Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – July 10

OP ZaedynFel

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Party Matchmaking

I mentioned a month or so ago that we were close to releasing a temporary stopgap feature for party matchmaking. This feature is now live.

The new feature has full Fireteams try to only matchmake with full fireteams for around 2-3 minutes before giving up and letting them match with non-full parties.

However, if a full fireteam doesn’t search Focused, they can still match with non-full fireteams that have already waited 2-3 minutes.

In addition, if a non-full fireteam does not search Focused, a full fireteam can match with them after the Fireteam has waited 2-3 minutes, even immediately.

To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.


Onyx Solo Matchmaking with Party Restriction Enabled

With the new fireteam restriction enabled, solo-queueing Onyx players are starting to see Plats and even Golds in their matches. This is a side-effect of enforcing full fireteam matchmaking. Most Onyx players are in parties, so removing them from the available pool is pushing solo Onyx players into matches with lower-skilled players. The team balancing should still result in relatively even teams, but with some wide skill gaps.

Basically, we’ve traded solo Onyx players matching against organized to4 Onyx players for solo Onyx players playing with Platinum / high-Gold players.


Here are some options on how we could address this:

  • Leave it as is: Players can back out early manually if they want to avoid lower-skilled players, allowing those players who don’t care to still find matches.
  • Turn off party restrictions: We could do this quickly. Though this would result in solo queueing players matching against to4 again, but at least they usually would all be Onyx.
  • Tighten the allowable MMR gap. This would prevent Onyx from seeing Gold, but lead to much longer wait times, restarting the search a few times for Onyx players to find each other. It would also mean that Onyx players who don’t care would have to wait longer. Though if they searched Balanced it will alleviate that somewhat. We may try this first
  • Allow longer search times: This would take a bit longer to do, but it is something we have on the table. The problem is, there wouldn’t be a lot of feedback about why the search was going on for so long.


No Update Next Week

I won’t be super available next week, so we’ll probably miss a week of updates.
ZaedynFel wrote:
No Update Next Week: I won’t be super available next week, so we’ll probably miss a week of updates.
:(
ZaedynFel wrote:
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
In my experience, searching "focused" guarantees being dumped into join-in-progress matches for social and Warzone. Why is that?

Face a full fireteam or drop into a (losing) JIP match isn’t much of a choice.
ZaedynFel wrote:
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
In my experience, searching "focused" guarantees being dumped into join-in-progress matches for social and Warzone. Why is that?

Face a full fireteam or drop into a (losing) JIP match isn’t much of a choice.
You could say it's a kind of side effect that Zaedynfel mentioned. If you don't find a match after waiting the 2-3 minutes, you match with whoever's waited as long as you or get tossed into whatever match is available. Though I believe joining games has very little, if anything at all, to do with your search preferences. Could be wrong though.
ZaedynFel wrote:
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
In my experience, searching "focused" guarantees being dumped into join-in-progress matches for social and Warzone. Why is that?
We don't do anything to encourage JIP for focused.

Focused may narrow you[r] available data centers way down, and JIP queries can only be fulfilled on the same data center, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that would cause it.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Leave it as is: Players can back out early manually if they want to avoid lower-skilled players, allowing those players who don’t care to still find matches.
Can you expand on this? You currently can't see who you're matching with and you don't know their rank either so I'm not sure how you would know your teammates are low skilled players.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Leave it as is: Players can back out early manually if they want to avoid lower-skilled players, allowing those players who don’t care to still find matches.
Can you expand on this? You currently can't see who you're matching with and you don't know their rank either so I'm not sure how you would know your teammates are low skilled players.
Make sure you read the HCS update below this after:

  • When you hit Go, the matchmaker looks for a tiny skill gap at first
  • This expands every 5 seconds, allowing wider and wider skill gaps
  • It expands a full Rank (300 Onyx CSR or Diamond, Platinum, Gold) roughly every 40s
  • The search stops expanding roughly 4 Ranks out (1200 CSR)
  • So if you leave before 40s, you'll only see one Rank or around 300 CSR away
  • If you leave before 80s, 2 ranks, etc.
So if you search Focused and quit early, you are restricting the search manually.

