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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – June 11

OP ZaedynFel

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First of all, yes I read the Dr.Menke thread on the new trueskill 2.0, and yes I comprehend how it works.

Second of all, I still ask, why do I get penalized with -15 CSR points, when clearly facing higher skilled opponents. it is obvious that I dint do good! Clearly!
Recommended Read
Quote:
  • If your Post-Match MMR is greater than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +15 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -1 CSR for a LOSS.
  • If your Post-Match MMR is less than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +1 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -15 CSR for a LOSS.
Hey Josh,

Since the season has been underway for a while could I know some of my playlist MMRs?

Specifically for Team Arena, Slayer, Swat, and FFA.

Thanks
eLantern wrote:
First of all, yes I read the Dr.Menke thread on the new trueskill 2.0, and yes I comprehend how it works.

Second of all, I still ask, why do I get penalized with -15 CSR points, when clearly facing higher skilled opponents. it is obvious that I dint do good! Clearly!
Recommended Read
Quote:
  • If your Post-Match MMR is greater than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +15 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -1 CSR for a LOSS.
  • If your Post-Match MMR is less than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +1 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -15 CSR for a LOSS.
yes I still understand this...

what I don't understand, how my MMR should suffer that much when I'm Diamond 2.... and get beat by 2 Onyxes, 1 Champ & one unranked smurf, of which 3 of those have been previous Champs.

Thu, I know that my MMR is lower than everybody's.... yes I am the lowest ranked person on that match..... and yes I know I should've lost that match....

But! But! if the system is setting up a match that I will probably lose, why punish me with the full extent of the spectrum?

its ridiculous, I get how the system works... but clearly it still has flaws...

PS -

It has taken ranking to a whole new worthless meaning... people who are Diamond 3s and 4s with accuracy of 33% and using the AR 100% of the time... to Platinum 4's and 5's that basically shot at 65% accuracy and are barely untouchable... then followed by other Plat 4/5 that you can stomp on him like he/she was Silver...

The feel of the game is totally different when you face good players... and to most of the time, the ranks don't even compare.
Anybody have a reason for why the banhammer comes down for no reason or am I not allowed to ask about this glitch either. 3rd time in a week I got hit with the van hammer for idiling in matches. I don’t start matches and idle. All 3 times I have left the game in matchmaking lobby only to return to a banhammer!! Also are we allowed to ask about the noticeable lag that has been happening for the past week. Before you accuse my internet I have two Xbox’s in two different locations with different ISP’s
eLantern wrote:
First of all, yes I read the Dr.Menke thread on the new trueskill 2.0, and yes I comprehend how it works.

Second of all, I still ask, why do I get penalized with -15 CSR points, when clearly facing higher skilled opponents. it is obvious that I dint do good! Clearly!
Recommended Read
Quote:
  • If your Post-Match MMR is greater than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +15 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -1 CSR for a LOSS.
  • If your Post-Match MMR is less than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +1 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -15 CSR for a LOSS.
yes I still understand this...

what I don't understand, how my MMR should suffer that much when I'm Diamond 2.... and get beat by 2 Onyxes, 1 Champ & one unranked smurf, of which 3 of those have been previous Champs.

Thu, I know that my MMR is lower than everybody's.... yes I am the lowest ranked person on that match..... and yes I know I should've lost that match....

But! But! if the system is setting up a match that I will probably lose, why punish me with the full extent of the spectrum?

its ridiculous, I get how the system works... but clearly it still has flaws...

PS -

It has taken ranking to a whole new worthless meaning... people who are Diamond 3s and 4s with accuracy of 33% and using the AR 100% of the time... to Platinum 4's and 5's that basically shot at 65% accuracy and are barely untouchable... then followed by other Plat 4/5 that you can stomp on him like he/she was Silver...

The feel of the game is totally different when you face good players... and to most of the time, the ranks don't even compare.
The game understands that if you face better oppoents that you will do worse and takes its best estimate to how well you do. So you may be expected to go 6 and 14 in that game.

But if you went 5 and 15 which is worse than it predicted your MMR will go down. Now it may only go down about 1 point but because you MMR is now lower than at the beginning of the match then you will go down the full 15. So while that feels like crap your actual skill rank probably didn't take that huge of a hit and you will go back up shortly. So it's not punishing you for losing to people you should have. It's adjusting your CSR rank in line with what your MMR did.

Now if you were more than about 2 tiers above your MMR then even if you increases your MMR, but it didn't increase so that it was within 2 tiers of your CSR, you will only gain 1 CSR since the game wants to display a correct skill rank instead of an inflated one. This works the other way to. If you were much lower than your MMR then you will only lose 1 CSR even if your MMR goes down.

