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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – July 3

OP ZaedynFel

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ZaedynFel wrote:
l Jinxed I wrote:
Game 1Game 2Game 3Game 4Game 5Why am I getting matches this lopsided? These are just the past few games I've played, there are even more examples of matches similar to these. I'm searching in Focused, but matches feel like social. Are there not enough players for me to have gotten a full lobby in Platinum? Basically, all the matches I played yesterday were where I would lose a large amount of CSR because I had players who don't know how to play the map, or the wins are meaningless because the other team was very low ranked. Why am I getting put in matches like these? I could probably find more examples from when I was in Diamond 1 yesterday, then got deranked all the way down to plat 4 because I wasn't getting enough CSR for each win, in some cases, it looked like I got nothing.

Thanks.
Two things:
  • Pop is not amazing right now in HCS, so sometimes it will have to dig deep. There may not always be enough Plat to fill a match entirely with Plat. Also, if a party searches and their average MMR is Plat, then you will look equal to them even if they have a spread of players above and below Plat.
  • I looked into these matches. MMR gaps were (0.14, 0.29, 0.73, 0.89, 0.71). Which are all well within the old tolerance (1.0) and the new one (1.5). So despite the range of CSRs you see on the PGCR, the actual average MMR gaps were fine.
Thank you!
Something needs to be done to address the fact that skilled WZ players who typically play in strong To6s get MMRs so high that it becomes impossible for us to enjoy solo queue on our main accounts. I searched solo queue for 5 games this weekend, and matched a full Allegiance To6 for 3 of those 5 games. Had only 1-2 other decent solo-queue players on my team, and a whole bunch of potatoes for the rest of my teammates. Needless to say, we were trip-capped within 3 minutes each time. I don't mind losing games, but I literally can't do anything in most solo queue WZ games except fight 1v3s and die. BTW, this also ruins the game for my teammates, since they're getting wrecked alongside me, so it's not just my problem...!

It's gotten so bad that if I want to solo-queue WZ, I need to play on a low SR smurf account, which isn't fun cause I have no REQs there. (my main acct is SR 151) Playing on a 2nd account is workable in arena since there are no REQs, but it sucks in WZ.

I can think of 2 options based on Josh's previous posts:
  1. Preferred option - Implement the "2-mode" system for the WZ playlists. I'll play ranked mode with my To6 and match against other sweaty teams. I'll play social mode (with an INDEPENDENT MMR) when I'm solo. Then I can still use my REQs and get RP/XP on my main account, but I won't get blown out 1000-100 every game I solo-queue.
  2. Store both a solo-queue MMR and a fireteam MMR for each playlist. e.g. when I run in a To5 or To6 the game knows my warzone MMR is ~Onyx 1550, but when i play solo it's only Diamond 2.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
Something needs to be done to address the fact that skilled WZ players who typically play in strong To6s get MMRs so high that it becomes impossible for us to enjoy solo queue on our main accounts. I searched solo queue for 5 games this weekend, and matched a full Allegiance To6 for 3 of those 5 games. Had only 1-2 other decent solo-queue players on my team, and a whole bunch of potatoes for the rest of my teammates. Needless to say, we were trip-capped within 3 minutes each time. I don't mind losing games, but I literally can't do anything in most solo queue WZ games except fight 1v3s and die. BTW, this also ruins the game for my teammates, since they're getting wrecked alongside me, so it's not just my problem...!

It's gotten so bad that if I want to solo-queue WZ, I need to play on a low SR smurf account, which isn't fun cause I have no REQs there. (my main acct is SR 151) Playing on a 2nd account is workable in arena since there are no REQs, but it sucks in WZ.

