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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – June 11

OP ZaedynFel

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ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Ok I have an idea. Let's keep CSR to a points system. So if you win, add up total kills. So if you went for example 15-7, thats 8 CSR points. Then lets add .5 points for every assist. So say you went 15-7 with 4 assists, you go up 10 CSR. Then, we can add .1 for all medals obtained. And if you are on the losing team, the kills you get can help you lose less points. With a cap 20 CSR points gained for a win, and the lowest being 2 gained if you played a horrible game. Like if you went 3-14. And same for if you lose. Maximum of 20CSR loss for a completley bad game and 2 CSR loss if you had a good game. If anyone could elaborate or other ideas to throw in, let's hear em!! Or if you think it sucks, let's hear that too!!
maybe use the placement for example i am the first of the winning team i get a plus 5 on my CSR gain and so on
Unfortunately neither of these approaches will get you accurate measures of skill unless you account for how strong your opponents are compared to the rest of the population. Having high stats against the worst players doesn't mean anything.Likewise, having average stats against great players also doesn't mean you're average.

Those methods will do terrible at actually predicting who will win the match, and predicting your kills and deaths.

TrueSkill2, on the other hand, is doing an amazing job at predicting who will win each match, and how many kills and deaths each player will have. So we are already accurately measuring how good each player is.
Unfortunately TS2 is terrible to measure skill because many smurf are one tier above the main
I have not seen this. Show me an example. Every case I've seen the smurf has been within an expected gap from the main.
look at page 38, a platinum 6 (now diamond 3) with a smurf champion
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Ok I have an idea. Let's keep CSR to a points system. So if you win, add up total kills. So if you went for example 15-7, thats 8 CSR points. Then lets add .5 points for every assist. So say you went 15-7 with 4 assists, you go up 10 CSR. Then, we can add .1 for all medals obtained. And if you are on the losing team, the kills you get can help you lose less points. With a cap 20 CSR points gained for a win, and the lowest being 2 gained if you played a horrible game. Like if you went 3-14. And same for if you lose. Maximum of 20CSR loss for a completley bad game and 2 CSR loss if you had a good game. If anyone could elaborate or other ideas to throw in, let's hear em!! Or if you think it sucks, let's hear that too!!
maybe use the placement for example i am the first of the winning team i get a plus 5 on my CSR gain and so on
Unfortunately neither of these approaches will get you accurate measures of skill unless you account for how strong your opponents are compared to the rest of the population. Having high stats against the worst players doesn't mean anything.Likewise, having average stats against great players also doesn't mean you're average.

Those methods will do terrible at actually predicting who will win the match, and predicting your kills and deaths.

TrueSkill2, on the other hand, is doing an amazing job at predicting who will win each match, and how many kills and deaths each player will have. So we are already accurately measuring how good each player is.
Unfortunately TS2 is terrible to measure skill because many smurf are one tier above the main
I have not seen this. Show me an example. Every case I've seen the smurf has been within an expected gap from the main.
look at [lgndofhalo3's post on] page 38, a platinum 6 (now diamond 3) with a smurf champion
Added link.
Keep MMR or whatever you have for Trueskill 2. But to say it's terrible? The way I see it. You're gonna get exposed at some point. Cause if you are a gold player with a team of onyx your more than likely not gonna have great stats. So you will rank up painfully slow. And it's not like they'll play on that team all the time. So eventually they'd be exposed. Cause if they're not that skilled a playerthey will lose heavily and lots of CSR in big chunks until they are back to the rank they are. T2 factors in a lot but not a lot of factors at the same time. Lag issues, how many hrs a person been playing, getting killed out of spawn, ur batteries for controller died. Idk. I heard to give advice and as soon as someone at 343 takes a dump on it immediately. Then why ask if it's not welcome? Cause the way it is now expecting players to be near flawless to rank up is not working. I can't play better players if I can't even stay in that higher tier for more than 2 games. Check my games, and see how much I get when I win and when I lose. I'm sorry but something is broken. Played against diamonds as a plat and barely had my CSR go up or not at all. Stop acting like people are whining. Or make it all social with one ranked playlist. Problem solved there.
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Ok I have an idea. Let's keep CSR to a points system. So if you win, add up total kills. So if you went for example 15-7, thats 8 CSR points. Then lets add .5 points for every assist. So say you went 15-7 with 4 assists, you go up 10 CSR. Then, we can add .1 for all medals obtained. And if you are on the losing team, the kills you get can help you lose less points. With a cap 20 CSR points gained for a win, and the lowest being 2 gained if you played a horrible game. Like if you went 3-14. And same for if you lose. Maximum of 20CSR loss for a completley bad game and 2 CSR loss if you had a good game. If anyone could elaborate or other ideas to throw in, let's hear em!! Or if you think it sucks, let's hear that too!!
maybe use the placement for example i am the first of the winning team i get a plus 5 on my CSR gain and so on
Unfortunately neither of these approaches will get you accurate measures of skill unless you account for how strong your opponents are compared to the rest of the population. Having high stats against the worst players doesn't mean anything.Likewise, having average stats against great players also doesn't mean you're average.