It's a very cut and dry system that hurts egos and can be frustrating to play. Especially with the population issues that only make it worse. However, compared to the feel good ladder system we had before I find that ranks actually mean something. Besides the d3 bubble I have found that most ranks match up. There are some exceptions and with only anecdotal evidence making claims with percentages have no meaning.

I get that this ranking system is frustrating to play. The only recommendation I have is to stop caring about some icon on your screen and enjoy the close, nail biting games instead.
tonedef56 wrote:
Anybody have a reason for why the banhammer comes down for no reason or am I not allowed to ask about this glitch either. 3rd time in a week I got hit with the van hammer for idiling in matches. I don’t start matches and idle. All 3 times I have left the game in matchmaking lobby only to return to a banhammer!! Also are we allowed to ask about the noticeable lag that has been happening for the past week. Before you accuse my internet I have two Xbox’s in two different locations with different ISP’s
If you have ban related questions; take it to the ban thread linked below. Before you claim you weren't idling during those matches I'll remind you that every one can view your match history and review the game footage if they want too.
eLantern wrote:
First of all, yes I read the Dr.Menke thread on the new trueskill 2.0, and yes I comprehend how it works.

Second of all, I still ask, why do I get penalized with -15 CSR points, when clearly facing higher skilled opponents. it is obvious that I dint do good! Clearly!
Recommended Read
Quote:
  • If your Post-Match MMR is greater than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +15 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -1 CSR for a LOSS.
  • If your Post-Match MMR is less than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +1 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -15 CSR for a LOSS.
yes I still understand this...

what I don't understand, how my MMR should suffer that much when I'm Diamond 2.... and get beat by 2 Onyxes, 1 Champ & one unranked smurf, of which 3 of those have been previous Champs.

Thu, I know that my MMR is lower than everybody's.... yes I am the lowest ranked person on that match..... and yes I know I should've lost that match....

But! But! if the system is setting up a match that I will probably lose, why punish me with the full extent of the spectrum?

its ridiculous, I get how the system works... but clearly it still has flaws...

PS -

It has taken ranking to a whole new worthless meaning... people who are Diamond 3s and 4s with accuracy of 33% and using the AR 100% of the time... to Platinum 4's and 5's that basically shot at 65% accuracy and are barely untouchable... then followed by other Plat 4/5 that you can stomp on him like he/she was Silver...

The feel of the game is totally different when you face good players... and to most of the time, the ranks don't even compare.
You don't know what you MMR impact was from the match, so how are you insisting that your MMR "...suffered THAT much..." when you only know that your post-match MMR was below your pre-match CSR which resulted in earning a -15 CSR for the match outcome. That alone doesn't indicate that your MMR took some amazingly significant negative impact from the outcome. It's entirely possible that your post-match MMR ended-up being 1 point below your pre-match CSR which resulted in a -15 CSR adjustment. It also might just be that your MMR had been below your CSR for awhile with that match's outcome not affecting your MMR much; nevertheless, because your post-match MMR is below your pre-match CSR you get a -15 CSR adjustment.

EDIT UPDATE: So I took some time to look at your gaming history. It looks like you ranked in this season at Platinum 3, so that means that at that particular point in time your MMR was actually somewhere between the 1200-1249 range (aka Diamond 1). Since then you not only converged your CSR to that Diamond 1 MMR, but you temporarily improved your MMR to the point where your CSR was able to reach Diamond 3 for a brief period of time before oscillating around that Diamond 1 MMR. You've been up and down a few times between Diamond 1 and Diamond 2, before finding yourself sitting at Platinum 6. This is all pretty reflective of an average MMR of Diamond 1.

Now, I don't want to pretend like I don't think there could be a better method for adjusting CSR because I thought there might be a better way and have brought it up before, but it wouldn't be much different from the current system because the point of the system should be to converge your CSR to your MMR and then maintain it within a fairly tight tolerance (+/- 100 MMR).

PS: I couldn't disagree with you more regarding your belief that CSRs are now worthless. The visual ranks (aka CSRs) are much more representative of a player's skill (aka MMR) then ever before, but yes... there will be some varieties of skill amongst some visual ranks even now (especially those within the Diamond 3+ range) primarily because of the need to converge CSR to MMR post-placement.
QX wrote:
The game understands that if you face better oppoents that you will do worse and takes its best estimate to how well you do. So you may be expected to go 6 and 14 in that game.

