Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

Matchmaking Feedback Update – June 11

OP ZaedynFel

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UPDATE
Nothing new this week, but thought I'd leave one last HCS MMR ranking since the season roll is this week. This time it's based on the average MMR across all 4 HCS game modes and only includes players who have played over 100 games this season

ranks



HCS and Team Arena

We have long talked about getting back to having only one core 4v4 ranked experience, and the time has finally come. Starting with our next season, we will be moving our final HCS settings over to the Team Arena list and moving the Team Arena list over to a new Social list called Core Play.

So to re-state, next season you will not see an HCS playlist in Ranked, but the Team Arena list will have all the loadouts, maps, modes, and settings for the current HCS season.

Meanwhile, there will be a new playlist in Social called Core Play that will be very similar to what we now have in Team Arena. We are still finalizing the exact maps and modes that we are going to carry over, but we are focusing on retaining the best experiences from Team Arena. This list will start as a rotational and whether we keep it permanently will depend on how well it does.

The goal is to stop splitting our Ranked audience between two core competitive 4v4 experiences, and in addition make it clear where players transitioning over to Ranked can find the core experience. On the social side, we would like to provide a core 4v4 experience as well, as an obvious option to transition to after Quick Play.

Note that the new Ranked Team Arena playlist will NOT be using MMRs from the current HCS playlist. It will be using MMRs from the original Team Arena list. Because Team Arena has been around much longer than the HCS list, most players will find they have a significantly higher Rank in the Team Arena playlist compared to the HCS one.

We are aiming to roll the season the week towards the end of the week of June 25th since the next week is a holiday for the team.


All Onyx Players Start in Diamond

With TrueSkill2 being stricter and with the changing population dynamics of the Ranked playlists, we are going to shift where we let players start for the next season.
The highest Rank players can start at will be Diamond 3. Onyx and Champ players will then work their way up from there.

In addition, the minimum Rank for being a Champ will just be the minimum Onyx Rank of 1500.

This allows us to align with our definition of Champ players being the top 200 Onyx players, while also requiring players to put in some games to prove they deserve the ranks we expect them to get.

HCS Playlist Player Ranks

Since the ranks have been inflated, it’s been difficult this season to trust the usual leaderboards. To help offset this, here are the top 10 players who have played at least 50 matches this season in the HCS playlist.

ranks

Playlist Popularity
Super Fiesta
Slayer
Warzone
Heroic Warzone Firefight
Action Sack
Quick Play
Shotty Snipers
Big Team Battle
Legendary Warzone Firefight
Infection
SWAT
HCS 2018
Team Arena
Doubles
Mythic Warzone Firefight
Warzone Assault
Free-for-All
Elimination
H1 Anniversary
What is the future of the Slayer playlist? Will it be getting HCS maps and settings?
Quote:
having only one core 4v4 ranked experience
Wait I might be missing something, isn't there going to be 4v4 Slayer and 4v4 Team Arena now?

I really like the idea of moving to a much more streamlined playlist offering. Other games generally offer two different core queues (ranked and social) as well as maybe 1-2 other modes and I think this could work well for Halo as long as there was also robust custom game options and maybe weekend playlists for things like griffball, action sack, fiesta, swat.
ZaedynFel wrote:
All Onyx Players Start in DiamondWith TrueSkill2 being stricter and with the changing population dynamics of the Ranked playlists, we are going to shift where we let players start for the next season.
The highest Rank players can start at will be Diamond 3. Onyx and Champ players will then work their way up from there.

In addition, the minimum Rank for being a Champ will just be the minimum Onyx Rank of 1500.

This allows us to align with our definition of Champ players being the top 200 Onyx players, while also requiring players to put in some games to prove they deserve the ranks we expect them to get.
Let me preface this by saying I am not opposed to revised/improved ranks or Trueskill 2. But something w/ MMR seems off (and I'm not talking about CSR inflation) and I hope it gets the attention it deserves, if needed.

