Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – June 5

OP ZaedynFel

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I'm of the opinion that the Arena playlist should be replaced with the HCS playlist, and then perhaps incorporating a social playlist for objective games. I just find it weird that Arena is still around, mainly due to the fact that Arena was originally the unofficial HCS playlist for 2 years. Surely there wouldn't be an issue with that suggestion?
TryHardFan wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
I don't personally mind either way, but TA is the only playlist that has objective gametypes on arena maps, with the classic H5 starting weapons that exist for every other playlist. So if you're removing it, you're basically saying nobody is allowed to play objective gametypes in matchmaking unless you want to play the sweaty HCS playlist.

I think you'll lose a lot of players who will quit playing.
The skirmish game mode in the social playlist exists for a reason. Is that not what players are looking for?
In my opinion just because there is a similar/identical social playlist, that doesn't justify removing the ranked version of said playlist. I personally hate social, I don't like playing just for the sake of playing, I want to have something to work toward (a rank). So I don't think it'd be fair to those who enjoy playing objective gametypes, but maybe not at such a sweaty level as the HCS settings, if you remove their only option to play objective games in ranked.
"completely unfair things, like, always giving just YOU the best teams."

What if we feel the EXACT opposite is happening? Either ranks are the same but my team is by far worse or I'm just simply getting lower ranked teammates. Still advocating for chatty and quiet team search options please and thank you
Yes! It feels like the system thinks that because I'm the highest ranked player in the match, I should apparently be able to get all 50 kills (or 3 flag caps, or all 100 stronghold points) singlehandedly. Like, just because I might be the highest ranked player in a particular match, that doesn't mean I'm actually good. And then I'll look at the stats and see that I might have gotten 20 kills, but my teammates got 7,4,-2, while the other team got 15,13, 11, and 11 (these numbers are completely arbitrary, but it's not far off of what I've experienced). In those cases I'm left thinking, "what more do you want from me?" Instead of having one team that's apparently pretty balanced (the winning team in this example) and one team with one "good" player and 3 "bad" players, would it not be possible to have 2 good and 2 bad on each team so both teams would at least appear to have an equal chance? I mean sure, if you throw a pro player into matchmaking, they might could carry a team singlehandedly, but yet I'm average at best and it feels like that's exactly what the system expects me to do in some of these matchups. I just want the most competitive matches possible, I'd much rather sweat for a win and feel like I've actually accomplished something than just go stomp on people.
Social is still far too sweaty IMO. The only time I can even slightly have casual fun on this game is WZA.
Otherwise it's just a sweaty chore, which is why I'm never really tempted to play, and none of my friends play anymore.

The "ranking system" lost it's charm after about 3 seasons, and then I realized how silly it is to work so hard for a rank that disappears and an emblem no one wants. Looking at some of the new "Leaderboards", it's quite sad how little anyone cares about the Champion grind. (Even more sad that Snipers got removed for some of these playlists that don't have hardly any population).

FFA has needed a refresh for a long time, top FFA players have been complaining about it for over a year. When nothing gets changed, it ends up as a ghost town which it is now. You couldn't pay me $20 to get rated in FFA this month. Maybe try BR starts and add some classic maps, clearly no one likes the current set-up. Switch it up for a season, worst case no one plays it - like right now.

At this point in the games life, nothing is going to make people jump back on by the masses, (other than BR starts on classic maps) which is why I hope this stuff is figured out at launch for Halo 6.
While you are correct on some points, I have to disagree with you on the BR starts. And the overwhelming majority of competitive players would disagree as well. The BR in H5 does not work like it did in H2. The bullet magnetism is very high, but on top of that it's wildly inconsistent in H5.

Example: sometimes it's a 2 shot-1 melee kill, and others it's a 3 shot-1 melee kill. Sometimes it's a 4-shot kill, others it's a 5 shot kill. And the inconsistencies only get worse when you're not on an ideal server. It's similar to the issues with the BR in H3, but even worse.

These things aren't as noticeable when you have a BR vs vs weaker weapons and/or weaker opponents, but when you have a group of high skilled players all starting with a BR, it just becomes an extremely inconsistent weapon, and adds a whole new "randomness" factor into the game. This is why Team Beyond has recently changed their tournament settings to Magnum starts after using BR starts for every H5 tournament they've had in the past. I believe Gamebattles will follow soon as well.

Honestly the H5 magnum is the best loadout weapon in the franchise. I love the BR and wish it were suitable for a loadout weapon, but it's just too different in H5 as compared to the old days. I agree with all your other statements though.
lLockout wrote:
Social is still far too sweaty IMO. The only time I can even slightly have casual fun on this game is WZA.
Otherwise it's just a sweaty chore, which is why I'm never really tempted to play, and none of my friends play anymore.