But if you went 5 and 15 which is worse than it predicted your MMR will go down. Now it may only go down about 1 point but because you MMR is now lower than at the beginning of the match then you will go down the full 15. So while that feels like crap your actual skill rank probably didn't take that huge of a hit and you will go back up shortly. So it's not punishing you for losing to people you should have. It's adjusting your CSR rank in line with what your MMR did.

Now if you were more than about 2 tiers above your MMR then even if you increases your MMR, but it didn't increase so that it was within 2 tiers of your CSR, you will only gain 1 CSR since the game wants to display a correct skill rank instead of an inflated one. This works the other way to. If you were much lower than your MMR then you will only lose 1 CSR even if your MMR goes down.

It's a very cut and dry system that hurts egos and can be frustrating to play. Especially with the population issues that only make it worse. However, compared to the feel good ladder system we had before I find that ranks actually mean something. Besides the d3 bubble I have found that most ranks match up. There are some exceptions and with only anecdotal evidence making claims with percentages have no meaning.

I get that this ranking system is frustrating to play. The only recommendation I have is to stop caring about some icon on your screen and enjoy the close, nail biting games instead.
I think your understanding of how the +/- 1 and +/- 15 CSR is being applied is incorrect. It seems like you have a similar understanding to what Chimera30 had previously... before Josh provided clarity here. Here is the beginning of the communication trail that led to Josh's clarification. In order to get a better understanding yourself you can follow the back-and-forth communication between Chimera30 and myself. Our conversation covered two pages with my last response coming after Josh chimed in.
I think the CSR updates should just clamp the update to between 1 and 15. In other words: if your MMR changed by 5, update by 5. If it changed by 42, clamp it back down to 15. Or if it changed by -15 on a win, clamp it back up to +1.

I think the straight 1 and 15 is frustrating to a lot of people, and providing some variation to that might help a little.

- - -

The other thing a lot of people are missing is that MMR is actually 2 numbers: a mean skill, and a variance from that mean.

In other words, my MMR could be 1267 +/- 50. So I could have a 1217 game, and it might drop my mean MMR to 1266. As long as I don't have, let's say, over 50% of my games at 1217 skill, I should hover right around 1267. If I start having a bunch of really bad games, my mean skill is going to go down, but now the system isn't quite sure of my skill, so it increases the variance. So after a streak of poor games, my skill is now 1240 +/- 60.

However, if I keep (consistently) performing at a 1217 level, the system is going to recognize that is my new skill level, and my MMR is going to change to be 1217 +/- 30 because it is more confident because I kept consistently performing at that skill level.

The same logic applies to really good games.

(Numbers are arbitrary.)
QX wrote:
Hey Josh,

Since the season has been underway for a while could I know some of my playlist MMRs?

Specifically for Team Arena, Slayer, Swat, and FFA.

Thanks
1454, 1808, 1758, 2110
QX wrote:
eLantern wrote:
First of all, yes I read the Dr.Menke thread on the new trueskill 2.0, and yes I comprehend how it works.

Second of all, I still ask, why do I get penalized with -15 CSR points, when clearly facing higher skilled opponents. it is obvious that I dint do good! Clearly!
Recommended Read
Quote:
  • If your Post-Match MMR is greater than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +15 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -1 CSR for a LOSS.
  • If your Post-Match MMR is less than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +1 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -15 CSR for a LOSS.
yes I still understand this...

what I don't understand, how my MMR should suffer that much when I'm Diamond 2.... and get beat by 2 Onyxes, 1 Champ & one unranked smurf, of which 3 of those have been previous Champs.

Thu, I know that my MMR is lower than everybody's.... yes I am the lowest ranked person on that match..... and yes I know I should've lost that match....

But! But! if the system is setting up a match that I will probably lose, why punish me with the full extent of the spectrum?

its ridiculous, I get how the system works... but clearly it still has flaws...

PS -

It has taken ranking to a whole new worthless meaning... people who are Diamond 3s and 4s with accuracy of 33% and using the AR 100% of the time... to Platinum 4's and 5's that basically shot at 65% accuracy and are barely untouchable... then followed by other Plat 4/5 that you can stomp on him like he/she was Silver...

The feel of the game is totally different when you face good players... and to most of the time, the ranks don't even compare.
The game understands that if you face better oppoents that you will do worse and takes its best estimate to how well you do. So you may be expected to go 6 and 14 in that game.

