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[Locked] MATCHMAKING FEEDBACK UPDATE – FEB 20

OP ZaedynFel

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Love these posts...hopefully the changes will be implemented soon. I'm a big fan of shortening the amount of placements for each playlist. Quitters ruined my placement in Team Arena to the point where I was placed in silver. I then ruined other people's placements by winning games by a large margin. I think that if placements were done quicker there is less chance of quitters ruining everyone's overall ranks which will be good for everyone.

Can definitely sympathize. I don't have a set group that I play with anymore and stupidly decided to do my placement matches in doubles solo. I'm not even exaggerating when I say that my "teammates" quit out of well over half of the ten placement matches. By some miracle I did manage to hang on and win a couple of those 2v1s, but I still ended up being placed at Silver 4 (just for reference, I'm platinum-onyx in every other playlist, even though I always search solo). So then, like you said, I wind up with games that aren't fun for either team in my opinion.
And also while ranking imo works fine when in a team, playing solo still is a quest best embarked with no ropes or guns in the house. Will the ranked lone wolf team arena playlist ever get here? I might be -Yoink-, but reminding me every solo game by having teams -Yoink- on me is frustrating at the least, there is no solo option besides FFA.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Aren’t people quitting because they don’t like the Map and / or Mode?For most playlists, there’s no pattern on which maps and / or modes people quit the most. It’s equal. This is the case in team arena. This means removing a map-mode combination wouldn’t make a difference in quit rates. Neither would vetoes because players are just as likely to quit the alternative as they are the vetoed map.
People are quitting because
  1. They forgot to leave matchmaking after their last game and now they do have to quit to get out
    (Take players back to the lobby after each game and make them actively start a new search if they want to play again. This would take care of many issues including rubber band boosters)
  2. They are little -Yoink- and quit because they
    • got killed
    • got killed too many times
    • think they are going to lose the game
    • any combination of the above
what do you josh and anyone else here abut team arena, does it have too few new maps/remakes,no classic halo game mode combinations since breakout was removed? I feel like team arena needs some modes suited with halo 5's mechanics,dont know bout assault in team arena,or Oddball(with the skull of course) that can be its oen test playlist for people to play(unless players have already tested it,then if players and pros tested it and liked it,it can be put in team arena.
ZaedynFel wrote:
PlacementSome of you have expressed the concern that you always start behind where you ended last season. We intentionally place you a bit back from where your MMR would place you. If you ended last season after just getting into the next higher rank, you will always fall back to the previous one and have to work your way up again. Two reasons we do that:
  • To require some time investment this season to earn your rank back
  • To prove to the system you deserve that rank
I understand this can feel frustrating if you fought all season for that final good rank. I think a good solution to this would be to make your last rank more rewarding. I don’t think that we can do anything about that right now, but I feel your pain. We may consider lowering the amount of investment we require to catch back up.
We may be improving the placement accuracy in the coming months, but not in the short term.
I honestly think the ranking system is quite bad. Seasons in particular. I read somewhere seasons were intended to keep players motivated - I find them the opposite when you get demoted every time and have to work your way back up only to get demoted again next season. I just don´t understand that at all, "to prove to the system you deserve that rank", I just did by reaching it! Just take an example from yesterday. I haven´t played the Arena Slayer playlist that much but a friend and I decided to do our 10 placement matches. The outcome had me a bit confused why I dug into this a bit. Going into this season we had the following prerequisites:

Player 1:Fall season: Diamond 2, 57% win with K/D 1.057
Winter season: 75% win (only played 4 games) with K/D 1.333

Player 2: Fall season: Plat 4, 50% win with, K/D 0.922
Winter season: Diamond 2, 83% win with K/D 0.770

Jan/Feb season after doing the same 10 placement matches together:
Player 1: 60% win with K/D 1.126
Player 2: 60% win with K/D 1.021
In those games we played many high diamonds and Onyx players and won some of those games.

So what rank did we get? Player 1 gets Plat 5 and player 2 gets Diamond 2. So player 1 gets a lower rank despite having performed somewhat better during those 10 matches as well as in the past with the exception of winning % in the winter season. I know playing some more would bring player 1 back into diamond but whats the point when he will be thrown back into Platinum again after next seasons placement matches anway.

