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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – June 19

OP ZaedynFel

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RzR J3ST3R wrote:
stckrboy wrote:
But look NO! You have got to find another way to advance these ranks based around some other factor besides wins....its really honestly a huge folly and extremely unfair and bias to players In most ranked playlist whom play without a team...
This is how Halo has always worked in the past - you win games and rank up, you lose games and rank down.
its bullcrap you know it, this ranking system algorithm sucks and needs totally abandoned and replaced with something that makes sense....
...its a broken system....FIX IT....
I don't have all the answers, I'm sure someone could say it better....but from player to dev...the ranking system concept is awesome, the execution is absolutely terrible....
The ranking system in Halo 5 is the same ranking system used in Halo 3, just visually represented differently. You should read some of the archive posts where Dr. Menke talks about this
For me it's how much ground you lose when you lose a match, I don't have a team so it's very random to win in arena for me...thus ranking up is extremely difficult...im trying to stay positive here, I like the system but it needs significant work....

the system, it's totally abused by top tier players on alternative accounts. As stated in my comment gold was extremely difficult to break out of, so much so that when I finally hit platinum rank it was as if I was playing silver level players again...thats a problem...
I believe it's because gold is bloated with godlike talent, and it would be less prevalent if it wasn't as easy as it is to lose rank....

Also would be nice to encounter less unranked players in a lobby once you become ranked (1-2 max) FFA is terrible for this...

Also, I like the concept of seasons, maybe that's relevant for top tier players chasing onyx and champ.
But most I think would agree for the general population, platinum and below I feel is completely unnecessary to reset your rank...

Or at the very least the impact a loss has on your overall progress for gaining rank be significantly reduced by a factor of at least 75% and leaning on more performance driven factors.

I love halo, I appreciate the response and I will read about how the system works as you've provided...

I'm most of all not trying to shame the developer, but it's the other players ruining this current system...if everything was straight up and it wasn't easy (or free) to make another account...maybe it would work....but that's not the reality of the situation...

I 1v1'd a platinum 4 last night in customs and nearly went kill for kill. But somehow I'm a silver in FFA, what's that saying?

Maybe having an option to opt. Into a ranked season.....example:

Let's say I'm platinum, but I want to play diamonds...maybe having an option to play 5-10 matches against diamonds to see if I can gain that rank, if I don't perform then I remain platinum....

But if I win 50% I get the rank, because when you play players even in skill the ratio should be 1.0kd 50% odds of winning. Perhaps just having that ability to skip into the higher tier ranks would be enough to give the top guys some easier competition because people will be trying to jump into those higher tier ranks and either do well or get smashed....while at the same time relieving some disparity of playing under ranked players in the lower tier ranks....currently if you rank silver your going for gold, except you need to not just beat silver, golds and platinums you nearly need to be approaching diamond level before your out of gold....its silly

I never liked the fact I couldn't play against top tier players just because my rank was lower, this concept alone might help make the ranks become less sweaty which is what makes the top guys create alternate accounts in the first place....
Any performance-based ranking system is going to be horribly manipulated and ruin the game. People will betray for power weapons, hide in corners, weaken teammates deliberately, etc. Wins are the only way to correctly update CSR. Dr. Menke is considering an interesting idea where your MMR (not CSR) could go up after a loss, if you "performed" well. Then you'd play against harder opponents, and have the opportunity for larger CSR gains IF YOU WIN against the better opponents.

If you constantly find yourself leading the team in kills, but losing, in evenly-matched games, you should re-evaluate your play strategy. Maybe you need to stay alive longer, or help your teammates more so they can stay alive.

I agree that smurfing is a huge problem in multiple playlists. but performance-based CSR is not going to fix that.
Ya, if Halo goes to a performance based ranking system in TEAM playlists, I'm done playing any kind of ranked in Halo then. I agree with the above, it will absolutely ruin Halo. I personally have always liked the "sports" approach to Halo. Win as a team, lose as a team. It makes sense too.

I also agree that "smurfing" as the kids call it now... (calling it a second account makes more sense to me) but that's more of a MS issue then 343I. The only way I can see 343 semi combating second accounts is by making it so you have to be a certain level to play ranked. Which all admit, I'm not really big on that idea but at the same time I kind of think it's necessary now.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
stckrboy wrote:
But look NO! You have got to find another way to advance these ranks based around some other factor besides wins....its really honestly a huge folly and extremely unfair and bias to players In most ranked playlist whom play without a team...
Any performance-based ranking system is going to be horribly manipulated and ruin the game. People will betray for power weapons, hide in corners, weaken teammates deliberately, etc. Wins are the only way to correctly update CSR. Dr. Menke is considering an interesting idea where your MMR (not CSR) could go up after a loss, if you "performed" well. Then you'd play against harder opponents, and have the opportunity for larger CSR gains IF YOU WIN against the better opponents.

If you constantly find yourself leading the team in kills, but losing, in evenly-matched games, you should re-evaluate your play strategy. Maybe you need to stay alive longer, or help your teammates more so they can stay alive.

I agree that smurfing is a huge problem in multiple playlists. but performance-based CSR is not going to fix that.
I understand what your saying and maybe I'm all over the map, as there's many aspects that make this system less than ideal...