You posted a couple MMR plots that were interesting- MMR not responding how I would anticipate if functioning correctly at the high end. The clearest case is laid out in the following link:

FFA vs Doubles MMR//

MMR trends down over a large sample size, despite a very high win rate in one of the game's most competitive playlists. There were other examples posted, but this is the most complete data set. In my opinion, this isn't how MMR should be functioning- there is not a realistic window for the player to improve and rank up. I'm obviously not looking at the raw data, but it seems like widespread problem. Perhaps it is something already being addressed. If not, it is worth noting that the player in the linked case would not rank up in the new season despite winning >80% of their games.

I've seen enough push back on the forums, Twitter, etc. telling players they were previously "boosted" or they aren't as good as they thought- in this case (and others) the evidence strongly suggests otherwise. I suspect that there is already some recognition of this, as you qualify the top players list in HCS w/ those having played more than 50 games - perhaps acknowledging that in addition to CSR inflation, there are a the number of fresh accounts, etc. currently in champ that may not have had the negative MMR influences other accounts have. *** Actually, re: the last comment, the HCS list provided does not remotely mesh with the leaderboards on Waypoint.
Wow. I can't believe that the Team Arena playlist, the marquee Halo playlist, will no longer have fundamental aspects of long standing Halo weapons and gameplay, like the Assult Rife. Also gone are fundamental aspects of Halo 5 multiplayer, like Ground Pounds and Spartan Charge. I understand that the "pro" community and the uber-competative players don't want these things, which is why I'm glad they have their playlist: HCS. But now the average longtime Halo player, who wants the benefits of ranked matchmaking, is thrown aside. A social, rotational playlist? For the marquee Halo matchmaking experience!? This is bad form 343. I feel that you are going to regret this.
It would be nice to have spartan charge and ground pound available as movement options in HCS, while still doing no damage.

Edit: FFA should also incorporate HCS settings. The game mode could be greatly improved with the new radar and absence of assault weapons.
Interesting that the final decision was to start off the max rank at D3 and not 1600 (as seemed like it was the original intention), but it should be fun.

Also, since Team Arena is basically being merged with HCS, while at the same time being moved over to social, can we get ranked snipers to fill in that gap left in the ranked playlist rotation?
I like the move, but would vote for having social team arena as a permanent playlist. Quick play is great, I would love to have that option for team arena permanently as well.
Hoping a mod or someone from 343 could tell me if my rank in Slayer is boosted or not? I finally hit diamond 1. Been playing halo 5 since it first came out but this is the first multiplayer shooter I ever sat down and really played. Lowest rank I have been is bronze 1 in Slayer so to see myself work my way up to diamond 1 is a huge accomplishment for me but I feel it might be tainted by inflation. So curious to know what my slayer mmr rating is.
I'm all for this move, but I think the HCS name of the ranked playlist and the Team Arena names should of been keep. I like the HCS name (unless you call it MLG) for the playlist as it makes it crystal clear what to expect in it. Team arena also is a great name for a soical playlist as when I think of it I think if slaying and objective stuff. I'm not really feeling the name "coreplay" at all. It doesn't explain what's really in it to me, but that's me.

@Ronn Swanson I'm sorry bro, but I don't know if I'd call Team Arena the marquee playlist anymore. At one time sure, but ever since the HCS playlist came in, that's been the playlist for pros/hardcores etc. Team Arena just became a ranked slayer and objective playlist. Also judging by the popularity of it, most people that played it went to HCS and/or Tesm Slayer. I know HCS is only spot higher right now, but Team Arena has been falling for a while. I feel your pain bud as i know it sucks when your ranked playlist goes to soical, or gobe completely but who knows what will happen in the future.
Good move. I count 19 playlists on the list here. Way too many for the population.
Is there a reason why you're moving it to Social instead of keeping it ranked? I remember some people were complaining about not having a Social objective playlist and now they're not going to have a ranked one, lol.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Is there a reason why you're moving it to Social instead of keeping it ranked? I remember some people were complaining about not having a Social objective playlist and now they're not going to have a ranked one, lol.
HCS has objective gametypes
Wow. I can't believe that the Team Arena playlist, the marquee Halo playlist, will no longer have fundamental aspects of long standing Halo weapons and gameplay, like the Assult Rife. Also gone are fundamental aspects of Halo 5 multiplayer, like Ground Pounds and Spartan Charge. I understand that the "pro" community and the uber-competative players don't want these things, which is why I'm glad they have their playlist: HCS. But now the average longtime Halo player, who wants the benefits of ranked matchmaking, is thrown aside. A social, rotational playlist? For the marquee Halo matchmaking experience!? This is bad form 343. I feel that you are going to regret this.
Who said it was rotational?
Syxnrgy wrote:
Who said it was rotational?
It's literally in the first post:
ZaedynFel wrote:
This list will start as a rotational and whether we keep it permanently will depend on how well it does.
I’m a little bit disappointed that we couldn’t just get a ranked Objective playlist (feat. CTF, Strongholds, Oddball, & Assault) as a replacement for the ranked Team Arena, but I guess you guys have your reasons (I simply disagree with them). And while using the “Team Arena” name for the HCS playlist was something I supported in the past — that was during a time when you still had access to Ground Pound and Spartan Charge within that playlist -- now, I can’t say I really support that decision because I feel that the “HCS” label properly identifies the playlist and provides a clear reason to anyone who plays it for why two basic Spartan Abilities are absent. Why not call it "HCS Arena"?