Both players can compete with diamonds and onyx and matches them more than plats but player 1 still gets cemented into Plat every season after placement (seen it in other playlists too) and its really not motivating at all. Forget about seasons and just keep rank going up and down depending on if you win or not. At the end of the day it´s really the only fair way of ranking players. Not to mention these smurf accounts which just mess it all up.
ZaedynFel wrote:
PlacementSome of you have expressed the concern that you always start behind where you ended last season. We intentionally place you a bit back from where your MMR would place you. If you ended last season after just getting into the next higher rank, you will always fall back to the previous one and have to work your way up again. Two reasons we do that:
  • To require some time investment this season to earn your rank back
  • To prove to the system you deserve that rank
I understand this can feel frustrating if you fought all season for that final good rank. I think a good solution to this would be to make your last rank more rewarding. I don’t think that we can do anything about that right now, but I feel your pain. We may consider lowering the amount of investment we require to catch back up.
We may be improving the placement accuracy in the coming months, but not in the short term.
I honestly think the ranking system is quite bad. Seasons in particular. I read somewhere seasons were intended to keep players motivated - I find them the opposite when you get demoted every time and have to work your way back up only to get demoted again next season. I just don´t understand that at all, "to prove to the system you deserve that rank", I just did by reaching it! Just take an example from yesterday. I haven´t played the Arena Slayer playlist that much but a friend and I decided to do our 10 placement matches. The outcome had me a bit confused why I dug into this a bit. Going into this season we had the following prerequisites:

Player 1:Fall season: Diamond 2, 57% win with K/D 1.057
Winter season: 75% win (only played 4 games) with K/D 1.333

Player 2: Fall season: Plat 4, 50% win with, K/D 0.922
Winter season: Diamond 2, 83% win with K/D 0.770

Jan/Feb season after doing the same 10 placement matches together:
Player 1: 60% win with K/D 1.126
Player 2: 60% win with K/D 1.021
In those games we played many high diamonds and Onyx players and won some of those games.

So what rank did we get? Player 1 gets Plat 5 and player 2 gets Diamond 2. So player 1 gets a lower rank despite having performed somewhat better during those 10 matches as well as in the past with the exception of winning % in the winter season. I know playing some more would bring player 1 back into diamond but whats the point when he will be thrown back into Platinum again after next seasons placement matches anway.

Both players can compete with diamonds and onyx and matches them more than plats but player 1 still gets cemented into Plat every season after placement (seen it in other playlists too) and its really not motivating at all. Forget about seasons and just keep rank going up and down depending on if you win or not. At the end of the day it´s really the only fair way of ranking players. Not to mention these smurf accounts which just mess it all up.
Finishing your Winter Season placement matches would of likely placed P1 in Diamond along P2 so the fault there is his\her own. Also the challenge to Ranked is try climb the ranks as high as possible so even if you hit Onyx in this season the highest you could rank after 10 games in the next season is Diamond 6 I believe. This makes it fair in my opinion as reaching a rank doesnt mean you deserve it but be able to maintain your rank does as many Champion players know peoples CSR can catch up and knock them off the leaderboard. Were as many player like to just grind to a desired rank and never touch the playlist again for the rest of the season so in a sense the system works, as only the most skilled and highly competitive players like RSPCT Vetoed NADED and likeminded players will achieve and maintain those higher ranks, while casual and less skilled players that lack determination will remain in Bronze to Diamond.

(Unrelated to your post but personally I feel there are far too many Onyx players that reached their rank and just leave the playlist while clogging up the CSR leaderboards becoming a unless obstacle slow peoples progress to Champion Rank. Perhaps 343 could implement a derank penalty to these players as they have no wish to attain Champion rank, like if your inactive in that playlist for a week you're deranked to Diamond 6, allowing actual competitive players to continue their progress? Just my thoughts)
I have never heard someone complain "why don't I outrank with higher w/l ratio."
The complaint is "why am does w/l out weigh prefomance?" we've enough coat tail riders who are onyx
I noted with regret that you did not fix nor is your intention to do so, the terrible gap that exists between the European players and those Americans, American players have an advantage of 1-2 seconds compared to European players because of the connection and in the case of competing against the Americans meeting takes place on American servers. This is unfair and unacceptable. Everyone should play on equal terms, without the advantage of connecting from a particular part of the world.