I can think of 2 options based on Josh's previous posts:
  1. Preferred option - Implement the "2-mode" system for the WZ playlists. I'll play ranked mode with my To6 and match against other sweaty teams. I'll play social mode (with an INDEPENDENT MMR) when I'm solo. Then I can still use my REQs and get RP/XP on my main account, but I won't get blown out 1000-100 every game I solo-queue.
  2. Store both a solo-queue MMR and a fireteam MMR for each playlist. e.g. when I run in a To5 or To6 the game knows my warzone MMR is ~Onyx 1550, but when i play solo it's only Diamond 2.
Our upcoming skill rating update does something similar to (2).

But it doesn't use a separate MMR, it's more like:
  • MMR = base_MMR + partysize_MMR_Offset
One possible "party size" is "1" and that may have an offset of "0"'

Another size could be "6" and have an offset of 100-300, or whatever it should be.

Which would accomplish basically what you said in (2), but at the same time not split the MMRs which is less efficient. This way lets us share information about match outcomes across the two situations to still update your MMR.
ZaedynFel wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
Something needs to be done to address the fact that skilled WZ players who typically play in strong To6s get MMRs so high that it becomes impossible for us to enjoy solo queue on our main accounts. I searched solo queue for 5 games this weekend, and matched a full Allegiance To6 for 3 of those 5 games. Had only 1-2 other decent solo-queue players on my team, and a whole bunch of potatoes for the rest of my teammates. Needless to say, we were trip-capped within 3 minutes each time. I don't mind losing games, but I literally can't do anything in most solo queue WZ games except fight 1v3s and die. BTW, this also ruins the game for my teammates, since they're getting wrecked alongside me, so it's not just my problem...!

It's gotten so bad that if I want to solo-queue WZ, I need to play on a low SR smurf account, which isn't fun cause I have no REQs there. (my main acct is SR 151) Playing on a 2nd account is workable in arena since there are no REQs, but it sucks in WZ.

I can think of 2 options based on Josh's previous posts:
  1. Preferred option - Implement the "2-mode" system for the WZ playlists. I'll play ranked mode with my To6 and match against other sweaty teams. I'll play social mode (with an INDEPENDENT MMR) when I'm solo. Then I can still use my REQs and get RP/XP on my main account, but I won't get blown out 1000-100 every game I solo-queue.
  2. Store both a solo-queue MMR and a fireteam MMR for each playlist. e.g. when I run in a To5 or To6 the game knows my warzone MMR is ~Onyx 1550, but when i play solo it's only Diamond 2.
Our upcoming skill rating update does something similar to (2).

But it doesn't use a separate MMR, it's more like:
  • MMR = base_MMR + partysize_MMR_Offset
One possible "party size" is "1" and that may have an offset of "0"'

Another size could be "6" and have an offset of 100-300, or whatever it should be.

Which would accomplish basically what you said in (2), but at the same time not split the MMRs which is less efficient. This way lets us share information about match outcomes across the two situations to still update your MMR.
OK, well that's encouraging, thanks. I like that there is a different offset value for each party size... that's a good idea and should help make the MM more fair.

So are you saying that my own partysize_mmr_offset values will be independent from other people's? (although perhaps initialized to the same value, then allowed to adapt independently as I play games) I feel like that would be essential, since as you've said, some people don't get any benefit from a party, while others get a huge benefit.

Once again, thanks for your high level of attention/engagement in this thread. It really makes a huge difference.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
OK, well that's encouraging, thanks. I like that there is a different offset value for each party size... that's a good idea and should help make the MM more fair.

So are you saying that my own partysize_mmr_offset values will be independent from other people's? (although perhaps initialized to the same value, then allowed to adapt independently as I play games) I feel like that would be essential, since as you've said, some people don't get any benefit from a party, while others get a huge benefit.

Once again, thanks for your high level of attention/engagement in this thread. It really makes a huge difference.
We're still evaluating the data on whether it should be per player.

The reason is that the new model takes into account several new things as well, and we don't want to add too many new moving parts.

Under Halo 5's current model, yes, the party offsets would need to take something else into account (experience in parties, base MMR, etc.).