This decision to do away with the regular Team Arena playlist and creating the Core Play social rotational one does have me wondering if you'd give more consideration to adding one non-slayer based objective to each map within the permanent Quick Play playlist.

  • Coliseum (Promethean) = Slayer & CTF
  • Truth (Covenant) = Slayer & Oddball
  • Plaza (Human) = Slayer & Strongholds
This way the Quick Play playlist gains a little more variety while maintaining the map simplicity that keeps it fairly easy for newer players to navigate, but also gives them some experience with a few prominent Halo 5 non-slayer based objectives. Anyways, since the HCS (aka Team Arena) playlist is going to be the only permanent playlist still offering access to these modes on the regular I think this could be another method to ensure people can experience those modes on a more regular basis and without the HCS settings. It also wouldn't necessarily take away from the social rotational Core Play playlist because that playlist, I assume, would include all the developer maps and it doesn't limit the fireteam size to only two players (like Quick Play does); plus, it wouldn't have the HCS settings of Team Arena.

It’s interesting that you’ve chosen to start players with a max CSR of 1300 after placement. I understand the thought process behind it and I support that decision. I also like that the top 200 Onyx players (1500+ MMR) will earn the Champ label instead of having to reach a particular CSR limit within the Onyx tier first. Another decision I fully support. I’ll be curious to see if you alter the +/- 1 & +/- 15 to something more robust for the seasonal roll like I discussed (and you responded to) in my post within the previous feedback thread. I personally hope you do.

As usual, keep up the good work Mr. Menke and 343i team. I love having the more accurate TS2 within Halo 5! Thank you for your continued effort to maintain Halo 5.

Good move. I count 19 playlists on the list here. Way too many for the population.
I count 16 weekday playlists with the potential for 18 total playlists over the weekend depending on if they have two weekend Warzone options.

Ranked:
  • (1) Slayer
  • (2) SWAT
  • (3) HCS is becoming "Team Arena"
  • (4) Doubles
  • (5) FFA
  • (6) Elimination
Social:
  • (7) Super Fiesta
  • (8) Quick Play
  • (9) BTB
  • (10) Infection
  • (11) Featured Rotational: Action Sack (maybe it gets replaced by the new rotational social playlist called "Core Play" next which is basically the old ranked Team Arena turned rotational social)
  • (12) Featured Rotational: Shotty Snips (it replaced Anniversary Throwback which is the most fun H5 playlist IMO)
Warzone:
  • (13) Warzone
  • (14) Heroic Warzone Firefight
  • (15) Legendary Warzone Firefight
  • (16) Warzone Assault (I wonder if it will receive consideration to become a weekend only playlist?)
  • (17/18) Weekend Option(s): Mythic Warzone Firefight and/or Warzone Turbo
I'm all for this move, but I think the HCS name of the ranked playlist and the Team Arena names should of been keep. I like the HCS name (unless you call it MLG) for the playlist as it makes it crystal clear what to expect in it. Team arena also is a great name for a soical playlist as when I think of it I think if slaying and objective stuff. I'm not really feeling the name "coreplay" at all. It doesn't explain what's really in it to me, but that's me.