But if you went 5 and 15 which is worse than it predicted your MMR will go down. Now it may only go down about 1 point but because you MMR is now lower than at the beginning of the match then you will go down the full 15. So while that feels like crap your actual skill rank probably didn't take that huge of a hit and you will go back up shortly. So it's not punishing you for losing to people you should have. It's adjusting your CSR rank in line with what your MMR did.

Now if you were more than about 2 tiers above your MMR then even if you increases your MMR, but it didn't increase so that it was within 2 tiers of your CSR, you will only gain 1 CSR since the game wants to display a correct skill rank instead of an inflated one. This works the other way to. If you were much lower than your MMR then you will only lose 1 CSR even if your MMR goes down.

It's a very cut and dry system that hurts egos and can be frustrating to play. Especially with the population issues that only make it worse. However, compared to the feel good ladder system we had before I find that ranks actually mean something. Besides the d3 bubble I have found that most ranks match up. There are some exceptions and with only anecdotal evidence making claims with percentages have no meaning.

I get that this ranking system is frustrating to play. The only recommendation I have is to stop caring about some icon on your screen and enjoy the close, nail biting games instead.
The reason you posted this is ? I did not idle. I don’t quit. I don’t betray? So why after 2,000 something games without being banned Once!!! Was I banned 3 times in the same week for idiling?
QX wrote:
I get that this ranking system is frustrating to play. The only recommendation I have is to stop caring about some icon on your screen and enjoy the close, nail biting games instead.
We both know that's not going to happen. One of the main reasons to even play ranked is for the symbol next to your name and understandably they want it to get as high as possible. Just going off these threads and around the forums, it's clear that a lot of people aren't happy with just having a static rank even if it represents their actual skill level and I agree with their frustrations.

I think most people want their rank bar to move when they get a win, but it's not really motivating to play when you can win multiple games in a row and barely move, but then take one loss and you're back to where you started or even lower. Another problem I noticed is that it can cause confusion when people can beat a team of similar or higher CSR ranks yet they barely move at all or they lose and they drop a ton. There isn't really any good in-game feedback on why that happened, and I think there should be if the game isn't really based on CSR ranks even though I think people associate skill with CSR the most.

I think the solution lies in just giving people a visual indication that their rank is moving after a win even if it's under the same system. I don't know the effective way of doing that, but just off the top of my head would be making the XP between ranks larger which would allow you to get more per win so it looks like you're moving even if it would be the same amount under the current system. All I know is this current system needs improvement.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not purposely bypass the word filter.*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
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Molten isn't bad I think. I do wonder if lottery cannon aka scattershot should be either removed for something else like OS like in doubles, have just the 5 shot or removed completely in favor of something else.

Tyrant actually doesn't play that bad at all. I'm not too big on it personally, but it's ok.

The actual Riptide map is fine. The problem isn't blue room, the problem is it's hard to penetrate it when the other team has a good setup. I've always said sniper shouldn't be where it is unless invis. Is bottom mid. I think invis should be put on bottom mid if sniper is to stay. I would also consider changing Hydra to the grenade launcher as I feel it might play better on the map. I would first just try invis. bottom mid and see how it goes. Blue room isn't nearly as much as a thing with invis. I know it was there once and I thought it worked well, especially at penetrating blue room.
eLantern wrote:
QX wrote:
The game understands that if you face better oppoents that you will do worse and takes its best estimate to how well you do. So you may be expected to go 6 and 14 in that game.

But if you went 5 and 15 which is worse than it predicted your MMR will go down. Now it may only go down about 1 point but because you MMR is now lower than at the beginning of the match then you will go down the full 15. So while that feels like crap your actual skill rank probably didn't take that huge of a hit and you will go back up shortly. So it's not punishing you for losing to people you should have. It's adjusting your CSR rank in line with what your MMR did.

Now if you were more than about 2 tiers above your MMR then even if you increases your MMR, but it didn't increase so that it was within 2 tiers of your CSR, you will only gain 1 CSR since the game wants to display a correct skill rank instead of an inflated one. This works the other way to. If you were much lower than your MMR then you will only lose 1 CSR even if your MMR goes down.

It's a very cut and dry system that hurts egos and can be frustrating to play. Especially with the population issues that only make it worse. However, compared to the feel good ladder system we had before I find that ranks actually mean something. Besides the d3 bubble I have found that most ranks match up. There are some exceptions and with only anecdotal evidence making claims with percentages have no meaning.