Let me just say, I think winning should mean something. But not EVERYTHING. Especially if my kills are equal or greater than those of my opponents. If I obviously had a better game performance even at the expense of having 3 under performing teammates, that just as equally could've done their part (most times they dont) in my experience. The difference ive noticed is my deaths will be increased if I have an underperforming team, but if the system is balanced most times won't effect the kills as much...
I acknowledge that there is always room for improvement especially following a loss, but 1 player cannot alone be effected by the actions of 3 others.
1. I have 0% control over their performance
2. I didn't select to be matched with them
Knowing those critical and obvious factors, I can consistently have a stellar performance in say all 10 games and lose rank just as easy as gain it, and the only major difference was my teammates alone...and certainly not as a result of my performance, most games just to run in contention with the enemy team id have to double my typical output of kills just to make the difference up...and I've been on the other end of this as well, I'm sure I didn't play my best game before and resulting in a higher skilled player on my team losing rank at MY hand...

I'm arguing here that performance play a critical part, just as much as wins...as to not unfairly punish a player for factors obviously out of their control...

There a MANY reasons besides just these elements that provide additional examples of why this system just isn't providing the experience were looking for...

I'm sure someone sat down and carved this all out and I'm sure there understanding of the subject is superior to my own. This feedback I'm giving is my first hand experience, I'd like to see things get better that's why I'm here.

Just think about you being a completely new player to halo and you jump into slayer, you get smashed for 8 out of 10 games (assuming this isn't yet your best performance) you rank gold 5, then progressively lose rank until you hit gold 1. Going a bit further let's say you have a relatively consistant performance by having more kills than the enemy team and equal deaths....WHY IS THIS PLAYER LOSING RANK? the honest answer is his team sucks, and if that's not discouraging I don't know what is...halo is saying find a team, if you can or beat it. This system turns players away from halo right out of the gate....when halo should rightfully be rewarding this player for his performance too, and not just a win.

Going even further we could even mention the well known fact that this player likely encountered under ranked players and probably had to overcome that handicap as well...

The ranks are awesome, sick concept....but this feedback should inspire someone to acknowledge the issue and create a solution....im not asking something for nothing here, if I play on the highest level of my game and lose I'd like for my performance to play a factor also...when it's well known that just to have an equal game with a losing team is in fact harder to achieve than it was for the winning team....if I under perform, De-rank me by all means...but not if I'm slaying on the same level as my enemy...
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
stckrboy wrote:
But look NO! You have got to find another way to advance these ranks based around some other factor besides wins....its really honestly a huge folly and extremely unfair and bias to players In most ranked playlist whom play without a team...
This is how Halo has always worked in the past - you win games and rank up, you lose games and rank down.
its bullcrap you know it, this ranking system algorithm sucks and needs totally abandoned and replaced with something that makes sense....
...its a broken system....FIX IT....
I don't have all the answers, I'm sure someone could say it better....but from player to dev...the ranking system concept is awesome, the execution is absolutely terrible....
The ranking system in Halo 5 is the same ranking system used in Halo 3, just visually represented differently. You should read some of the archive posts where Dr. Menke talks about this
Ya, if Halo goes to a performance based ranking system in TEAM playlists, I'm done playing any kind of ranked in Halo then. I agree with the above, it will absolutely ruin Halo. I personally have always liked the "sports" approach to Halo. Win as a team, lose as a team. It makes sense too.

I also agree that "smurfing" as the kids call it now... (calling it a second account makes more sense to me) but that's more of a MS issue then 343I. The only way I can see 343 semi combating second accounts is by making it so you have to be a certain level to play ranked. Which all admit, I'm not really big on that idea but at the same time I kind of think it's necessary now.
Not saying performance alone, just a little more emphasis of how YOU performed play a part in the display of your rank....in addition to winning....

Not trying to change the world, just make things more tolerable for those of us that don't have a team....

I'd like for my rank to be MY rank, not just my teams rank....your right tho, it is in fact a team playlist...but a major portion of this population solo que, we learned this from warzone (god rest her sweet soul)...
You team guys are not the enemy, I'm not trying to turn this into team vs. Solo

Maybe if it was just a small change like how FFA is setup, top 3 advance and bottom 3 the toilet...

Have something in place that makes a consideration to say the top 4 players overall regardless of being on the winning team or not but certainly also reward all players of the winning team a well.

I'm not a kid, I'm 31 and I was playing CE on that giant controller probably just like you...lol

I hope I'm making some sense here...am I the only one that has an issue like this?
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
stckrboy wrote:
But look NO! You have got to find another way to advance these ranks based around some other factor besides wins....its really honestly a huge folly and extremely unfair and bias to players In most ranked playlist whom play without a team...
This is how Halo has always worked in the past - you win games and rank up, you lose games and rank down.
its bullcrap you know it, this ranking system algorithm sucks and needs totally abandoned and replaced with something that makes sense....
...its a broken system....FIX IT....
I don't have all the answers, I'm sure someone could say it better....but from player to dev...the ranking system concept is awesome, the execution is absolutely terrible....
The ranking system in Halo 5 is the same ranking system used in Halo 3, just visually represented differently. You should read some of the archive posts where Dr. Menke talks about this
I'd like for my rank to be MY rank, not just my teams rank....

