Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – July 10

OP ZaedynFel

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Thanks for the update! Is there any updates coming for smurfing and boosting? I'm still playing against teams of two to three oynx players and one bronze player. Upon checking his history, he lost all 10 of his placement matches and then has pretty much barely lost since. Seems like something that could be easy to catch.

I've also come across a team that is cheating, one of the guys is definitely using a modded controller and destroying...he's champ one in team arena...
how does a modded controller help in H5? There are no known button combo glitches now that multi-shot has been patched, right?
ZaedynFel wrote:
Its quite simple really after a certain point people should no longer be able to join the game. And there are several points.
1. After the first 5 minutes of the game.
2. After and objective has more than a 1 score difference in Assault or Flag.
3. If and objective is tied but one team has a set amount more kills than another.(Basically if a team is padding their stats on another team, players should not have to Jip into this situation.
4. If a one team is ahead by more than 20 kills in a slayer(Big team) 10 kills in normal playlists.

Just these few things will help a lot. Nobody likes to join into an automatic loss.
Yeah, that's basically what happens now. In fact, I believe (without looking at the code -- famous last words) that every game mode has its own set up rules that tell the matchmaker when to stop backfilling.

But even under those conditions, you'll get rare cases of backfilling into a quick loss.

  1. CTF match starts
  2. 2 minutes go by while teams are getting a feel for each other
  3. Team 1 scores
  4. Player A leaves the match.
  5. Rules say it's still OK to backfill, requests 1 more player.
  6. Player is found and begins loading
  7. Team 1 at this point has become organized and "figured out" Team 2, they quickly score again
  8. Player J loads into the match at this point, it's 2-0
  9. Team 1 quickly scores again.
In this sequence, at the time Player J was requested, everything looked fine (only 1 point, only 2 minutes in, etc.), but things "escalated quickly" while the player was still loading in.

It's uncommon, but can and does happen.
I'd be curious to know how it works with Oddball. I've had probably 3-4 games since the playlist launched that end up like this:

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/yah0oit/video/34017175 .

or worse; I'd have more examples but I was trying out Mixer so DVR was disabled.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Thanks for the update! Is there any updates coming for smurfing and boosting? I'm still playing against teams of two to three oynx players and one bronze player. Upon checking his history, he lost all 10 of his placement matches and then has pretty much barely lost since. Seems like something that could be easy to catch.

I've also come across a team that is cheating, one of the guys is definitely using a modded controller and destroying...he's champ one in team arena...
Yes, we've working on solutions to all of what you've brought up here.
Awesome! thank you!
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
Thanks for the update! Is there any updates coming for smurfing and boosting? I'm still playing against teams of two to three oynx players and one bronze player. Upon checking his history, he lost all 10 of his placement matches and then has pretty much barely lost since. Seems like something that could be easy to catch.

I've also come across a team that is cheating, one of the guys is definitely using a modded controller and destroying...he's champ one in team arena...
how does a modded controller help in H5? There are no known button combo glitches now that multi-shot has been patched, right?
Honestly I'm not really sure, but he was definitely cheating. The AR and Carbine specifically. He was insta melting our team no matter what we did, it seemed like his AR had the damage or fire rate of the answer. A random person made a clip on reddit of being killed by the same guy with the carbine and he was insta melted. His gamertag is Soyawe . He was champ 1 for a long time.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
Thanks for the update! Is there any updates coming for smurfing and boosting? I'm still playing against teams of two to three oynx players and one bronze player. Upon checking his history, he lost all 10 of his placement matches and then has pretty much barely lost since. Seems like something that could be easy to catch.

I've also come across a team that is cheating, one of the guys is definitely using a modded controller and destroying...he's champ one in team arena...
how does a modded controller help in H5? There are no known button combo glitches now that multi-shot has been patched, right?
Honestly I'm not really sure, but he was definitely cheating. The AR and Carbine specifically. He was insta melting our team no matter what we did, it seemed like his AR had the damage or fire rate of the answer. A random person made a clip on reddit of being killed by the same guy with the carbine and he was insta melted. His gamertag is Soyawe . He was champ 1 for a long time.
hmm, maybe a pulsing trigger to help with AR/SMG accuracy.
yah0oit wrote:
I'd be curious to know how it works with Oddball. I've had probably 3-4 games since the playlist launched that end up like this:

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/yah0oit/video/34017175 .

or worse; I'd have more examples but I was trying out Mixer so DVR was disabled.
I think with Oddball it's related to the gamemode's Assault roots. In order to get Oddball out in a timely fashion, I think it borrows a lot from Assault, including the JIP logic.