Those methods will do terrible at actually predicting who will win the match, and predicting your kills and deaths.

TrueSkill2, on the other hand, is doing an amazing job at predicting who will win each match, and how many kills and deaths each player will have. So we are already accurately measuring how good each player is.
Unfortunately TS2 is terrible to measure skill because many smurf are one tier above the main
I have not seen this. Show me an example. Every case I've seen the smurf has been within an expected gap from the main.
look at [lgndofhalo3's post on] page 38, a platinum 6 (now diamond 3) with a smurf champion
Added link.
I show both of those accounts as having Champ level MMR.

MMR on first account: 1726
MMR on second account: 1857

I'm also showing the first account has had actual worse Performances than the second, but still, they are both Champs.

So no problems here?
Keep MMR or whatever you have for Trueskill 2. But to say it's terrible? The way I see it. You're gonna get exposed at some point. Cause if you are a gold player with a team of onyx your more than likely not gonna have great stats. So you will rank up painfully slow. And it's not like they'll play on that team all the time. So eventually they'd be exposed. Cause if they're not that skilled a playerthey will lose heavily and lots of CSR in big chunks until they are back to the rank they are. T2 factors in a lot but not a lot of factors at the same time. Lag issues, how many hrs a person been playing, getting killed out of spawn, ur batteries for controller died. Idk. I heard to give advice and as soon as someone at 343 takes a dump on it immediately. Then why ask if it's not welcome? Cause the way it is now expecting players to be near flawless to rank up is not working. I can't play better players if I can't even stay in that higher tier for more than 2 games. Check my games, and see how much I get when I win and when I lose. I'm sorry but something is broken. Played against diamonds as a plat and barely had my CSR go up or not at all. Stop acting like people are whining. Or make it all social with one ranked playlist. Problem solved there.
Your MMR is 1103 (Plat 5). You have just under 70% vs. mid-Plat, which puts you high-Plat, possibly Diamond going off just win%

Your kills per minute vs. mid-Plat is 2.5. The average Diamond player does 2.7, so 2.5 is too low for a Diamond generally.

So you statistically look like a high Plat.

You haven't played vs. any teams that average Diamond level in the last 20 games or so. When I dig deeper in to your past to find games vs. Diamond teams, I see you have 2.11 kills per minute vs. low Diamond, which is consistent with the average mid to upper Plat Player.

Diamond players average 2.5 kills per minute vs. other Diamonds.