I get that this ranking system is frustrating to play. The only recommendation I have is to stop caring about some icon on your screen and enjoy the close, nail biting games instead.
I think your understanding of how the +/- 1 and +/- 15 CSR is being applied is incorrect. It seems like you have a similar understanding to what Chimera30 had previously... before Josh provided clarity here. Here is the beginning of the communication trail that led to Josh's clarification. In order to get a better understanding yourself you can follow the back-and-forth communication between Chimera30 and myself. Our conversation covered two pages with my last response coming after Josh chimed in.
Sorry I may just not be understanding but I don't see where Josh's correction applies. He said that the outcome is always either plus or minus 1 or 15. He chose that system because it keeps players within plus or minus 100 CSR for the most part. Which is equivalent to 2 tiers. However, because of a rank limit this season there are players who are more than 100 CSR below their mmr.

Currently I am d6 or around 1475 in CSR for FFA but my MMR is 2110. If my MMR stays around the same level and I am now deflated won't I always gain 15 for a win and lose 1 for a loss until my CSR is around 100 lower than my MMR. Or is there no actual bubble and I could actually lose 15? Just from my own experience for any playlist where I am over 100 below my MMR I keep only losing 1 for a loss and gaining 15 for a win. However, once I reached around d5 in team arena I've started to go up and down 15 and 1 as I've reached my MMR.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it I think I'm just not seeing what you are correcting. Sorry.
<p></p>
eLantern wrote:
eLantern wrote:
First of all, yes I read the Dr.Menke thread on the new trueskill 2.0, and yes I comprehend how it works.

Second of all, I still ask, why do I get penalized with -15 CSR points, when clearly facing higher skilled opponents. it is obvious that I dint do good! Clearly!
Recommended Read
Quote:
  • If your Post-Match MMR is greater than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +15 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -1 CSR for a LOSS.
  • If your Post-Match MMR is less than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +1 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -15 CSR for a LOSS.
You don't know what you MMR impact was from the match, so how are you insisting that your MMR "...suffered THAT much..." when you only know that your post-match MMR was below your pre-match CSR which resulted in earning a -15 CSR for the match outcome. That alone doesn't indicate that your MMR took some amazingly significant negative impact from the outcome. It's entirely possible that your post-match MMR ended-up being 1 point below your pre-match CSR which resulted in a -15 CSR adjustment. It also might just be that your MMR had been below your CSR for awhile with that match's outcome not affecting your MMR much.

EDIT UPDATE: So I took some time to look at your gaming history. It looks like you ranked in this season at Platinum 3, so that means that at that particular point in time your MMR was actually somewhere between the 1200-1249 range (aka Diamond 1). Since then you not only converged your CSR to that Diamond 1 MMR, but you temporarily improved your MMR to the point where your CSR was able to reach Diamond 3 for a brief period of time before oscillating around that Diamond 1 MMR. You've been up and down a few times between Diamond 1 and Diamond 2, before finding yourself sitting at Platinum 6. This is all pretty reflective of an average MMR of Diamond 1.

Now, I don't want to pretend like I don't think there could be a better method for adjusting CSR because I thought there might be a better way and have brought it up before, but it wouldn't be much different from the current system because the point of the system should be to converge your CSR to your MMR and then maintain it within a fairly tight tolerance (+/- 100 MMR).

PS: I couldn't disagree with you more regarding your belief that CSRs are now worthless. The visual ranks (aka CSRs) are much more representative of a player's skill (aka MMR) then ever before, but yes... there will be some varieties of skill amongst some ranks even now (especially those within the Diamond 3+ range) primarily because of the need to converge CSR to MMR post-placement.
I expressed myself wrong regarding the MMR / CSR portion you had it right regarding the -*CSR* (wording)

I am in agreement with you on everything on how it works... believe me...

I really understand gaining only +1 CSR if I face lower skilled opponents (no complain here either) I know it is not a grind system.

My issue was:

1* Me: Diamond 2 CSR (Lets say 1200 MMR or Diamond 1)
2* facing 2 Onyx Players, 1 Champ Player on the other team
3* get beat up on a game that the system clearly knows I will lose, yet getting - 15 CSR;

maybe the game thought I would do better, but statistically to me it seems illogical, that you subtract a whole lot of CSR from a match like that, where I am facing literally players 1 entire division above mine.PS - Yes I had a string of bad games, yesterday was a horrible day to play where nothing goes your way, I am referring to specifically those cases.
PSS - thanks for taking the time and answering.
Molten isn't bad I think. I do wonder if lottery cannon aka scattershot should be either removed for something else like OS like in doubles, have just the 5 shot or removed completely in favor of something else.

Tyrant actually doesn't play that bad at all. I'm not too big on it personally, but it's ok.