What's more, even the South Americans have an advantage in matchmaking against European players, due to the closer proximity to the united states. 2/3 of the world population of Halo 5 have a huge and unfair advantage against European players. Europe has much greater population of the United States, we claim the right consideration!
ZaedynFel wrote:
PlacementSome of you have expressed the concern that you always start behind where you ended last season. We intentionally place you a bit back from where your MMR would place you. If you ended last season after just getting into the next higher rank, you will always fall back to the previous one and have to work your way up again. Two reasons we do that:
  • To require some time investment this season to earn your rank back
  • To prove to the system you deserve that rank
I understand this can feel frustrating if you fought all season for that final good rank. I think a good solution to this would be to make your last rank more rewarding. I don’t think that we can do anything about that right now, but I feel your pain. We may consider lowering the amount of investment we require to catch back up.
We may be improving the placement accuracy in the coming months, but not in the short term.
I honestly think the ranking system is quite bad. Seasons in particular. I read somewhere seasons were intended to keep players motivated - I find them the opposite when you get demoted every time and have to work your way back up only to get demoted again next season. I just don´t understand that at all, "to prove to the system you deserve that rank", I just did by reaching it! Just take an example from yesterday. I haven´t played the Arena Slayer playlist that much but a friend and I decided to do our 10 placement matches. The outcome had me a bit confused why I dug into this a bit. Going into this season we had the following prerequisites:

Player 1:Fall season: Diamond 2, 57% win with K/D 1.057
Winter season: 75% win (only played 4 games) with K/D 1.333

Player 2: Fall season: Plat 4, 50% win with, K/D 0.922
Winter season: Diamond 2, 83% win with K/D 0.770

Jan/Feb season after doing the same 10 placement matches together:
Player 1: 60% win with K/D 1.126
Player 2: 60% win with K/D 1.021
In those games we played many high diamonds and Onyx players and won some of those games.

So what rank did we get? Player 1 gets Plat 5 and player 2 gets Diamond 2. So player 1 gets a lower rank despite having performed somewhat better during those 10 matches as well as in the past with the exception of winning % in the winter season. I know playing some more would bring player 1 back into diamond but whats the point when he will be thrown back into Platinum again after next seasons placement matches anway.

Both players can compete with diamonds and onyx and matches them more than plats but player 1 still gets cemented into Plat every season after placement (seen it in other playlists too) and its really not motivating at all. Forget about seasons and just keep rank going up and down depending on if you win or not. At the end of the day it´s really the only fair way of ranking players. Not to mention these smurf accounts which just mess it all up.
Finishing your Winter Season placement matches would of likely placed P1 in Diamond along P2 so the fault there is his\her own. Also the challenge to Ranked is try climb the ranks as high as possible so even if you hit Onyx in this season the highest you could rank after 10 games in the next season is Diamond 6 I believe. This makes it fair in my opinion as reaching a rank doesnt mean you deserve it but be able to maintain your rank does as many Champion players know peoples CSR can catch up and knock them off the leaderboard. Were as many player like to just grind to a desired rank and never touch the playlist again for the rest of the season so in a sense the system works, as only the most skilled and highly competitive players like RSPCT Vetoed NADED and likeminded players will achieve and maintain those higher ranks, while casual and less skilled players that lack determination will remain in Bronze to Diamond.