So your rank seems about right.
ZaedynFel wrote:
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Ok I have an idea. Let's keep CSR to a points system. So if you win, add up total kills. So if you went for example 15-7, thats 8 CSR points. Then lets add .5 points for every assist. So say you went 15-7 with 4 assists, you go up 10 CSR. Then, we can add .1 for all medals obtained. And if you are on the losing team, the kills you get can help you lose less points. With a cap 20 CSR points gained for a win, and the lowest being 2 gained if you played a horrible game. Like if you went 3-14. And same for if you lose. Maximum of 20CSR loss for a completley bad game and 2 CSR loss if you had a good game. If anyone could elaborate or other ideas to throw in, let's hear em!! Or if you think it sucks, let's hear that too!!
maybe use the placement for example i am the first of the winning team i get a plus 5 on my CSR gain and so on
Unfortunately neither of these approaches will get you accurate measures of skill unless you account for how strong your opponents are compared to the rest of the population. Having high stats against the worst players doesn't mean anything.Likewise, having average stats against great players also doesn't mean you're average.

Those methods will do terrible at actually predicting who will win the match, and predicting your kills and deaths.

TrueSkill2, on the other hand, is doing an amazing job at predicting who will win each match, and how many kills and deaths each player will have. So we are already accurately measuring how good each player is.
Unfortunately TS2 is terrible to measure skill because many smurf are one tier above the main
I have not seen this. Show me an example. Every case I've seen the smurf has been within an expected gap from the main.
look at [lgndofhalo3's post on] page 38, a platinum 6 (now diamond 3) with a smurf champion
Added link.
I show both of those accounts as having Champ level MMR.

MMR on first account: 1726
MMR on second account: 1857

I'm also showing the first account has had actual worse Performances than the second, but still, they are both Champs.

So no problems here?
Why was his main account's CSR sitting at Platinum 6 after 160 games this season with an 80% win percentage and even now he sits at only Diamond 3 after 177 games (+17) with still an 80% win percentage? If his Elimination MMR on his main account is in fact 1726 as you say, and I trust that it is (is that per the combined modes: Extermination, Breakout1, & Breakout2?), why isn't his CSR properly being reflected as an Onyx/Champ after so many games? It should have only taken him 14 additional games or so to reach the Onyx level after initially placing at Diamond 3 (given an MMR around 1726), but did he even place at Diamond 3? Nope. He placed at Diamond 1 which means his early seasonal MMR must have been around Diamond 5 (1400-1449 MMR). Maybe it was within that range for the Extermination mode (his last mode before placing) while being much higher for the other two modes, but I certainly cannot say for sure.

I guess I'm just really confused by what his CSR is doing by not properly catching up to his actual 1726 MMR; especially, considering his win percentage. Is this related to the rare issue you spoke about previously that can affect a few individuals (special occasions); however, I thought you said there was a fix being put into place to address that (was that fix independent to the player or the playlist or a global fix?). Or is this related to the fact that multi-mode playlists aren't adjusting properly via a combined MMR? My understanding is that whatever the last mode you played in prior to placing will dictate your initial CSR. If this is what’s affecting him I must ask why hasn't he been able to rise up above a Diamond 3 after so many additional games since placement? It's not as if he's only played 10-25 total games under the Elimination playlist under his main account.
I wonder if there has been any significant population drop due to frustration with rank lock in this new system.

If there was how will 343 address it?
I wonder if there has been any significant population drop due to frustration with rank lock in this new system.

If there was how will 343 address it?
There has not been a significant population drop. Population has increased since.
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Ok I have an idea. Let's keep CSR to a points system. So if you win, add up total kills. So if you went for example 15-7, thats 8 CSR points. Then lets add .5 points for every assist. So say you went 15-7 with 4 assists, you go up 10 CSR. Then, we can add .1 for all medals obtained. And if you are on the losing team, the kills you get can help you lose less points. With a cap 20 CSR points gained for a win, and the lowest being 2 gained if you played a horrible game. Like if you went 3-14. And same for if you lose. Maximum of 20CSR loss for a completley bad game and 2 CSR loss if you had a good game. If anyone could elaborate or other ideas to throw in, let's hear em!! Or if you think it sucks, let's hear that too!!
maybe use the placement for example i am the first of the winning team i get a plus 5 on my CSR gain and so on
Unfortunately neither of these approaches will get you accurate measures of skill unless you account for how strong your opponents are compared to the rest of the population. Having high stats against the worst players doesn't mean anything.Likewise, having average stats against great players also doesn't mean you're average.