It pretty likely that Assault's JIP logic doesn't quite fit Oddball, resulting in more of these experiences.

We may need to consider disabling JIP from Oddball, though that may feel inconsistent in Social where you're used to being able to leave.

We're not likely to be able to fix the root cause in the near future though.
ZaedynFel wrote:
yah0oit wrote:
I'd be curious to know how it works with Oddball. I've had probably 3-4 games since the playlist launched that end up like this:

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/yah0oit/video/34017175 .

or worse; I'd have more examples but I was trying out Mixer so DVR was disabled.
I think with Oddball it's related to the gamemode's Assault roots. In order to get Oddball out in a timely fashion, I think it borrows a lot from Assault, including the JIP logic.

It pretty likely that Assault's JIP logic doesn't quite fit Oddball, resulting in more of these experiences.

We may need to consider disabling JIP from Oddball, though that may feel inconsistent in Social where you're used to being able to leave.

We're not likely to be able to fix the root cause in the near future though.
Yeah, I personally wouldn't want it to be disabled completely. These types of short games are not common enough to warrant nobody at all joining - I would think that would be a lot more frustrating for the people forced to play 10+ minutes without a full team.

Thanks for the response!!
ZaedynFel wrote:
Its quite simple really after a certain point people should no longer be able to join the game. And there are several points.
1. After the first 5 minutes of the game.
2. After and objective has more than a 1 score difference in Assault or Flag.
3. If and objective is tied but one team has a set amount more kills than another.(Basically if a team is padding their stats on another team, players should not have to Jip into this situation.
4. If a one team is ahead by more than 20 kills in a slayer(Big team) 10 kills in normal playlists.

Just these few things will help a lot. Nobody likes to join into an automatic loss.
Yeah, that's basically what happens now. In fact, I believe (without looking at the code -- famous last words) that every game mode has its own set up rules that tell the matchmaker when to stop backfilling.

But even under those conditions, you'll get rare cases of backfilling into a quick loss.

  1. CTF match starts
  2. 2 minutes go by while teams are getting a feel for each other
  3. Team 1 scores
  4. Player A leaves the match.
  5. Rules say it's still OK to backfill, requests 1 more player.
  6. Player is found and begins loading
  7. Team 1 at this point has become organized and "figured out" Team 2, they quickly score again
  8. Player J loads into the match at this point, it's 2-0
  9. Team 1 quickly scores again.
In this sequence, at the time Player J was requested, everything looked fine (only 1 point, only 2 minutes in, etc.), but things "escalated quickly" while the player was still loading in.

It's uncommon, but can and does happen.
Did you look at the game I linked? 11 people JiPd into that game and 9-10 of them were after the score was 2-0, it literally just kept bringing players in after they would join and getting killed several times then quit. And it did it throughout the whole game.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.
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RzR J3ST3R wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
Thanks for the update! Is there any updates coming for smurfing and boosting? I'm still playing against teams of two to three oynx players and one bronze player. Upon checking his history, he lost all 10 of his placement matches and then has pretty much barely lost since. Seems like something that could be easy to catch.

I've also come across a team that is cheating, one of the guys is definitely using a modded controller and destroying...he's champ one in team arena...
how does a modded controller help in H5? There are no known button combo glitches now that multi-shot has been patched, right?
Honestly I'm not really sure, but he was definitely cheating. The AR and Carbine specifically. He was insta melting our team no matter what we did, it seemed like his AR had the damage or fire rate of the answer. A random person made a clip on reddit of being killed by the same guy with the carbine and he was insta melted. His gamertag is Soyawe . He was champ 1 for a long time.
hmm, maybe a pulsing trigger to help with AR/SMG accuracy.
yeah I'm not up to speed on all the available ways to cheat. He definitely was doing something... :(
Great to see people like you sharing ongoing changes to matchmaking! What people fail to understand is that most of the issues we encounter are not specific to this game(long waiting times, lopsided games, Onyx vs plats etc). Its tough having a balanced matchmaking environment with such a drastically low playerbase.( I'm not trying to put the blame on 343 decision making OR the community here; its a fact, this game is dead population wise for better or worse).
ZaedynFel wrote:
Its quite simple really after a certain point people should no longer be able to join the game. And there are several points.
1. After the first 5 minutes of the game.
2. After and objective has more than a 1 score difference in Assault or Flag.
3. If and objective is tied but one team has a set amount more kills than another.(Basically if a team is padding their stats on another team, players should not have to Jip into this situation.
4. If a one team is ahead by more than 20 kills in a slayer(Big team) 10 kills in normal playlists.

