Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – June 26

OP ZaedynFel

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I was wondering about something and this seems like a great place to get feedback, thank you for keeping the communication going with the community.

I was wondering if it would be possible to limit the amount of unranked players in a single match?

I can take a loss and even finish last, but the absolute blowouts need serious attention.

Also is it possible to modify the matchmaking to stop blowout matches in ffa?

You can't stop smurf accounts and their creation, but you can make the point of making one irrelevant...

if it was as simple as whomever wins a match by an excess of 10/15 kills automatically graduates to the next highest rank...it takes FAR TOO LONG for someone who is improperly ranked to get to their correct rank.

I know you rarely hear about the finer points of halo 5 matchmaking. I think halo is an awesome game, I've had tons of fun playing it in any playlist....these are just some things I've encountered and wanted to mention....overall my experience has been pretty fair and balanced for the most part...
Thank you
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
I think they playlist combination idea could be a pretty good one actually, if it works well. Low population is definitely becoming an issue in some of these playlists. It also might be a good way to bring new players into the ranked playlists who previously haven't felt comfortable playing ranked, but once they start playing the playlist in an unranked mode and get more used to it, they may start dabbling in ranked. Also, implementing in this fashion could actually allow people to get ranked in ANY playlist if they love playing it competitively and really want to sweat! Even warzone, super fiesta, or castle wars, for example. That could be really cool, and it also might help mitigate some of the concerns people have about the 6-man WZ restriction discouraging teams from playing together (because they'd be able to grind for rank if they want). I think it'd be very cool to see my Warzone "rank", for example, even though it's not a tournament-competitive gametype.

I suggest first implementing it on a trial basis, to see how it works. Also, I think the biggest challenge here may in the "communication" to the player base. I suspect there will be a lot of people who don't read these thread, and don't understand what's going on. They'll feel like now as social players they're being forced to play against ranked players/ And people will also complain that the ranks mean nothing anymore because you can gain rank for beating social players. Both those complaints are mitigated when you really understand how MMR works, but few people do...

Two suggestions:
  1. Every player should have totally independent MMRs for ranked play and unranked play in a given playlist. If i just want to play HCS socially, I don't want to worry that my Ranked HCS MMR is going to take a hit (which could indirectly affect my CSR later on). Plus, if I'm playing ranked with a coordinated To4, then go solo queue in social with that same MMR, I'm going to get spanked, which won't be fun.
  2. If you're playing social mode, you shouldn't see ANYONE's rank. They should be totally hidden. In fact, if you don't read these threads, you might not ever realize that you're now playing against ranked players while in social playlists, you'll just see a UI change in the playlist selections. Otherwise people will feel like ranks are corrupting the social playlist. If you're playing in "ranked mode" on the other hand, you should see available ranks, plus the "team average MMR" stats that you have previously suggested, so people can get a sense of which team was the "favorite" to win that game. The team average MMRs would use each players ranked or social MMR, depending which mode they were playing.
Anyway, I think it's a potentially very good idea to increase the playlist populations which will improve MM quality for everyone. Just need to try it out (maybe just for one playlist, to start) and see how it goes.
Before I respond, just want to say nice post, well though out :)

(Bold) but those are valid complaints that you put and that people will have. Even if every person playing truly understood how the MMR worked, I don't think it'll matter. A lot of people won't like the idea of playing against ranked people if they just want to play soical and vice a versa. I do honestly believe people won't see ranks as genuine anymore if this happens. Someone could get to champion (using H5 system names) by just playing people who picked soical per session. That doesn't seem right AT ALL! And you know people will think it and say it. There will be a backlash, I can all but guarantee it. I do 100% agree that if this is to be tried then it should be tried in Halo 5 before it's put into Halo 6 and see how it goes.

Also (and this isn't directed at anyone either) I hear people say things like people play the same in soical as they do ranked. I'm sorry, I massively disagree with that, MASSIVELY! Speaking for myself and many people that I know, we most certainly do not play the same. In soical, I don't care if I win, lose, or anything. Most of the time I don't call anything out, nor fo my friends. As long as we have fun, that's all we care about. Sure winning is nice, but it's not the be all end all. I play WAY MORE aggressive in soical then I do ranked. As do many other people I know. Why? Because again we don't care how we do. We're playing for fun, to warm up, whatever.... We're chit chatting most of the time if I'm not playing solo. In ranked though, that's a different story. I'm much more defensive, a support type player. I do call outs, I don't chase anywhere near as much and I'm a lot more cautious when I have a power weapon.

I don't want to say I'm totally against the idea, but I seriously have my doubts. I don't like the idea of ranking up (or down lol) playing against people who aren't in "ranked" I don't like the idea of having teammates who aren't taking it as serious as I know I am.

To me this whole conversation stems from a bigger problem. Why aren't people not interested in playing Halo and/or, why are they leaving so soon after launch and not coming back? Those are the issues you should be dealing with. Things like, low population wouldn't be a problem (at least not right away, every game eventually goes down) if these issues weren't issues.