Those methods will do terrible at actually predicting who will win the match, and predicting your kills and deaths.

TrueSkill2, on the other hand, is doing an amazing job at predicting who will win each match, and how many kills and deaths each player will have. So we are already accurately measuring how good each player is.
Unfortunately TS2 is terrible to measure skill because many smurf are one tier above the main
I have not seen this. Show me an example. Every case I've seen the smurf has been within an expected gap from the main.
look at [lgndofhalo3's post on] page 38, a platinum 6 (now diamond 3) with a smurf champion
Added link.
I show both of those accounts as having Champ level MMR.

MMR on first account: 1726
MMR on second account: 1857

I'm also showing the first account has had actual worse Performances than the second, but still, they are both Champs.

So no problems here?
Why was his main account's CSR sitting at Platinum 6 after 160 games this season with an 80% win percentage and even now he sits at only Diamond 3 after 177 games (+17) with still an 80% win percentage? If his Elimination MMR on his main account is in fact 1726 as you say, and I trust that it is (is that per the combined modes: Extermination, Breakout1, & Breakout2?), why isn't his CSR properly being reflected as an Onyx/Champ after so many games? It should have only taken him 14 additional games or so to reach the Onyx level after initially placing at Diamond 3 (given an MMR around 1726), but did he even place at Diamond 3? Nope. He placed at Diamond 1 which means his early seasonal MMR must have been around Diamond 5 (1400-1449 MMR). Maybe it was within that range for the Extermination mode (his last mode before placing) while being much higher for the other two modes, but I certainly cannot say for sure.

I guess I'm just really confused by what his CSR is doing by not properly catching up to his actual 1726 MMR; especially, considering his win percentage. Is this related to the rare issue you spoke about previously that can affect a few individuals (special occasions); however, I thought you said there was a fix being put into place to address that (was that fix independent to the player or the playlist or a global fix?). Or is this related to the fact that multi-mode playlists aren't adjusting properly via a combined MMR, but whatever the last mode you played prior to placing your CSR? If so, I must ask why hasn't he been able to rise up above a Diamond 3 after so many additional games since placement? It's not as if he's only played 10-25 total games under the Elimination playlist under his main account.
No, it's not related to that rare issue. The rare issue affects MMR, not CSR.

The original question that led to this was MMR-oriented, in which case this looks fine.

I'll look into why the CSR isn't synching in this case. Might be an issue with Elimination.
ZaedynFel wrote:
I wonder if there has been any significant population drop due to frustration with rank lock in this new system.

If there was how will 343 address it?
There has not been a significant population drop. Population has increased since.
Increased in ranked playlists or in the game overall? I'll admit, I'll be surprised if it was in ranked, but I can definitely see overall, as I know quite a few people who have been playing the last few weeks because of the community playlist that haven't in months. Good playlist by the way 👍
ZaedynFel wrote:
I wonder if there has been any significant population drop due to frustration with rank lock in this new system.

