Once you start rewarding individual play in team playlists you are going to have MORE people who always want to get that power weapon no matter what and will even kill their own teammate to get it because they are now thinking of just themselves and not the team. Your saying that a person that only gets a few kills but does a pile of damage and has a ton of assists isn't as important as the player that gets 25 kills. Or that flag runner or that player who is holding the flag for 5 mins isn't as important as the player that kills 30 and gets more headshots. That isn't right on so many levels I feel. I'm glad you can incorporate other things than just kills though, that's a start.

This said, I understand why people want this and your idea isn't bad at all. I especially like how these things would be separated and I think they should be CLEARLY shown. That's important, I agree but you have to tread carefully in this area is all I'm trying to get across. You definitely don't want to start throwing a player under the bus because they say die more in a team objective game because it's there job to run the flag for example compared to someone who gets X kills or x headshots. Both to me are equally important hence I like the whole " Win as a team, lose as a team Moto"

Side note, I 100% think Ranked and Soical stats should be separated. This would help against people just trying to patent their stats and against farming.
Champion Ranks Rewards Follow-up- I 100% like the idea of the highest-ranked get something. I was personally I like exclusive stuff and in my opinion gives a lot of incentive for people to want to play, which is what you want lol I wouldn't even have a problem with making it so the ONLY way you can get that exclusive item (they have to be cosmetic only items) is by getting to that highest rank. If little Timmy complains because he can't ever make champion and can't get that weapon skin well too bad, that's life. People need to learn that you have to work at stuff to get things in life.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Can I tell how popular the playlists are?- I'll admit, I want to see the playlist population and the overall population of the game. I understand the concerns of not doing this though as well but still think I'd show it. Maybe you just show the overall population and not individual playlists. Just a thought.
Breakout Shotgun- Im not big on breakout, at all... Either version (old or new) I'll admit that right off the bat. I personally did like and played it more when you do have full Shields now than before as to me it feels more like Halo, but I really don't like shotgun as a secondary weapon.

This all said, I feel breakout is a waste of resources to be honest. It hasn't been received great just like Ricochet wasn't. I'd much rather you guys/girls put those resources/the time into something like Big Team Battle which you KNOW people love and it was CLEARLY was tossed aside in Halo 5. Not trying to be harsh here, just saying it how it is. You can't deny it wasn't a focus in Halo 5.

To me Breakout is something that should be released after the game is out and have the community try it to see what they think. It could come out the first month even, whatever. If it does well and is really popular (like how SWAT, Grifball and infection took off back in the days) THEN in the next Halo game you can focus on that mode more and have it in at launch.

In my opinion, trying something so new and different without the community even playing it is risky. Yes it can pay off, but more times then not, it doesn't. You'd be better off to concentrate on the modes you KNOW people like THEN introduced these new game modes later on and gage how the community likes them. You did this with Ricochet in Halo 4 and I thought that was a good idea. It clearly wasn't received well because if it was it'd be in Halo 5 at launch. I'm not saying don't take risks, but not giving the Community what they love off the bat and trying to "force" for lack of a better word, something new on to them is very risky and can backfire hard as your aware I'm sure.

Fun Facts- lolol nice ones!
This is kind of discouraging knowing that no matter how well I play in placement matches, I'll still be a tier lower than I ended the previous season with. I think if I finish the season as let's just say Diamond 4, if I play as good or better than I did at the end of the season, I don't feel like I should be placed as a Platinum. I understand that if I'm actually good enough to be in Diamond, I should be able to get back there, but I'd rather spend those few games grinding toward Onyx than just trying to catch back up to where I should've been. I knew there was some kind of cap on where you could be placed, but that doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, in Vetoed's Greatest Gunslinger series, he didn't even lose a game in all of his placement matches (and I don't mean lose as in not placing in the top three, I mean he finished 1st in all ten games) and he said he knew the highest he could be placed was Diamond 6, and he was right. That just doesn't seem right to me. I really enjoy grinding out the placement matches and seeing where I end up each season, but knowing that I pretty much have no chance of being placed where I left off, makes that grind feel kind of pointless.

I wouldn't mind seeing the season's lengthened a little. I know for a couple seasons they were labeled "Fall Season, Winter Season, etc) so I kinda assumed that meant the seasons would be about 4 months long to match the actual seasons. That would give you another month to grind and hopefully get more of those fun/challenging games that many have mentioned.
long time lurker wanted to post some thoughts on mm

Season rewards and ideas a few posts back I saw something about 4 matching against 4 being looked at.

First of all i'd like to premise that I'm a long time tournament player and these ideas reflect how we can use mm to build a better amateur scene for halo.
Right now the best way for a team to practice is via scrims or playing in the cups on the weekends. The problem with this is you need to know some good teams or have the time and know how to get registered in the cups. More on this later.

Biggest issue is that playing mm is not the same as going to a lan tournament besides the obvious things like best connection and looking at each others screens the glaring thing is its a best of 1 vs whom ever you match. I'm going to have lots of examples of other games in this post just because other games are doing it and would like to see halo implement it.