I personally think the clear cut, "These are Ranked playlists and these are Soical playlists" type system works well. Since Halo 3, it's been my favorite set-up out of ANY game. I like the clear cut set up of it, as do MANY other people. Hence the community crying out wanting that type of set up back, and have you heard of people complaining about it since it's been back? Answer, Nope! Why? Because that's what fans wanted and you gave it to them. Yes, they complain about the ranking system and other stuff but we're not talking about anything like that, we're talking about the set up. Tons of games use that kind of set up, lots of successful ones too and for good reason. Look at Overwatch for example. It has moreless a Soical and Ranked playlist style set-up and it's doing fine with it, as does COD and it's still doing fine (Unfortunately...ugh! Sorry just can't stand that series lol)

My point to this is, I don't think the match making system is really the problem here. Other then the above issues I've mentioned, I think not having this setup at Halo 5 launch hurt and not having all the main playlists at launch also hurt (BTB, Doubles, etc) Again, I'm not against trying something new or different here, just trying to make sure point.
These are really good points. I also agree that the biggest issue is why there's a population problem in the first place. That's not something I remember happening in previous Halos. I mean, I didn't even get to play Halo 3 online until about 3 years after launch and played that pretty much exclusively all the way up until the launch of MCC, and never had any issues finding balanced matches in ranked. Which leads me to assume that there was still a good bit of players across all skill levels in pretty much every playlist (I do recall that it sometimes took a while to find a match in SWAT and sometimes Lone Wolves at the very end) even like 7 years post launch.

I hadn't really thought of the issue of rank being affected by social players. I'm a pretty competitive person, so when I do play social (which is extremely rare) I still play to win just like in ranked. But I know that not everyone does the same. I'd hate to have ranks lose all meaning.
Lazar7666 wrote:
Hey ZaedynFel, (please read to the end) I know CSR inflation was bad in FFA and I do believe you 'fixed' that at somewhat. However whenever someone lags out of a game it can take a very long time to get their CSR back due to small gains in CSR most of the time.

I believe that this could be fixed by simply (I think so anyway) by modifying the current CSR gain/loss in FFA by three to make it so you can regain your CSR without having to play 10-15 games at a high level.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this because to me it seems that CSR deflation due to lagouts is an issue now.

FYI I really like to new search in FFA, it is nice to find games consistently even if I have to wait a bit on expanded.
If we modified the amount of points you get in FFA, we would also have to modify the drop penalty, otherwise it's exploitable. There's no real way around that.

Though I can assure you that FFA is one of our fastest CSR to MMR converging lists, so usually if point gains are slow, it means you've already converged.

Keep in mind that FFA is a lot harder to Rank in now.
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/3c2f42b2-7ec4-4544-9430-ecca132c4653/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=0&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/fd7f6c57-38a1-4c88-858a-d275c7752ea5/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=3&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/a628cc88-7b7c-41f3-84a5-d36a01a50f0b/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=4&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/cee2f8aa-3d03-4efe-b999-b3c5bffc6244/players/a%20numb%20thumb?gameHistoryMatchIndex=6&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=Arena

This is searching focused.
Josh can you explain how any of these are considered to be the best match based on my fire teams skill and connection?
The matchmaker will definitely give you the closest possible match given the people currently searching.

BUT, as discussed in the past, we have an issue where we can't balance both for player to player fairness, and team to team fairness simultaneously. This means, when parties are involved, the matchmaker will give us matches that we can't team balance effectively.

In the case of your first match, the player to player skill gaps were all well within tolerance, and it was an acceptably tight match. The problem, is that because there was a party of 4 in there, we couldn't split them up to create a good match. We had to put all the worst players on your team.

In order to fix this, we are working with the matchmaking team to check for situations like this before matching. But the folks who would need to make this fix are super busy supporting different teams right now, so it's been a little slow going.

EDIT: I will add that despite that, in that first match, it was still 3-2. not terrible?
I was wondering about something and this seems like a great place to get feedback, thank you for keeping the communication going with the community.

I was wondering if it would be possible to limit the amount of unranked players in a single match?

I can take a loss and even finish last, but the absolute blowouts need serious attention.

Also is it possible to modify the matchmaking to stop blowout matches in ffa?

You can't stop smurf accounts and their creation, but you can make the point of making one irrelevant...

if it was as simple as whomever wins a match by an excess of 10/15 kills automatically graduates to the next highest rank...it takes FAR TOO LONG for someone who is improperly ranked to get to their correct rank.

I know you rarely hear about the finer points of halo 5 matchmaking. I think halo is an awesome game, I've had tons of fun playing it in any playlist....these are just some things I've encountered and wanted to mention....overall my experience has been pretty fair and balanced for the most part...
Thank you
Most unranked players already have MMRs from previous seasons, so there's not usually a reason to exclude them. They've usually been ranked, just in previous seasons, so we know how good they are.

In the case of brand new players, we have to be careful not to introduce systematic matching into their experience because it will result in incorrect skill ratings after.

As for blowouts in FFA, this is happening for two reasons:
  • FFA is very skill-based. The better players tend to win. This is because it's unlikely for someone to randomly luck into 25 kills, and is supported in our stats analysis. FFA looks very skill-based in our stats. This means that in order to make really tight matches, we need the MMR skill gaps to be very tight as well.
  • FFA population is lower than it needs to be for us to have enough players available to create very tight MMR gaps. When FFA matches are made, we do the tightest we can within the wait time, but currently, FFA doesn't have enough matching to create the tight matches we need. Onyx players find themselves in Plat matches because there are no other Onyx's searching, etc.
The new season starts Thursday (6th) and includes FFA updates. If those draw enough population, matchmaking will naturally improve.
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