BUT:
  • We just made a tweak to HCS
  • HCS now takes 80s to expand a rank instead of 40s
  • HCS stops expanding at a distance of roughly 2 Ranks away (600 CSR)
  • There's probably no reason to back out of an HCS search unless you are super picky. e.g. If you are a low Onyx player who doesn't want to see Plat players, then quit out before 80s have passed.
ZaedynFel wrote:
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
In my experience, searching "focused" guarantees being dumped into join-in-progress matches for social and Warzone. Why is that?
Face a full fireteam or drop into a (losing) JIP match isn’t much of a choice.
You could say it's a kind of side effect that Zaedynfel mentioned. If you don't find a match after waiting the 2-3 minutes, you match with whoever's waited as long as you or get tossed into whatever match is available. Though I believe joining games has very little, if anything at all, to do with your search preferences. Could be wrong though.
No. It happens quickly.
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
In my experience, searching "focused" guarantees being dumped into join-in-progress matches for social and Warzone. Why is that?
We don't do anything to encourage JIP for focused.
Focused may narrow you available data centers way down, and JIP queries can only be fulfilled on the same data center, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that would cause it.
You have the numbers, so what do the statistics say? Is JIP more likely when solo searching focused vs. balanced?

Additionally, a proper explanation of how the JIP system works would be helpful.
ZaedynFel wrote:
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
In my experience, searching "focused" guarantees being dumped into join-in-progress matches for social and Warzone. Why is that?
Face a full fireteam or drop into a (losing) JIP match isn’t much of a choice.
You could say it's a kind of side effect that Zaedynfel mentioned. If you don't find a match after waiting the 2-3 minutes, you match with whoever's waited as long as you or get tossed into whatever match is available. Though I believe joining games has very little, if anything at all, to do with your search preferences. Could be wrong though.
No. It happens quickly.
Well, guess that means joining games has nothing to do with search preference at all. Someone quits out of a game because they suck, so you're just the lucky guy that gets his number pulled to join in.
ZaedynFel wrote:
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
In my experience, searching "focused" guarantees being dumped into join-in-progress matches for social and Warzone. Why is that?
Face a full fireteam or drop into a (losing) JIP match isn’t much of a choice.
You could say it's a kind of side effect that Zaedynfel mentioned. If you don't find a match after waiting the 2-3 minutes, you match with whoever's waited as long as you or get tossed into whatever match is available. Though I believe joining games has very little, if anything at all, to do with your search preferences. Could be wrong though.
No. It happens quickly.
Well, guess that means joining games has nothing to do with search preference at all. Someone quits out of a game because they suck, so you're just the lucky guy that gets his number pulled to join in.
As I said, it happens to me far more when I search focused than balanced. Bad luck? I doubt it.

Let’s see what the official stats say.
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/f1d02713-e04c-44ad-a9b0-6bf206f7423a/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=1&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/aac2d488-9dac-4b97-af02-b483882c0f3b/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=0&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

Back to back games I spawn in with score already 2-0.
Is there any reason the system couldn't tell the difference between a player just flat out quitting amd a player quitting because the game crashed/glitched? I just had a game that didn't even start because it was stuck on black scree, so I quit the build. It treated this like a loss since I "quit". I know you've talked about similar things in the past where it can get complicated not punishing people for disconnects because it's hard to tell if a person legitimately got disconnected because their internet shut off or something, or if they just pulled their Ethernet cord or shut off their wifi. But it seems like the system would know when there was an issue with that particular game and assume that that's probably why the person quit and not count that as a loss. Especially in a case like the one I just experienced since the game hadn't even started yet, so why would I quit if there wasn't some kind of issue? I know it's not that big of a deal, but it is frustrating since it did cause my rank to drop to the previous rank tier after I lost the next game.
ZaedynFel wrote:
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
In my experience, searching "focused" guarantees being dumped into join-in-progress matches for social and Warzone. Why is that?
Face a full fireteam or drop into a (losing) JIP match isn’t much of a choice.
You could say it's a kind of side effect that Zaedynfel mentioned. If you don't find a match after waiting the 2-3 minutes, you match with whoever's waited as long as you or get tossed into whatever match is available. Though I believe joining games has very little, if anything at all, to do with your search preferences. Could be wrong though.
No. It happens quickly.
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
In my experience, searching "focused" guarantees being dumped into join-in-progress matches for social and Warzone. Why is that?
We don't do anything to encourage JIP for focused.
Focused may narrow you available data centers way down, and JIP queries can only be fulfilled on the same data center, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that would cause it.
You have the numbers, so what do the statistics say? Is JIP more likely when solo searching focused vs. balanced?