As stated before matching a team of 4 as a global thing is being worked on but to fix the issue of search times why not have a featured playlist with a determined window of time ala trials of Osiris in destiny. You match vs a team of 4 you play them in a series best of 3 winner plays on the more you win the better the reward. At the current state we are rewarding players in participation rather than skill. For example the skins that were just announced in the community update is a example of just what I'm talking about you are rewarded the skin if you match vs 343 by chance why not have some incentive if the people get the 9 required wins in row to get a different version of the same skin something that you can see in game where your like wow this player has this skin and is probably pretty good. Example of this would be a gold gun in overwatch they spent points awarded in mm to buy said gun.

Which brings me to this next idea. Besides csr why not have a different version of rewards that are not xp or csr but lets call it hcs points. For every win you get a point these points can be spent on a tournament playlist open for only a certain time you spend said points to enter this tournament you play in the same matchmaking as mention before teams of 4 plays teams of 4 duos match duos 3 plus 1 match vs 3 plus 1 etc. You have some skin in the game in which you earned during the season. You are rewarded based on your placing ala real tournaments you win real things that are awesome ala loot crates hcs t-shirts apparel. Or even tie in Spartan companies in this so we can see whom is the best ala halo 2 clans.

At the current state we have don't have rewards to give why not give people some incentive on choice like vaulted skins that you cant get anymore, or specific skins like a HCS mexico emblem or a HCS vegas or even free pass on some of the stuff on the Achilles armor for example 30 splatter kills.

Right now the biggest barrier to entry to the competitive community is signing up on a website and being available for at least 72 hours every weekend why not make it like the challenger ladders on league of legends or the hearthstone tiers where we are practicing the same way it is in tournament on the daily and to be rewarded based on skill.

best of 3 matches vs the same team is the key here playing a best of 1 vs a random set once is nothing like playing the same team again and figuring out what worked against the same team and what might work vs another.

This was done during the halo 4 global championship we had tons of rewards real ones for certain tiers of skill. Not all of us can be pros but all of us can feel just like them. HWC should be a community effort of playing halo on every level.

Also in current mm you can implement a way to make getting onyx a bit harder by adding a best of 3 before a promotion this is done in lots of games like league of legends killer instinct etc. Also will help get people used to a best of 3 format.

Before rambling more on this long post I'd like to end it here to get some feedback on these topics thanks
Have you ever considered placing a quit counter on a player's account that would keep track of how frequently they quit? For example, 10 times in X timeframe indicates a moderate quit rate, while 25 is a major quit rate, then use that information to match quitters with quitters? I thought this might be a pretty good solution. And it doesn't discriminate against bad connections or decisions to quit, since both mean you have a tendency to lower the quality of a game for other players.
I'll play the prideful guy by saying I try my hardest to never quit. I feel confident in saying I can count my H5 quits on one hand (not including disconnects). So should I be matched up with someone who has been banned for quitting? I feel like that's wrong, because it can create a snowball effect that results in me hiding alone until time runs out or they hunt me down enough times. Either way I usually want to stop playing immediately after.
No solution is perfect though. This wouldn't account for people who realize they are a problem and decide to change their ways. Maybe smarter minds could handle that :) hopefully it sounds like a good idea, but I've found my logic often doesn't fit with most people.

EDIT: since that may create a mess of longer wait times, maybe step back and at least avoid matching
those who have been banned with those who haven't? Eventually it would need to happen, but at least make it a last resort?
this is a very small thing but since shotguns are a loadout for breakout and infection can we get some skins for them. id love to see a nmpd skin, blood skin heck even a bright green one.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Team Rankings vs. PersonalYes, I like the idea of having a Personal Ranking that moves based on individual in-game performance, and one that is based on winning. I would want these both separate and want to make it clear that the winning version is more important.

Keep in mind we don’t use Arpad Elo’s method for Ranks. We use something more advanced. We can integrate Kills, Deaths, Assists, Headshots, Objectives, etc., into your skills. We can also create a win-based one CSR separate from your individual performance-based one. I’m constantly evaluating which would be best for each part of the game.
Has there been any talk of adding a team based ranked playlist for solo searchers?
Love these posts...hopefully the changes will be implemented soon. I'm a big fan of shortening the amount of placements for each playlist. Quitters ruined my placement in Team Arena to the point where I was placed in silver. I then ruined other people's placements by winning games by a large margin. I think that if placements were done quicker there is less chance of quitters ruining everyone's overall ranks which will be good for everyone.

As far as rewards for hitting certain ranks...Special skins or armor and having them trickle down over time is an awesome idea, and when there is lack of content, simply x amount of gold/silver packs + XP bonus would be great. Hopefully these changes come soon! keep the posts coming!

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What happened to eden or empire? When did those walls appear in the windows? I didn't see any news about it. Can someone tell me if they've seen any information on this? I'm trying to find out what else has changed.
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