If there was how will 343 address it?
There has not been a significant population drop. Population has increased since.
Increased in ranked playlists or in the game overall? I'll admit, I'll be surprised if it was in ranked, but I can definitely see overall, as I know quite a few people who have been playing the last few weeks because of the community playlist that haven't in months. Good playlist by the way 👍
I mean the MLG tournament just happened and halo had an announcement at e3 which is going to bump population. Also I think this forum promotes a bit of a fish bowl about how everyone is hating or loving the ranking system. I bet the majority of people don't really care and just are having fun playing games.
ZaedynFel wrote:
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Ok I have an idea. Let's keep CSR to a points system. So if you win, add up total kills. So if you went for example 15-7, thats 8 CSR points. Then lets add .5 points for every assist. So say you went 15-7 with 4 assists, you go up 10 CSR. Then, we can add .1 for all medals obtained. And if you are on the losing team, the kills you get can help you lose less points. With a cap 20 CSR points gained for a win, and the lowest being 2 gained if you played a horrible game. Like if you went 3-14. And same for if you lose. Maximum of 20CSR loss for a completley bad game and 2 CSR loss if you had a good game. If anyone could elaborate or other ideas to throw in, let's hear em!! Or if you think it sucks, let's hear that too!!
maybe use the placement for example i am the first of the winning team i get a plus 5 on my CSR gain and so on
Unfortunately neither of these approaches will get you accurate measures of skill unless you account for how strong your opponents are compared to the rest of the population. Having high stats against the worst players doesn't mean anything.Likewise, having average stats against great players also doesn't mean you're average.

Those methods will do terrible at actually predicting who will win the match, and predicting your kills and deaths.

TrueSkill2, on the other hand, is doing an amazing job at predicting who will win each match, and how many kills and deaths each player will have. So we are already accurately measuring how good each player is.
Unfortunately TS2 is terrible to measure skill because many smurf are one tier above the main
I have not seen this. Show me an example. Every case I've seen the smurf has been within an expected gap from the main.
look at [lgndofhalo3's post on] page 38, a platinum 6 (now diamond 3) with a smurf champion
Added link.
I show both of those accounts as having Champ level MMR.

MMR on first account: 1726
MMR on second account: 1857

I'm also showing the first account has had actual worse Performances than the second, but still, they are both Champs.

So no problems here?
Why was his main account's CSR sitting at Platinum 6 after 160 games this season with an 80% win percentage and even now he sits at only Diamond 3 after 177 games (+17) with still an 80% win percentage? If his Elimination MMR on his main account is in fact 1726 as you say, and I trust that it is (is that per the combined modes: Extermination, Breakout1, & Breakout2?), why isn't his CSR properly being reflected as an Onyx/Champ after so many games? It should have only taken him 14 additional games or so to reach the Onyx level after initially placing at Diamond 3 (given an MMR around 1726), but did he even place at Diamond 3? Nope. He placed at Diamond 1 which means his early seasonal MMR must have been around Diamond 5 (1400-1449 MMR). Maybe it was within that range for the Extermination mode (his last mode before placing) while being much higher for the other two modes, but I certainly cannot say for sure.

I guess I'm just really confused by what his CSR is doing by not properly catching up to his actual 1726 MMR; especially, considering his win percentage. Is this related to the rare issue you spoke about previously that can affect a few individuals (special occasions); however, I thought you said there was a fix being put into place to address that (was that fix independent to the player or the playlist or a global fix?). Or is this related to the fact that multi-mode playlists aren't adjusting properly via a combined MMR, but whatever the last mode you played prior to placing your CSR? If so, I must ask why hasn't he been able to rise up above a Diamond 3 after so many additional games since placement? It's not as if he's only played 10-25 total games under the Elimination playlist under his main account.
No, it's not related to that rare issue. The rare issue affects MMR, not CSR.