Additionally, a proper explanation of how the JIP system works would be helpful.
My experience searching focused in WZ is to get many more JIP matches.
If I go into the que on Balanced, I may start in a JIP match at the beginning, but after I will get new matches.
If I go in on Focused, I will get back to back JIP matches, I have gotten up to 3 in a row before I back out and go back to balanced.
Join in progress is messy. The majority of the time I get decent matches where someone quit out early because they don't like the map, or their mom made them wash the dishes, or whatever. Those play pretty normally. However, occasionally I get thrown into games where it makes me want to just go play a different game.

Example 1: JIP into Eden Oddball. I join a team with 1 player (I was the second) and it's very obvious that the other team is just farming kills. The ball was not being picked up, the other team had 20+ kills apiece, and were leading in points by like 190-10. I just nope'd right out of that one.

Example 2: JIP in to Truth Oddball. I spawn and literally one second later the game announcer says 'Defeat'. A loss without even a chance to get a shot off.

I've been playing a lot of oddball lately cuz it's really fun most of the time, but I've had other issues with JIP in other playlists like Skirmish, Griffball, etc. Though it doesn't happen very often, it would be nice to have some sort of system in place that wouldn't allow JIPs if the game is heavily weighted for the opposing team to win i.e. 199-0 oddball games, games where multiple people have repeatedly quit off the same team, etc. Is this something that could be implemented in Halo 5?
Is there any reason the system couldn't tell the difference between a player just flat out quitting amd a player quitting because the game crashed/glitched? I just had a game that didn't even start because it was stuck on black scree, so I quit the build. It treated this like a loss since I "quit". I know you've talked about similar things in the past where it can get complicated not punishing people for disconnects because it's hard to tell if a person legitimately got disconnected because their internet shut off or something, or if they just pulled their Ethernet cord or shut off their wifi. But it seems like the system would know when there was an issue with that particular game and assume that that's probably why the person quit and not count that as a loss. Especially in a case like the one I just experienced since the game hadn't even started yet, so why would I quit if there wasn't some kind of issue? I know it's not that big of a deal, but it is frustrating since it did cause my rank to drop to the previous rank tier after I lost the next game.
If all quits were "honest" they could tell, but they are generally not so they have to be treated the same. Many players quit a match (or during the load screen) by shutting down the box, quitting the game manually, etc. If they do that late it could look the same as what happened to you last night. They can tell the difference between when someone does this vs going to the menu and leaving the match "properly", but since they can't tell when crashes/disconnects are glitches or intentional they have to treat them the same. The timing doesn't really make a difference.

I try to look at it this way, sometimes that happens to me and i feel like i got screwed. But other times it happens to the other team and I essentially get a free win. In the long run it balances out.

yah0oit wrote:
Join in progress is messy. The majority of the time I get decent matches where someone quit out early because they don't like the map, or their mom made them wash the dishes, or whatever. Those play pretty normally. However, occasionally I get thrown into games where it makes me want to just go play a different game.

Example 1: JIP into Eden Oddball. I join a team with 1 player (I was the second) and it's very obvious that the other team is just farming kills. The ball was not being picked up, the other team had 20+ kills apiece, and were leading in points by like 190-10. I just nope'd right out of that one.