@Ronn Swanson I'm sorry bro, but I don't know if I'd call Team Arena the marquee playlist anymore. At one time sure, but ever since the HCS playlist came in, that's been the playlist for pros/hardcores etc. Team Arena just became a ranked slayer and objective playlist. Also judging by the popularity of it, most people that played it went to HCS and/or Tesm Slayer. I know HCS is only spot higher right now, but Team Arena has been falling for a while. I feel your pain bud as i know it sucks when your ranked playlist goes to soical, or gobe completely but who knows what will happen in the future.
The name is so there's less confusion as players transition over from Social or Slayer. This way it's clear where to go next. If we named it HCS or MLG, it could seem more intimidating than it really is. I've played it as a Gold player and found it fine, so I don't see a reason to scare folks off which is usually what happens with that type of naming.

On the other hand, the HCS players will be able to find it just fine.
Hoping a mod or someone from 343 could tell me if my rank in Slayer is boosted or not? I finally hit diamond 1. Been playing halo 5 since it first came out but this is the first multiplayer shooter I ever sat down and really played. Lowest rank I have been is bronze 1 in Slayer so to see myself work my way up to diamond 1 is a huge accomplishment for me but I feel it might be tainted by inflation. So curious to know what my slayer mmr rating is.
Not boosted, they're in sync.

We did change the Ranks recently to reflect the all-time life of the playlist. This means you are better than when you started, and better than around 85% of all players who have ever played in that list.

In previous seasons, we instead calibrated against only the current population, which meant that if you were only improving at the same rate as everyone else, you'd never go up.

This way, you go up as long as you get better.
ZaedynFel wrote:
All Onyx Players Start in DiamondWith TrueSkill2 being stricter and with the changing population dynamics of the Ranked playlists, we are going to shift where we let players start for the next season.
The highest Rank players can start at will be Diamond 3. Onyx and Champ players will then work their way up from there.

In addition, the minimum Rank for being a Champ will just be the minimum Onyx Rank of 1500.

This allows us to align with our definition of Champ players being the top 200 Onyx players, while also requiring players to put in some games to prove they deserve the ranks we expect them to get.
Let me preface this by saying I am not opposed to revised/improved ranks or Trueskill 2. But something w/ MMR seems off (and I'm not talking about CSR inflation) and I hope it gets the attention it deserves, if needed.

You posted a couple MMR plots that were interesting- MMR not responding how I would anticipate if functioning correctly at the high end. The clearest case is laid out in the following link:

FFA vs Doubles MMR//

MMR trends down over a large sample size, despite a very high win rate in one of the game's most competitive playlists. There were other examples posted, but this is the most complete data set. In my opinion, this isn't how MMR should be functioning- there is not a realistic window for the player to improve and rank up. I'm obviously not looking at the raw data, but it seems like widespread problem. Perhaps it is something already being addressed. If not, it is worth noting that the player in the linked case would not rank up in the new season despite winning >80% of their games.

I've seen enough push back on the forums, Twitter, etc. telling players they were previously "boosted" or they aren't as good as they thought- in this case (and others) the evidence strongly suggests otherwise. I suspect that there is already some recognition of this, as you qualify the top players list in HCS w/ those having played more than 50 games - perhaps acknowledging that in addition to CSR inflation, there are a the number of fresh accounts, etc. currently in champ that may not have had the negative MMR influences other accounts have. *** Actually, re: the last comment, the HCS list provided does not remotely mesh with the leaderboards on Waypoint.
I answered this is the old thread.

The Ranks are different as expected because players that sit on their current inflated ranks won't go down.

HCS is not one of the lists affected by the issue.
What is the future of the Slayer playlist? Will it be getting HCS maps and settings?
It won't be getting HCS settings no. As the most popular Ranked playlist and the #2 playlist overall, it's more popular than any HCS-settings list has ever been by an order of magnitude.

But we will try and move the Slayer Forge maps over. This takes a bit of time because they need to be setup and play-tested with the current Slayer settings / loadouts / common weapons on map, etc.
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