But under the new model, it may be that the other pieces it uses make up for that, and we don't actually need as fine an adjustment.

We're going to run the numbers and compare both.
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
New Season MMR Clipping The skill rating system (MMR) is supposed to clip everyone’s MMRs at the beginning of each season. We do this to trim off inflated player skills. We fixed an issue before last season that was preventing this clipping from happening.
Then, we discovered that the clipping was too aggressive in many playlists, making it so higher-skilled players had unusually large gaps between their MMR and CSR values, especially in FFA where players were starting at 1200 and having to climb up to 1800 (+600) just to get champ.
We have tuned that correctly for the new season coming, so the starting gaps for higher-skilled players will be more reasonable.
For those curious about the details:
  • We were clipping players to +/- 4.0 MMR
  • This would be 4 standard deviations IF the mean was 0 and the standard deviation 1.0
  • This is not the case in many playlists. For example, FFA has a mean AND standard deviation of around 2.0 each. So FFA was being clipped to only 1.0 standard deviations on the top (hence 1200 CSR).
  • We have changed it to clip 4 standard deviations from the mean, by playlist. So, using FFA as an example again, it will clip to 2.0 +/- 8.0 or [-6, 8].
Quick question -- what's the trimmed value for slayer and HCS? I'm just curious because those are the ranked playlists I play most. Thanks again for the great stuff Josh!
Well, these numbers won't tell you a whole lot, but I'll post them for fun?

Slayer will be -4.85 to 6.21
HCS will be -3.98 to 5.18
Sorry, I should've been clearer. I meant what's the max MMR that everyone will get trimmed to. Maybe I didn't even understand your original point clearly, but I know last season it was something around 1590 for slayer right?
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
New Season MMR Clipping The skill rating system (MMR) is supposed to clip everyone’s MMRs at the beginning of each season. We do this to trim off inflated player skills. We fixed an issue before last season that was preventing this clipping from happening.
Then, we discovered that the clipping was too aggressive in many playlists, making it so higher-skilled players had unusually large gaps between their MMR and CSR values, especially in FFA where players were starting at 1200 and having to climb up to 1800 (+600) just to get champ.
We have tuned that correctly for the new season coming, so the starting gaps for higher-skilled players will be more reasonable.
For those curious about the details:
  • We were clipping players to +/- 4.0 MMR
  • This would be 4 standard deviations IF the mean was 0 and the standard deviation 1.0
  • This is not the case in many playlists. For example, FFA has a mean AND standard deviation of around 2.0 each. So FFA was being clipped to only 1.0 standard deviations on the top (hence 1200 CSR).
  • We have changed it to clip 4 standard deviations from the mean, by playlist. So, using FFA as an example again, it will clip to 2.0 +/- 8.0 or [-6, 8].
Quick question -- what's the trimmed value for slayer and HCS? I'm just curious because those are the ranked playlists I play most. Thanks again for the great stuff Josh!
Well, these numbers won't tell you a whole lot, but I'll post them for fun?

Slayer will be -4.85 to 6.21
HCS will be -3.98 to 5.18
Sorry, I should've been clearer. I meant what's the max MMR that everyone will get trimmed to. Maybe I didn't even understand your original point clearly, but I know last season it was something around 1590 for slayer right?
Oh, yeah, in terms of CSR, that's 4 standard deviations, which would be 2100.

But we don't allow anyone to start above 1700 to prevent insta-Champs.

So for all Ranked playlists it's pretty much 1700 for top players.
ZaedynFel wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
OK, well that's encouraging, thanks. I like that there is a different offset value for each party size... that's a good idea and should help make the MM more fair.

So are you saying that my own partysize_mmr_offset values will be independent from other people's? (although perhaps initialized to the same value, then allowed to adapt independently as I play games) I feel like that would be essential, since as you've said, some people don't get any benefit from a party, while others get a huge benefit.