Just these few things will help a lot. Nobody likes to join into an automatic loss.
Yeah, that's basically what happens now. In fact, I believe (without looking at the code -- famous last words) that every game mode has its own set up rules that tell the matchmaker when to stop backfilling.

But even under those conditions, you'll get rare cases of backfilling into a quick loss.

  1. CTF match starts
  2. 2 minutes go by while teams are getting a feel for each other
  3. Team 1 scores
  4. Player A leaves the match.
  5. Rules say it's still OK to backfill, requests 1 more player.
  6. Player is found and begins loading
  7. Team 1 at this point has become organized and "figured out" Team 2, they quickly score again
  8. Player J loads into the match at this point, it's 2-0
  9. Team 1 quickly scores again.
In this sequence, at the time Player J was requested, everything looked fine (only 1 point, only 2 minutes in, etc.), but things "escalated quickly" while the player was still loading in.

It's uncommon, but can and does happen.
Did you look at the game I linked? 11 people JiPd into that game and 9-10 of them were after the score was 2-0, it literally just kept bringing players in after they would join and getting killed several times then quit. And it did it throughout the whole game.
This particular grievance is in part why I think having an additional benchmark that's based on limiting the total amount of people the matchmaker's JiP system allows to join a particular team. I think the initial cut-off number for potential people to join should coincide somewhat with the initial team size; in other words, a team of 4 can't have more than 4 added throughout a match (or maybe it should be 3 new players so that at least one original teammate must remain in order to maintain a full squad). Plus, perhaps the coders could even set it up to progressively reduce in accordance with the match's remaining time. That type of benchmark should help prevent the matchmaker's JiP system from getting abused by opponent's who might be looking to pad their stats (aka kill farming) within the types of non-slayer based modes where the score disparity vs remaining time benchmark isn't as effective at preventing JiP grievances.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.
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Can we have original breakout back I feel like your just ignoring the fact you killed a game mode that was once very popular
ZaedynFel wrote:
Party MatchmakingI mentioned a month or so ago that we were close to releasing a temporary stopgap feature for party matchmaking. This feature is now live.
The new feature has full Fireteams try to only matchmake with full fireteams for around 2-3 minutes before giving up and letting them match with non-full parties.
However, if a full fireteam doesn’t search Focused, they can still match with non-full fireteams that have already waited 2-3 minutes.
In addition, if a non-full fireteam does not search Focused, a full fireteam can match with them after the Fireteam has waited 2-3 minutes, even immediately.
To guarantee you personally don’t see a full fireteam for at least 2-3 minutes, search Focused. This can have side-effects, as discussed below.
Onyx Solo Matchmaking with Party Restriction EnabledWith the new fireteam restriction enabled, solo-queueing Onyx players are starting to see Plats and even Golds in their matches. This is a side-effect of enforcing full fireteam matchmaking. Most Onyx players are in parties, so removing them from the available pool is pushing solo Onyx players into matches with lower-skilled players. The team balancing should still result in relatively even teams, but with some wide skill gaps.
Basically, we’ve traded solo Onyx players matching against organized to4 Onyx players for solo Onyx players playing with Platinum / high-Gold players.
Here are some options on how we could address this:
  • Leave it as is: Players can back out early manually if they want to avoid lower-skilled players, allowing those players who don’t care to still find matches.
  • Turn off party restrictions: We could do this quickly. Though this would result in solo queueing players matching against to4 again, but at least they usually would all be Onyx.
  • Tighten the allowable MMR gap. This would prevent Onyx from seeing Gold, but lead to much longer wait times, restarting the search a few times for Onyx players to find each other. It would also mean that Onyx players who don’t care would have to wait longer. Though if they searched Balanced it will alleviate that somewhat. We may try this first
  • Allow longer search times: This would take a bit longer to do, but it is something we have on the table. The problem is, there wouldn’t be a lot of feedback about why the search was going on for so long.
No Update Next Week I won’t be super available next week, so we’ll probably miss a week of updates.
I played 10 games or so with my friends (we we're a full fireteam) in Team Slayer a few nights ago and we definitely could notice the changes. Wait times were much longer then before, which I knew would happen, but out of the 10-12 games we played I would only say a few were pretty even. We had a few games where we played high Onyx players one game even with the high champion and then even had a bunch of games where we played gold's and even silvers!!! Many times after the match we heard the people on the other team say why are we playing these guys??? How is this fair??? It honestly wasn't fair at all when we played silvers/gold's or even platinums for the most part. I wasn't ranked yet nor was one of my other friends but my one friend was (barely onyx) We all have been playing since day 1 so we've been ranked previously in seasons. Feel free to go into my history and see the matches yourself.