The actual Riptide map is fine. The problem isn't blue room, the problem is it's hard to penetrate it when the other team has a good setup. I've always said sniper shouldn't be where it is unless invis. Is bottom mid. I think invis should be put on bottom mid if sniper is to stay. I would also consider changing Hydra to the grenade launcher as I feel it might play better on the map. I would first just try invis. bottom mid and see how it goes. Blue room isn't nearly as much as a thing with invis. I know it was there once and I thought it worked well, especially at penetrating blue room.
Molten - everybody camps at the sniper platform with the damn Brut Plasma Rifle (consider removing the Plasma Rifle might be fine, still don't like it)
Tyrant - remove the scatter shot (that only works for all my opponents but not me (lottery cannon indeed)) and put OS
Riptide - needs that Camo at the bottom to penetrate the blue room (or atleast encourage flow to challenge the power up), remove hydra
Mercy - remove Saw and Hammer, insert OS or Camo
WhiteCell - I forgot I hate it more than Molten and Tyrant combined, making Riptide a fun map back again :D
LUKEPOWA wrote:
QX wrote:
I get that this ranking system is frustrating to play. The only recommendation I have is to stop caring about some icon on your screen and enjoy the close, nail biting games instead.
We both know that's not going to happen. One of the main reasons to even play ranked is for the symbol next to your name and understandably they want it to get as high as possible. Just going off these threads and around the forums, it's clear that a lot of people aren't happy with just having a static rank even if it represents their actual skill level and I agree with their frustrations.

I think most people want their rank bar to move when they get a win, but it's not really motivating to play when you can win multiple games in a row and barely move, but then take one loss and you're back to where you started or even lower. Another problem I noticed is that it can cause confusion when people can beat a team of similar or higher CSR ranks yet they barely move at all or they lose and they drop a ton. There isn't really any good in-game feedback on why that happened, and I think there should be if the game isn't really based on CSR ranks even though I think people associate skill with CSR the most.

I think the solution lies in just giving people a visual indication that their rank is moving after a win even if it's under the same system. I don't know the effective way of doing that, but just off the top of my head would be making the XP between ranks larger which would allow you to get more per win so it looks like you're moving even if it would be the same amount under the current system. All I know is this current system needs improvement.
I agree with LUKEPOWA here, a lot. I know nothing can be done with 5, but in 6 if this kind of system is going to be in then I think 343I should do what h3 did or something along these lines. Have the experience into the rank as well. You know the Brigadier grade 3 or captain grade 5 for example. So if you're not going to go up an actual rank your going up in something. I might not be explaining myself very well here but I think people know what I mean.

I've also said there should be some kind of team rank, based just on wins and losses as well like it used to be. Truly a TEAM rank. I've said this and ZaedynFel agrees that it would be a good idea but obviously this can't happen in Halo 5 and I know this. Yes you could go back to the other ranking system but not entirely what I mean. Though I do think there would be a lot of people who would prefer that but that's besides the point here.

I just think LUKEPOWA touches a lot of good points. If people win they expect something. I think a lot of people would be fine with not getting as much... whatever if they beat people who are lower ranked then them, but that said, if the player beats people that are higher rank than them they're going to expect to go up more. They don't care if the "system" doesn't think they should. They just beat players ranked much higher then them, so they expect to go up. The bigger question is, if the system thinks they should be beating players ranked much higher than them and they do, why are those players that they beat ranked so high to begin with and why are they ranked so low. those are the kinds of questions people will be and do ask themselves that's the kind of thing that pisses people off and confuses them.