Once again, thanks for your high level of attention/engagement in this thread. It really makes a huge difference.
We're still evaluating the data on whether it should be per player.

The reason is that the new model takes into account several new things as well, and we don't want to add too many new moving parts.

Under Halo 5's current model, yes, the party offsets would need to take something else into account (experience in parties, base MMR, etc.).

But under the new model, it may be that the other pieces it uses make up for that, and we don't actually need as fine an adjustment.

We're going to run the numbers and compare both.
Cool, thanks for clarifying. Definitely looking forward to being able to solo-queue again in WZ. It's also worth pointing out that after solo-queing and losing every game (dropping my MMR), I get back into a To6 and absolutely run over kids. So my teams are either getting creamed while I solo queue, or destroying kids while I'm in a fireteam (which can't be fun for the people I'm beating). The only option now is to keep my main acct MMR high by only playing with a To6, so we get competitive games. Then I solo-queue on an alt, without any REQs. :-/

I know you like to avoid making any hard timeline predictions (since getting the details right can take time), but is this generally something you guys are actively working and hoping to include for an update cycle in the coming several months? Or is this a longer-term thing?
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
OK, well that's encouraging, thanks. I like that there is a different offset value for each party size... that's a good idea and should help make the MM more fair.

So are you saying that my own partysize_mmr_offset values will be independent from other people's? (although perhaps initialized to the same value, then allowed to adapt independently as I play games) I feel like that would be essential, since as you've said, some people don't get any benefit from a party, while others get a huge benefit.

Once again, thanks for your high level of attention/engagement in this thread. It really makes a huge difference.
We're still evaluating the data on whether it should be per player.

The reason is that the new model takes into account several new things as well, and we don't want to add too many new moving parts.

Under Halo 5's current model, yes, the party offsets would need to take something else into account (experience in parties, base MMR, etc.).

But under the new model, it may be that the other pieces it uses make up for that, and we don't actually need as fine an adjustment.

We're going to run the numbers and compare both.
Cool, thanks for clarifying. Definitely looking forward to being able to solo-queue again in WZ. It's also worth pointing out that after solo-queing and losing every game (dropping my MMR), I get back into a To6 and absolutely run over kids. So my teams are either getting creamed while I solo queue, or destroying kids while I'm in a fireteam (which can't be fun for the people I'm beating). The only option now is to keep my main acct MMR high by only playing with a To6, so we get competitive games. Then I solo-queue on an alt, without any REQs. :-/

I know you like to avoid making any hard timeline predictions (since getting the details right can take time), but is this generally something you guys are actively working and hoping to include for an update cycle in the coming several months? Or is this a longer-term thing?
Hoping it's a several months thing, but not counting my eggs till they hatch.
@ZaedynFel

What time are the ranks resetting tomorrow?
ZaedynFel wrote:
I played Halo for around 3 and a half hours today and had nine 3v4s. Three of them started as 3 versus 4, which is just completely unacceptable, and I was on the team w/ three for 6 of the games. I even had times where I had two 3v4s in a row. Matchmaking desperately needs to get fixed, because running into this type of completely broken matches makes people stop playing the game, and that's not even taking the ghost melees, blank shots, heavy aim, disappearing rockets, thrust melees, and server disconnects into account.

To improve matchmaking, first off, don't start a game as a 3v4; it's really that simple. Second, as the game developers, figure out a way to tell if somebody scrolled through their menu to press leave game/dashboarded out or just disconnected, and penalize the people who purposefully quit out much more. Third, provide more incentives to not quit out of matches, such as the way Halo Reach does it with credit rewards. Fourth, ban repeat offenders by IP/Xbox and not just account, so that they can't just hop on an alt or a smurf. Finally, if a player is quitting out of a designated competitive playlist, such as HCS, don't derank the people unfortunate enough to be on her/his team, unless they're in a fireteam.
We never start a game 3v4. If a game starts 3v4, that means someone left during the map loading.