Overall I'd say the matchmaking experience was ok... Not the greatest though. I do realize that if population was higher it would most likely be better and work really well as ZaedynFel has stated but the reality is it's not. I know some people won't like this opinion but I seriously think it was better before when solo players could match against teams easier. My friends and I agree that we never thought the games were that bad before. I generally play with a full fireteam in ranked but not always and sometimes even solo and I would say we won as many as we lost.

At this point in Halo 5 life (read that again for anyone who might want to bite my head off here in what I'm aboat to say, as my opinion would be different if the population numbers were higher) my suggestion would be to Turn off party restrictions again. Have it like before. I acknowledge it wasn't perfect before but I feel it wasn't that bad either and with the current population think that it might be the best way to go.

I would be open to Tighten the allowable MMR gap but I think most people would not be happy waiting 5mins + or so for game. Kids today, heck society, isn't exactly the most patient as we know.

If population was good I'd say Tighten the allowable MMR gap or Allow longer search times for sure!!!
Redacted
Please explain the matchmaking for the most recent ranked slayer game I played.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/2d9c3867-f668-4182-a6b3-98035815e25d/players/lil%20boy%20crispy?gameHistoryMatchIndex=0&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena
Please explain the matchmaking for the most recent ranked slayer game I played.
1. If you want help/answers, you need to provide a link. You may have played multiple games since you posted.

2. If you mean this game, then there are Diamonds and Plats. That's perfectly normal and well within expected MM behaviour.
ZaedynFel wrote:
I know some people won't like this opinion but I seriously think it was better before when solo players could match against teams easier. My friends and I agree that we never thought the games were that bad before. I generally play with a full fireteam in ranked but not always and sometimes even solo and I would say we won as many as we lost.

At this point in Halo 5 life (read that again for anyone who might want to bite my head off here in what I'm aboat to say, as my opinion would be different if the population numbers were higher) my suggestion would be to Turn off party restrictions again. Have it like before. I acknowledge it wasn't perfect before but I feel it wasn't that bad either and with the current population think that it might be the best way to go.
I actually agree with you. I only play solo except for the extremely rare occasion that one of my friends is able to get on, but I never really had a problem. Even when I did match a full team, the matches were usually pretty even, and like Josh has said in previous updates, full teams only tend to have a huge advantage when they're at the higher ranks, if I remember correctly anyway. Since I'm usually only Gold-Platinum in most of the 4v4 playlists, I didn't typically match players who were ranked so high that they had a distinct advantage being in a party. But now that solo players don't usually match parties, I've had some pretty lopsided games. Like last night or early this morning, I had a game of Snipers where I matched a team of 3 Champs and 1 Onyx when I was a Gold 6. Now in the system's defense, my teammates were 2 Diamonds and an Onyx, but the Onyx and one of the Diamonds quit (the Onyx actually quit before the game loaded and the Diamond quit when he only had one kill) so it definitely felt more lopsided than it would've been had half my team not quit. But still, a Gold 6 matching Champs (one of which was a Champ 14 and was also ranked Champ in a second playlist and was an Onyx in HCS)?
I've came up with a great idea, how about you give us the option if we want to join a match in progress, a simple toggle switch.
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