(Unrelated to your post but personally I feel there are far too many Onyx players that reached their rank and just leave the playlist while clogging up the CSR leaderboards becoming a unless obstacle slow peoples progress to Champion Rank. Perhaps 343 could implement a derank penalty to these players as they have no wish to attain Champion rank, like if your inactive in that playlist for a week you're deranked to Diamond 6, allowing actual competitive players to continue their progress? Just my thoughts)
I see some of your points but this becomes not so much a matter of skill rank as awarding the grind. The system fails to catch skill well. Plus this also shows the inherent flaw in the whole setup that there must be a global rank of all players that brings along a lot a different issues with it. Cool for champs, they can claim to be the best in the world and they are, but everyone else pays a price for that type of global absolute rank. The points you bring up are actually flaws of the system. And everyone knows these ranks are messed up anyways. I have seen onyx players who have been boosted there who are natural bronze and silver players - I looked at one individuals service record yesterday. Bronze and silver in Team Arena several seasons but boosted to Onyx in slayer. I checked because we matched a smurf account that was used to boost the silver/bronze guy and the booster was smashing onyx opponents too. In the meantime a legit player gets screwed over by opponents tampering with the system and by 343i because they can´t catch skill well enough.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Forget about seasons and just keep rank going up and down depending on if you win or not. At the end of the day it´s really the only fair way of ranking players. Not to mention these smurf accounts which just mess it all up.
I'm not sure if this would even work, but I wish there was a way to make seasons an opt-in or opt-out feature. I personally love seasons, but I can definitely understand why a lot of people don't. It'd even be nice if an opt-in/out feature was available on a playlist to playlist basis. I mean like right now, I'm currently at Onyx 1526 in FFA, but I know that'll reset next week and I'll be back in Diamond or Platinum depending on how the placements go. Part of me wishes that particular rank wouldn't reset and I could continue to grind my way through Onyx. I always like the idea of a fresh start and trying to grind those placement matches to try to improve my rank. Of course, if I read the post correctly where you're almost always put in the rank tier below where you finished the season, that grind even feels pointless. I don't really know how I feel about it anymore.
@HiTechRedneck3
"Of course, if I read the post correctly where you're almost always put in the rank tier below where you finished the season, that grind even feels pointless. I don't really know how I feel about it anymore."

That exactly. Not motivating at all, frustrating, discouraging and feels utterly pointless when the system works against you in that way. I cannot see why that would be a good thing.