Regardless, all I'm really saying is, I just think LUKEPOWA hits the nail on the head with how a lot of people think with his post.
QX wrote:
He (Josh) said that the outcome is always either plus or minus 1 or 15. He chose that system because it keeps players within plus or minus 100 CSR for the most part. Which is equivalent to 2 tiers. However, because of a rank limit this season there are players who are more than 100 CSR below their mmr.
This is correct.
Quote:
Currently I am d6 or around 1475 in CSR for FFA but my MMR is 2110. If my MMR stays around the same level and I am now deflated won't I always gain 15 for a win and lose 1 for a loss...
Correct.
Quote:
...until my CSR is around 100 lower than my MMR.
Incorrect. You will gain +15 CSR for wins right up until your post-match MMR is less than your pre-match CSR. The moment you MMR (post-match) is less than your pre-match CSR then a win becomes +1 CSR instead of +15 CSR. This is why I've posted this several times...
  • If your Post-Match MMR is greater than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +15 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -1 CSR for a LOSS.
  • If your Post-Match MMR is less than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +1 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -15 CSR for a LOSS.
It's really that cut and dry.
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Just from my own experience for any playlist where I am over 100 below my MMR I keep only losing 1 for a loss and gaining 15 for a win. However, once I reached around d5 in Team Arena I've started to go up and down 15 and 1 as I've reached my MMR.
Team Arena has multiple modes, so it's not as straight forward as a playlist with one mode. Each mode has it's own specific MMR, but your CSR is representative of your performances across all the modes within the playlist. Your mode specific post-match MMR could be noticeably different than your average MMR for the playlist. This can cause some additional confusion when trying to understand the application of the +/-1 and +/- 15 CSR adjustment post match. Perhaps you see a +1 CSR after an Oddball win indicating that your CSR is above your MMR, but the next match is a Slayer win and you earn a +15 CSR adjustment. It likely means that your post-match Oddball MMR was below your pre-match playlist CSR while your post-match Slayer MMR was above your pre-match playlist CSR. Josh has indicated that they were attempting to modify this method so that your mode specific MMR would get applied to a playlist MMR (aka the average MMR between all the modes) and that the playlist MMR would be used post-match in relation to your pre-match CSR for the adjustment. This would keep CSR adjustments more straight forward for these multi-mode playlists.
tonedef56 wrote:
QX wrote:
eLantern wrote:
First of all, yes I read the Dr.Menke thread on the new trueskill 2.0, and yes I comprehend how it works.

Second of all, I still ask, why do I get penalized with -15 CSR points, when clearly facing higher skilled opponents. it is obvious that I dint do good! Clearly!
Recommended Read
Quote:
  • If your Post-Match MMR is greater than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +15 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -1 CSR for a LOSS.
  • If your Post-Match MMR is less than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +1 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -15 CSR for a LOSS.
The reason you posted this is ? I did not idle. I don’t quit. I don’t betray? So why after 2,000 something games without being banned Once!!! Was I banned 3 times in the same week for idiling?
I wasn't replying to you. Comedic Hermit has already replied and answered your question.

LUKEPOWA wrote:
QX wrote:
I get that this ranking system is frustrating to play. The only recommendation I have is to stop caring about some icon on your screen and enjoy the close, nail biting games instead.
We both know that's not going to happen. One of the main reasons to even play ranked is for the symbol next to your name and understandably they want it to get as high as possible. Just going off these threads and around the forums, it's clear that a lot of people aren't happy with just having a static rank even if it represents their actual skill level and I agree with their frustrations.

I think most people want their rank bar to move when they get a win, but it's not really motivating to play when you can win multiple games in a row and barely move, but then take one loss and you're back to where you started or even lower. Another problem I noticed is that it can cause confusion when people can beat a team of similar or higher CSR ranks yet they barely move at all or they lose and they drop a ton. There isn't really any good in-game feedback on why that happened, and I think there should be if the game isn't really based on CSR ranks even though I think people associate skill with CSR the most.

I think the solution lies in just giving people a visual indication that their rank is moving after a win even if it's under the same system. I don't know the effective way of doing that, but just off the top of my head would be making the XP between ranks larger which would allow you to get more per win so it looks like you're moving even if it would be the same amount under the current system. All I know is this current system needs improvement.
I mean yeah I know. But in a perfect world I can dream and people can just forget about ranks. I've constantly stated that the current ranking system creates a lot of frustration and can be annoying to play especially since the playerbase was so used to a handout style ranking system for over two years. I think that moving towards a direction where actual skill is displayed is better, but that doesn't mean that it is as rewarding to play as the previous system was.

Josh has already stated that he would love for there to be more descriptive updates in the post game lobby that could explain why you went up or down what the actual skill level of the team you faced was and how well you were expected to do. Its currently impossible to add that to H5 and not worth the effort since most of 343 is working on Infinite. Now if those features aren't in Infinite then I will be seriously disappointed.

I don't think that increasing the CSR between ranks would do anything because people would be just as mad if their rank was moving 15 up if the CSR between tiers was 750. 2% of the rank is still 2%. I think radar's clamping solution could prove useful but only 343 can run a simulation of that and if it is worse than +/- 1,15 then there is no reason to change. The only way I can think of making the best of two worlds is to introduce a win based xp system similar to H3's. Basically upon winning you would gain a set amount of xp that would increase a rank that doesn't reset and has a very large cap. H3 was 5k wins I believe. It doesn't need to be +1 xp per win it can be more like Reach's was instead so people see a large number increase. However, like previously thats not practical to do in H5 with Infinite coming up and H5 being a 3 year old game that doesn't have too many people working sustain on it.
eLantern wrote:
eLantern wrote:
First of all, yes I read the Dr.Menke thread on the new trueskill 2.0, and yes I comprehend how it works.