The original question that led to this was MMR-oriented, in which case this looks fine.I'll look into why the CSR isn't synching in this case. Might be an issue with Elimination.
The original question was CSR oriented because we can't see the MMR but we can suppose it if after 160 games with win ratio of 80% you are still platinum 6
Another thing can you watch this game https://www.halowaypoint.com/it-it/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/8a2f8a69-23aa-44ab-a3e2-670c36fa988c/players/nbk%20darkwarlock?gameHistoryMatchIndex=10&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=All from my point of view and my friend maru? Because all the map was not loaded (no light)
Halo 2,3 and even reach had better ranking systems. Why not use those as a guide. I honestly don't think I will get the next halo if the ranking system is the same, especially if the campaign is like halo 5, the most boring campaign in my opinion. A huge draw for halo is the competition and if you don't get credit for winning games to rank up that defeats the whole purpose. Why not use the mmr as the visible rank. The csr seems pointless and throws everything off. Oh and kills per minute just seems ridiculous as a main factor in judging skill level. How about don't predict winners.
RILEY11684 wrote:
Halo 2,3 and even reach had better ranking systems. Why not use those as a guide. I honestly don't think I will get the next halo if the ranking system is the same, especially if the campaign is like halo 5, the most boring campaign in my opinion. A huge draw for halo is the competition and if you don't get credit for winning games to rank up that defeats the whole purpose. Why not use the mmr as the visible rank. The csr seems pointless and throws everything off. Oh and kills per minute just seems ridiculous as a main factor in judging skill level.
This is the exact same system as Halo 3, just more precise.

Halo Reach's Arena system was an unmitigated disaster and promoted lone wolfing at any cost, regardless of wins. There was no teamwork in that team based playlist.

We have an accurate ranking system. You don't get to just rank up for winning. You have to prove to the system that you have gotten better and deserve to increase in rank. It's not designed to be a system to grind, that defeats the purpose of putting you at your skill rank. It's not designed to do anything but be factual about your skill and where you fall in the Bronze to Champ spectrum.

They don't use MMR as your visible rank because MMR can change drastically from game to game if you improve significantly or do very poorly. CSR is more stable and does not move as wildly from game to game.

Quote:
How about don't predict winners.
There needs to be something to build a matchmaker around. In a perfect world, every match that the matchmaker puts together is so evenly matched that there's a 50/50 chance for either team to win. However that's not possible now so there's some wiggle room.
How do I link a game of mine I played to the forum? (Excuse my lack of knowledge for this.)
How do I link a game of mine I played to the forum? (Excuse my lack of knowledge for this.)
Go through your game history and find the game - you can either right click on the "View Game Details" link and copy the address form there, or click the link and then copy the URL from your address bar. You're not Marine level on Waypoint yet so you can't make a clickable link, but you can just paste the text here
@Stickerboy Thank you😊
I am asking this on behalf of one of my friends:

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-gb/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/service-records/arena/players/mike3141

As you can see from his 4 Champions in Slayer, Doubles, FFA and Swat, he is a pretty high tier player, but for some reason his MMR for elimination is stuck at Diamond 2-3, despite carrying his team in almost every match (whether they win or lose) for a period of 71 games now this season. If you go into his game history he often outperforms people ranked above him (Even Champions) and also beats Champions on the enemy team. He has also ranked Onyx in previous seasons of Elimination/Breakout so he is good at the playlist.

My question is why his MMR can't go up? He is very frustrated because despite playing really well he is not going up.
Hi Dr Menke. This post probably got lost in the thread, so I'd like to bump it. I see a little bit above that you mentioned there is possibly a problem with the sync between MMR and CSR of Elimination. I would appreciate your feedback on this.
Thank you.
I am asking this on behalf of one of my friends:

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-gb/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/service-records/arena/players/mike3141

As you can see from his 4 Champions in Slayer, Doubles, FFA and Swat, he is a pretty high tier player, but for some reason his MMR for elimination is stuck at Diamond 2-3, despite carrying his team in almost every match (whether they win or lose) for a period of 71 games now this season. If you go into his game history he often outperforms people ranked above him (Even Champions) and also beats Champions on the enemy team. He has also ranked Onyx in previous seasons of Elimination/Breakout so he is good at the playlist.

My question is why his MMR can't go up? He is very frustrated because despite playing really well he is not going up.
Hi Dr Menke. This post probably got lost in the thread, so I'd like to bump it. I would appreciate your feedback on this.
Thank you.
there is bug in elmination where your mmr is for example champion but your CSR is still diamond, i think the notice it yesterday
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