ZaedynFel wrote:
Breakout ShotgunI’ve read a few concerns about starting with shotguns in breakout. First, keep in mind my primary design role isn’t weapon and mode balancing, so I’ll listen to your comments but I won’t personally argue the merits either way. My understanding of why we have shotguns is to increase lethality now that we have shields. So like the original breakout, a player still has a chance of winning 1v3, etc. whereas that would be much harder with the standard loadout.
So the shotgun is there because shields were added, but why then were shields added? Modern Breakout feels like 343I was trying to fix what wasn't broken. I loved classic Breakout. It was one of the only ranked games I played because it was new and exciting. Nowadays I get unplaced teammates running in and getting themselves destroyed by camping shotgunners and teammates camping with their shotguns waiting for the enemy team to run in and get blasted. The addition of the radar was yet another bandaid put on a non-existing wound. As long as players can be seen on radar the lesser skilled players relying on their shotguns are sneaking around at a speed susceptible to losing the objective or being unable to protect teammates. The problem with modern breakout, however, is not these newer players relying solely on their shotguns and ignoring the objective. Classic Breakout had poor players too, but they would sooner die trying to get a kill than drag the team down by hunkering down. The real problem is that you've given the players in Breakout a tool set that feeds too heavily into bad habits. Good players will always use their magnums, be mobile, group up, play the objective, grab weapons, etc. but poor players have already spawned with a 1-shot kill weapon and enough health to win a close encounter as long as they land the first shot, then the aforementioned radar dilemma makes this worse 2-fold. It's a fundamentally poor system. I think 343I put too much thought into changing the gametype than trying to improve it. 1v3s aren't a problem to smart players who grab weapons and use the map, at least, it wouldn't be if there were no radars. The element of surprise is harder to use and the element of stealth is only present in shotgunning campers. Swap shotguns with SMGs and remove radar, then Breakout will be less encouraging of poor playstyles and more enjoyable for skilled players.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Aren’t people quitting because they don’t like the Map and / or Mode?For most playlists, there’s no pattern on which maps and / or modes people quit the most. It’s equal. This is the case in team arena. This means removing a map-mode combination wouldn’t make a difference in quit rates. Neither would vetoes because players are just as likely to quit the alternative as they are the vetoed map.
People are quitting because
  1. They forgot to leave matchmaking after their last game and now they do have to quit to get out
    (Take players back to the lobby after each game and make them actively start a new search if they want to play again. This would take care of many issues including rubber band boosters)
  2. They are little -Yoink- and quit because they
    • got killed
    • got killed too many times
    • think they are going to lose the game
    • any combination of the above
I agree. Placement matches would be more enjoyable if 1-2 players on my team wouldn't quit at the start. As ZaedynFel said, most casual players are only there for a taste. They played their match, didn't enjoy it and left without backing out of the matchmaking queue, leaving their team to fight unevenly matched. Also, the presence of a temporary ban won't stop someone who'd already done playing. Forcing players to the ranked menu upon ending a ranked match will prevent a lot of teammates from leaving matches early and will make ranked placement matches and ranked as a whole much more enjoyable.
Has anyone been playing with people who are ranked higher then you? I know that I keep getting that. I just wanted to play a game of swat that I don't play and is unranked and we lost to two platinums and one diamond. I just want to play slayer without playing against a plat. What has happened to Halo 5 after our recent update, I have to start playing in social which is more fair. Why do I keep playing with people that are a higher rank?
Has anyone been playing with people who are ranked higher then you? I know that I keep getting that. I just wanted to play a game of swat that I don't play and is unranked and we lost to two platinums and one diamond. I just want to play slayer without playing against a plat. What has happened to Halo 5 after our recent update, I have to start playing in social which is more fair. Why do I keep playing with people that are a higher rank?
It's definitely not just you. Last night I had a game of Slayer where I was a Good 6 and there was a Diamond and Onyx 1700 on the opposing team. I can understand matching players who are, say, one rank tier above you, I mean, one of the best ways I've found to get better is to play against people who are better than you, however, I don't think a Gold vs Onyx matchup should ever happen. i know they said there's a difference between the points that more accurately represent your skill and the visual (Gold, Platinum, etc)representations, but that just seems like a really big gap. I mean there are two full rank tiers between Gold and Onyx, if my more accurate skill is closer to that leve (or as an Onyx, their skill is actually closer to Gold) then the visual representations of our ranks must be wildly inaccurate.
Has anyone been playing with people who are ranked higher then you? I know that I keep getting that. I just wanted to play a game of swat that I don't play and is unranked and we lost to two platinums and one diamond. I just want to play slayer without playing against a plat. What has happened to Halo 5 after our recent update, I have to start playing in social which is more fair. Why do I keep playing with people that are a higher rank?
To be honest bro Plats are genrally average players, and since your unranked the system will place you against players of various skill levels in order to determine what rank you are placed in, from there it will place you against equally skilled players, until then the system has no idea of what players you should face to gave you a well balanced match.
Has anyone been playing with people who are ranked higher then you? I know that I keep getting that. I just wanted to play a game of swat that I don't play and is unranked and we lost to two platinums and one diamond. I just want to play slayer without playing against a plat. What has happened to Halo 5 after our recent update, I have to start playing in social which is more fair. Why do I keep playing with people that are a higher rank?
It's definitely not just you. Last night I had a game of Slayer where I was a Good 6 and there was a Diamond and Onyx 1700 on the opposing team. I can understand matching players who are, say, one rank tier above you, I mean, one of the best ways I've found to get better is to play against people who are better than you, however, I don't think a Gold vs Onyx matchup should ever happen. i know they said there's a difference between the points that more accurately represent your skill and the visual (Gold, Platinum, etc)representations, but that just seems like a really big gap. I mean there are two full rank tiers between Gold and Onyx, if my more accurate skill is closer to that leve (or as an Onyx, their skill is actually closer to Gold) then the visual representations of our ranks must be wildly inaccurate.
This sound like a case of boosting or smurfing, there is only 2 ways a match up like that should happen:

-The Onyx player is partied up with somone of around the rank of Silver in order to play easier games, or,