Example 2: JIP in to Truth Oddball. I spawn and literally one second later the game announcer says 'Defeat'. A loss without even a chance to get a shot off.

I've been playing a lot of oddball lately cuz it's really fun most of the time, but I've had other issues with JIP in other playlists like Skirmish, Griffball, etc. Though it doesn't happen very often, it would be nice to have some sort of system in place that wouldn't allow JIPs if the game is heavily weighted for the opposing team to win i.e. 199-0 oddball games, games where multiple people have repeatedly quit off the same team, etc. Is this something that could be implemented in Halo 5?
I second this. Even something simple akin to "if the game that needs slots filled is over 50% of the way to the primary win condition, it is no longer eligible for JIP."
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/f1d02713-e04c-44ad-a9b0-6bf206f7423a/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=1&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/aac2d488-9dac-4b97-af02-b483882c0f3b/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=0&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

Back to back games I spawn in with score already 2-0.
With some non-slayer based objective modes this is entirely possible and not much the JiP matchmaking system can do to lessen your grievance; though, if 343i were to implement a few additional benchmarks that would turn the matchmaker's JiP system off sooner given certain conditions occurred perhaps some of these grievances could be minimalized a bit further. The benchmarks that restrict the matchmaker's JiP system should be (1) the score disparity, (2) the match's remaining time, and (3) the amount of people the JiP system brings into the match for a particular side. While the score disparity in relation to remaining time is a necessity benchmark for pretty much all modes it's specifically useful for slayer-based modes and high point total non-slayer based modes where a team can't refuse to score for very long such as in Strongholds because the nature of these modes themselves don't really allow for much kill farming to occur; however, the problem is that a score disparity benchmark doesn't necessarily work as effectively to prevent grievances in low point-total non-slayer based modes such as Flag, Bomb, etc. High point total non-slayer based modes where scoring can be halted such as with Oddball and most KotH modes also present a bit of a similar problematic grievance to players too; therefore, having another benchmark that would turn off the matchmaker's JiP system should help alleviate some of the potential frustrations players could face. This benchmark should be based on limiting the total amount of people the system allows to join a particular team and it could progressively reduce in accordance with the match's remaining time or at least I think the coders could set it up that way. That type of benchmark should help prevent the matchmaker's JiP system from getting abused by opponent's who might be looking to pad their stats (aka kill farming) within those modes where the score disparity benchmark isn't as effective at preventing JiP grievances. I do think the initial cut-off numbers for potential people to join should coincide somewhat with the initial team size; in other words, a team of 4 can't have more than 4 or maybe 3 new players added throughout a match. Last but not least, nobody should be joining a match-in-progress as the match's timer is about to conclude (say perhaps the final 2 min or so). It would also be nice to see players who get JiP'd into a social match where the team they join is losing not have the potential loss indicated on their statistical record or affect their match-make rating (MMR) unless the team they joined managed to take the lead before going on to lose.
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/f1d02713-e04c-44ad-a9b0-6bf206f7423a/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=1&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/aac2d488-9dac-4b97-af02-b483882c0f3b/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=0&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

Back to back games I spawn in with score already 2-0.
Yeah, as has been alluded to, the problem is that the game can be 1-0 or even 0-0 when the system first pulls you in and stats the process of getting you into the game.

Then, while you're loading, someone scores a lucky or smart push, and the game state changes while you are still getting set up.

It's doesn't happen often, but it's possible, and very difficult to detect.
So if I use Focused ...Playing Solo or with only one friend on my Fireteam I will have a better Chance of voiding a random Vs Fullteam Matchup ?
This update has really brought down solo queing for me, full fireteams every single match. Especially in swat and breakout. I get screwed. I end up match 2 champs or 1 with 2 onyx or maybe a diamond in there, and my team are all smurf accounts. Fantastic.
Deadlock I wrote:
So if I use Focused ...Playing Solo or with only one friend on my Fireteam I will have a better Chance of voiding a random Vs Fullteam Matchup ?
Yes, you have a better chance with Focused.
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