The game waits till there's 4v4 before going to load, but if someone leaves during load, there's nothing we can do.

Also, knowing whether or not they went to the menu to leave the match vs. disconnected doesn't help because savvy players just pull the plug or dashboard, and they're just as bad as any other quitter. We can't tell the difference between a network problem and you pulling your ethernet cable.

As for not deranking, any not deranking results in easy exploits, even if you're not in a fireteam (social engineering, etc.). If someone leaves early, we treat the rest of the leavers as forfeiting and they lose points as if they lost rather than the full penalty.
If somebody leaves the match before the game clock starts, then the match should be cancelled. Players should not be forced be play a match with such a crippling disadvantage. Also, you can still penalize the players who went to the menu to leave the match moreso than other disconnects. I very much doubt that players high up in the HCS playlist would quit out of matches on their main and risk serious deranking and a possible ban just to satisfy other solo q-ers. It's hard to organize such a thing anyway if they are not in the same fireteam, and with the current settings players can just as easily exploit the system through searching at the same time to try and get on opposite teams, and then teamkill/suicide/quit out to help the other person as it would be if there weren't any penalties for losing 3v4s. Exploiting the system couldn't even be done consistently with the ban chance and MMR/CSR loss.
Also, you can still penalize the players who went to the menu to leave the match moreso than other disconnects.
People would just pull their cable / turn off their WiFi so they take the lighter penalty
# 1 maps are very small i feel traped in a box playing on these maps i feel like they did not take any time making these maps

#2 strong hold is very Boring if i want to play CTF why cant i just play that ranked im forced to play strong hold

3# in halo 3 we had the option to vote for a new map if we did not like the one chosen that was a great feature

Last comment please give us some maps worth while instead of these Big box maps
PopTart715 wrote:
@ZaedynFel

What time are the ranks resetting tomorrow?
Usually late morning, 10am-ish.
What time zone?
PopTart715 wrote:
What time zone?
Saw on Twitter 10 Pacific if everything's up and running. That'd be noon Central,
Thanks!
Thank you for fixing it where we could find games champ high . my next wish is for more BR swat. And what about for s#!ts and giggles some good ol fashion SWATguns (shotguns) . and a veto system. 1 br vote 1 pistol vote 1 random vote.
Also 30points csr is too much up and down. Simplify down to 10 point system and it will equal out alot of point distribution problems. Example. 10 wins of 1xp per game wins then run into smurfs and lose 15 to 20 . . . doesnt make people want to play anymore. Give players incentive on playing.

Ps. I just went down 18 points for a tie game and my friend arcvnite went up on other team....
The original version of Breakout NEEDS to return. It's been a little over 6 months since the overhaul, and I'm sure almost everyone preferred the original. The old version had a certain spirit to it, it was a unique new gamemode to Halo that made you play and think differently. It was extremely competitive and Breakout had a whole community behind it. A majority of the people who played Breakout, primarily played Breakout. On the other hand, I see nothing competitve about the current version. You can take out 2, almost 3 spartans with your magnum easily because of the extended clip, radar makes you much more aware of your surroundings, which destroys part of what made the original a different experience in comparison to other gamemodes. Capping the flag takes almost NO skill whatsoever. You have full shields so it's much easier to rush the flag, and on top of that, you bring it back TO YOUR OWN SPAWN. It isn't challenging in the slightest considering the maps aren't that big. Next, SHOTGUNS would've been one of my last choices if the gamemode HAD to change. It just isn't a fun combo to have to fight people with who also have shotguns. My final point is that there was NO reason to change it in the first place! If it was for "low player population", so what? You killed an entire community. I remember seeing competitions and tournaments for Breakout before the change, now I don't see any of that. And even if it was to boost the player count, I feel like less people play it now because nobody likes it anymore! (One last thing, if the original did return, I would remove spartan charge. It can be kinda cheep when it's a one hit kil).
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