It is indeed YOUR rank. It's a measure of how effectively you help your team win. If you help your team win more, you'll rank up. If not, you won't. If you find yourself losing games and ranking down, find new ways to win. That usually doesn't actually mean slaying harder for more kills. It usually means working better for your team, staying alive better while still being distracting to the other team, holding key map positions to deny the enemy from moving around the map, and helping your team control power weapons / powerups. If you do those things skillfully, you will rank up. Halo isn't just about looking for kills. It's about playing smart for your team.

Judging from your arena ranks, you could improve your game (and your rank) by paying more attention to all those things I mentioned.
Quote:
Yeah, Social is always a bit schizo. Good players want to "relax" meaning be able to own without much work. Bad players want to be "safe", meaning to not get owned and be able to play.

Right now, it's a sort of compromise between the too. Though I'm considering making it randomly choose between much tighter and much looser than now, so you get some safe and some crazy.
To quote the lighthouse keeper

"gonnae no dae that."

Tried focused as per your suggestion, didn't make a huge amount of difference tbh, although that might be simply down to the servers being utter bum nuggets this Friday/Saturday.
If they start ranking people based on individual performance in team playlists I'm never playing this game again, they already tried this in Reach and it failed horribly. Yesterday I was playing doubles with my friend and we played on Empire, I let him get 4 overshields during the game, obviously he "performed better" so you think he should get a higher rank?
So like I've said in the past, we are testing a new version of TrueSkill that allows us to "account" for your individual performance, but still requires the winning team to have the highest performance.

So if you don't win much, you won't go far, but it will be nicer to you if you at least tried.
Can I just say I'm too dumb to understand any of this XD. But I want to know if Cs r has anything to do with your Kill death ratio?
Currently, no, not at all.

Right now, you go up if you win, and down if you lose. The AMOUNT you go up or down is based on how good your opponents and teammates were.
True Yomi wrote:
Hey Josh, any news on party restrictions?
We've just about got the temporary, stopgap solution in place. If all goes well, we may begin stealth testing very soon (to make sure it works before fulling rolling it out).

Stay tuned.
D M4N8 wrote:
So there were talks about bringing an HCS FFA playlist to Ranked. Whether it it would be a hybrid playlist or just completely replace the current FFA playlist was unclear. I was hoping this was going to happen next season, but there was not mention of this in the Community Update that was released yesterday. Do you know if this is actually going to happen or if it was all talk?
It's not all talk. We are definitely working towards something right now, but I don't have an exact time or details. I think it'll be sooner rather than later, if all goes well.
Sevennn wrote:
Are there any plans to merge Team Arena into the HCS playlist eventually? Reaching champion in Team Arena was almost impossible this season with the exodus of most Onyx players from Team Arena to HCS. We ended up having to have 1 of our friends play on a new account as it was impossible to find games (we'd search for over 20 mins with no match) and even then with the new account it would take quite awhile (4-5 mins).

Also, unrelated and completely random comment. Back months ago they had a rotational social playlist once for FFA Swat, I played around 10-11 games of it and won them all and then I ended up being unable to find any games at all (20 min searching and nothing still), were the matchaking restrictions on social loosened since then?
We are taking a really close look at the health of TA and HCS and want to get them both back up to snuff. Merging is definitely one of the options on the table, but we still have a bit more research to do.

I don't know the answer to the social question actually. I do know that there are no restrictions on social matchmaking outside of ping, which you can loosen if you choose Balanced or Expanded.
Sevennn wrote:
For me social isn't about trying to own without much work, but the amount of effort I put into the games is significantly less. The hidden ranks for social are separate from ranked correct? Because when I'm playing social I'm not really communicating or thinking about the plays I'm making and at times it feels like the people I'm matched with are trying like its Onyx level team arena and all communicating together so we have to actually start trying or we lose 50-30. Though more recently I don't find this to be happening as much.

Best example was early in the games life they had Ranked snipers as a weekend playlist where I tried and got champion. Then later they released Social Snipers and that was by far the hardest experience I ever had trying to play a social playlist. Did they just reuse ranked snipers and rename it? Our preseason stats have been removed from waypoint it seems but at the time of social snipers I checked them and it said I was a champion in "Social Snipers".
They are definitely separate ratings.

BUT, as I've said in this thread and in the past, because of social dynamics, noobs are more likely to play Ranked Snipers (by their own choice, not ours) than Social.

Noobs go to "Ranked" because matchmaking is tight and "Safe"

That leaves only good players in Social, where you all have to sweat because you've scared all the noobs into Ranked.

It's this contradicting irony --- you have to choose your sweat:
  • Ranked? You will sweat if you want high KD, but won't have to carry your team.
  • Social? You may not have to sweat for a high KD since matchmaking is looser and you could get noobs in your match, but you definitely have to sweat to win because you will also have noobs on YOUR team
The social stuff all goes out the window the more noobs we scare over to Ranked.
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