Second of all, I still ask, why do I get penalized with -15 CSR points, when clearly facing higher skilled opponents. it is obvious that I dint do good! Clearly!
Recommended Read
Quote:
  • If your Post-Match MMR is greater than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +15 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -1 CSR for a LOSS.
  • If your Post-Match MMR is less than your Pre-Match CSR: you will gain +1 CSR for a WIN or you'll lose -15 CSR for a LOSS.
I expressed myself wrong regarding the MMR / CSR portion you had it right regarding the -*CSR* (wording)

I am in agreement with you on everything on how it works... believe me...

I really understand gaining only +1 CSR if I face lower skilled opponents (no complain here either) I know it is not a grind system.

My issue was:

1* Me: Diamond 2 CSR (Lets say 1200 MMR or Diamond 1)
2* facing 2 Onyx Players, 1 Champ Player on the other team
3* get beat up on a game that the system clearly knows I will lose, yet getting - 15 CSR;

maybe the game thought I would do better, but statistically to me it seems illogical, that you subtract a whole lot of CSR from a match like that, where I am facing literally players 1 entire division above mine.PS - Yes I had a string of bad games, yesterday was a horrible day to play where nothing goes your way, I am referring to specifically those cases.
PSS - thanks for taking the time and answering.
But it doesn't matter that you face stronger opponents. The ranking system takes that into account for predicting how well you will do. The changes in MMR that you get are in respect to whether you win/lose and how well you do vs how you were expected to do. If you did worse than expected because yesterday was a bad day/bad game then since you performed at an MMR level below what it was before the game started then the system is lower your CSR. You could have gone 6-12 but it expected you to go 8-12. Both of those are bad games and probably have you losing, but since you did worse than expected of players your skill level it has to take that into account. The reason for only using +/- 1 or 15 is because it is the best system they have tried to keep players within +/- 100 CSR of their MMR.

Basically it all comes down to how well you do versus how well the game thought you would. Just think of the inverse where you play players in the gold/ low play ranks and go 15-7. Do you deserve to rank up +15 if you were expected to go 22-6?

(Disclaimer: I might have the wrong idea of how the CSR changes work. Elantern will be able to answer this better, but I was bored.)
Molten isn't bad I think. I do wonder if lottery cannon aka scattershot should be either removed for something else like OS like in doubles, have just the 5 shot or removed completely in favor of something else.

Tyrant actually doesn't play that bad at all. I'm not too big on it personally, but it's ok.

The actual Riptide map is fine. The problem isn't blue room, the problem is it's hard to penetrate it when the other team has a good setup. I've always said sniper shouldn't be where it is unless invis. Is bottom mid. I think invis should be put on bottom mid if sniper is to stay. I would also consider changing Hydra to the grenade launcher as I feel it might play better on the map. I would first just try invis. bottom mid and see how it goes. Blue room isn't nearly as much as a thing with invis. I know it was there once and I thought it worked well, especially at penetrating blue room.
Molten - everybody camps at the sniper platform with the damn Brut Plasma Rifle (consider removing the Plasma Rifle might be fine, still don't like it)
Tyrant - remove the scatter shot (that only works for all my opponents but not me (lottery cannon indeed)) and put OS
Riptide - needs that Camo at the bottom to penetrate the blue room (or atleast encourage flow to challenge the power up), remove hydra
Mercy - remove Saw and Hammer, insert OS or Camo
WhiteCell - I forgot I hate it more than Molten and Tyrant combined, making Riptide a fun map back again :D
I think you're confusing Maps.... I think you mean statis not molten and molten not tyrant... statis is a whole other map lol

  • Molten as I said, I'd have np with that.
  • Tyrant I've said
  • Riptide yes needs invis. But removing Hydra completely without adding anything else makes no sense to me what you said
  • Mercy I'd love to remove the saw as it's the most OP weapon in the game by a country mile! with a huge ammo clip and amazing damn accuracy at distance. This weapon seriously needs a Nerf but I know that won't happen so I would just remove it. Hammer is fine (zooming in with me the weapons isn't... But I disgress here) and I think OS or invis would be super OP on that map 4-4. MAYBE OS is ok MAYBE...but definitely not invis.
  • White cell I don't like either, but overall I think it plays fine. I would change the lottery cannon aka scatter to shotgun though.
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