-The Onyx player has been carried to his rank and is actually playing at the level of Gold tier player.
Has anyone been playing with people who are ranked higher then you? I know that I keep getting that. I just wanted to play a game of swat that I don't play and is unranked and we lost to two platinums and one diamond. I just want to play slayer without playing against a plat. What has happened to Halo 5 after our recent update, I have to start playing in social which is more fair. Why do I keep playing with people that are a higher rank?
It's definitely not just you. Last night I had a game of Slayer where I was a Good 6 and there was a Diamond and Onyx 1700 on the opposing team. I can understand matching players who are, say, one rank tier above you, I mean, one of the best ways I've found to get better is to play against people who are better than you, however, I don't think a Gold vs Onyx matchup should ever happen. i know they said there's a difference between the points that more accurately represent your skill and the visual (Gold, Platinum, etc)representations, but that just seems like a really big gap. I mean there are two full rank tiers between Gold and Onyx, if my more accurate skill is closer to that leve (or as an Onyx, their skill is actually closer to Gold) then the visual representations of our ranks must be wildly inaccurate.
This sound like a case of boosting or smurfing, there is only 2 ways a match up like that should happen:

-The Onyx player is partied up with somone of around the rank of Silver in order to play easier games, or,

-The Onyx player has been carried to his rank and is actually playing at the level of Gold tier player.
I remember playing a game were I was in a group of golds vs a group of platinums.
Has anyone been playing with people who are ranked higher then you? I know that I keep getting that. I just wanted to play a game of swat that I don't play and is unranked and we lost to two platinums and one diamond. I just want to play slayer without playing against a plat. What has happened to Halo 5 after our recent update, I have to start playing in social which is more fair. Why do I keep playing with people that are a higher rank?
It's definitely not just you. Last night I had a game of Slayer where I was a Good 6 and there was a Diamond and Onyx 1700 on the opposing team. I can understand matching players who are, say, one rank tier above you, I mean, one of the best ways I've found to get better is to play against people who are better than you, however, I don't think a Gold vs Onyx matchup should ever happen. i know they said there's a difference between the points that more accurately represent your skill and the visual (Gold, Platinum, etc)representations, but that just seems like a really big gap. I mean there are two full rank tiers between Gold and Onyx, if my more accurate skill is closer to that leve (or as an Onyx, their skill is actually closer to Gold) then the visual representations of our ranks must be wildly inaccurate.
This sound like a case of boosting or smurfing, there is only 2 ways a match up like that should happen:

-The Onyx player is partied up with somone of around the rank of Silver in order to play easier games, or,

-The Onyx player has been carried to his rank and is actually playing at the level of Gold tier player.
I remember playing a game were I was in a group of golds vs a group of platinums.
Gold and Platinum dont differ much in skill tbh, thats something that tends to happen a lot i remember. when i rank G4 an went against a team of plats with 2 golds an a silver on my team i came out with most kills an still won, so a gold vs plat match up isnt that bad. But Gold vs Onyx is a stupid match up caused by the reasons i stated before.
Has anyone been playing with people who are ranked higher then you? I know that I keep getting that. I just wanted to play a game of swat that I don't play and is unranked and we lost to two platinums and one diamond. I just want to play slayer without playing against a plat. What has happened to Halo 5 after our recent update, I have to start playing in social which is more fair. Why do I keep playing with people that are a higher rank?
It's definitely not just you. Last night I had a game of Slayer where I was a Good 6 and there was a Diamond and Onyx 1700 on the opposing team. I can understand matching players who are, say, one rank tier above you, I mean, one of the best ways I've found to get better is to play against people who are better than you, however, I don't think a Gold vs Onyx matchup should ever happen. i know they said there's a difference between the points that more accurately represent your skill and the visual (Gold, Platinum, etc)representations, but that just seems like a really big gap. I mean there are two full rank tiers between Gold and Onyx, if my more accurate skill is closer to that leve (or as an Onyx, their skill is actually closer to Gold) then the visual representations of our ranks must be wildly inaccurate.
This sound like a case of boosting or smurfing, there is only 2 ways a match up like that should happen:

-The Onyx player is partied up with somone of around the rank of Silver in order to play easier games, or,

-The Onyx player has been carried to his rank and is actually playing at the level of Gold tier player.
I remember playing a game were I was in a group of golds vs a group of platinums.
Thats due to what happens underneath the hood of the H5 MM system. MMR changes faster than CSR and is what is used to get the most fair matchmade games. The golds have probably increased their MMR faster than their CSR and the plats might have lowered theirs and be on their way towards gold unless they can turn the trend around and start winning more. The visual representation of rank is gold vs plat but their MMR scores may be much closer. And one rank tier difference is normally not a big deal really.
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