The "ranking system" lost it's charm after about 3 seasons, and then I realized how silly it is to work so hard for a rank that disappears and an emblem no one wants. Looking at some of the new "Leaderboards", it's quite sad how little anyone cares about the Champion grind. (Even more sad that Snipers got removed for some of these playlists that don't have hardly any population).

FFA has needed a refresh for a long time, top FFA players have been complaining about it for over a year. When nothing gets changed, it ends up as a ghost town which it is now. You couldn't pay me $20 to get rated in FFA this month. Maybe try BR starts and add some classic maps, clearly no one likes the current set-up. Switch it up for a season, worst case no one plays it - like right now.

At this point in the games life, nothing is going to make people jump back on by the masses, (other than BR starts on classic maps) which is why I hope this stuff is figured out at launch for Halo 6.
While you are correct on some points, I have to disagree with you on the BR starts. And the overwhelming majority of competitive players would disagree as well. The BR in H5 does not work like it did in H2. The bullet magnetism is very high, but on top of that it's wildly inconsistent in H5.

Example: sometimes it's a 2 shot-1 melee kill, and others it's a 3 shot-1 melee kill. Sometimes it's a 4-shot kill, others it's a 5 shot kill. And the inconsistencies only get worse when you're not on an ideal server. It's similar to the issues with the BR in H3, but even worse.

These things aren't as noticeable when you have a BR vs vs weaker weapons and/or weaker opponents, but when you have a group of high skilled players all starting with a BR, it just becomes an extremely inconsistent weapon, and adds a whole new "randomness" factor into the game. This is why Team Beyond has recently changed their tournament settings to Magnum starts after using BR starts for every H5 tournament they've had in the past. I believe Gamebattles will follow soon as well.

Honestly the H5 magnum is the best loadout weapon in the franchise. I love the BR and wish it were suitable for a loadout weapon, but it's just too different in H5 as compared to the old days. I agree with all your other statements though.
I agree, I also love the BR, but there'd have to be some pretty major changes made to it for it to be a good starting weapon. And thank you ILockout for this explanation. I normally hear people just talk about how it's too ppowerful or the bullet magnetism being so high, which sound like issues that could be easily fixed with a little nerfing. You're probably the only person I've seen point out the inconsistencies when it comes to how many shots it takes to kill someone and the amount of randomness that'd add to the game.
I think that it is time to decide if the HCS settings are the definitive settings for competitive. If the answer is yes, we must have all the playlist with the same hcs settings (arena, slayer, FFA) and put the actual arena and slayer and ffa under social playlists.
HCS FFA would get quite a bit more players back into it, I'd bet my check on that. Being a solo player, sometimes I'm not 100% into the team matches or just don't want to hook up the mic. But I can't play FFA and stay in tuned with the HCS settings. Plus, who enjoys getting SMG'd, AR'd or even mowed down with a Saw nowadays? Not in ranked!

It would make a great warm up mode for solo players. It would feel more competitive. It would actually fit the "ranked" title it currently has. What could it hurt? I know the population has to be terrible. I've sat searching for 5+ minutes without a match on expanded sometimes.

Also looking forward to the multi shot fix. Had someone literally shooting a mag full auto on me last night in HCS. LRS and BRS too. First time I heard it in the mic I thought it was an SMG.
I don't have problems for the most part with the match making system. Maybe that's because I'm a high diamond/low/mid onyx player I don't know... But when I do it's with my gold friends. We always seem to get matched with all high ranking people (ranked, soical, Warzone doesn't matter) and my gold friends always get butchered :(

I've heard other say this and I agree that I think it's time to decide if the HCS settings are the new competitive settings. I'm honestly still very mixed on HCS settings and I know a lot of others are as well but that's besides the point. I know lots of people who use HCS settings/playlist as there warm up playlist to be honest before going into Slayer. I find the biggest problem with HCS settings (what I'm always hearing) is people say "why didn't I see him on radar? People then tell or remind him or her it's HCS settings and the response​ is always the same "well holy crap, why don't they just remove radar completely!!! at least just try it!" And frankly I don't disagree. Why not try it, any reason?

I also feel (and heard many others echo this) the HCS settings pretty much make Spartan Abilities useless. Now, I'm not going to get into the whole if HCS or Halo in general should have Spartan Abilities debate but what I will say is why even have Spartan Abilities, something that you people (343I) put a lot of time into implementing into the game, to then have then pretty much non-existent now with this new type of radar. I played a good amount of HCS and it's extremely noticeable how people play it differently. You hardly seeing anyone using Spartan Abilities in it for obvious reasons. I think because it's so different and plays so different, it puts off a lot of people which in doing so means less people are playing those playlists and one would think that would mean less people interested in getting into the Halo Esports scene as well. When radar was just off in the past Halo's, it was still the same per say (if you know what I mean) but just meant you had be more aware of your surroundings and communicate even more. I think having this mixed hybrid radar confuses a lot of players and has them still trying to use there radar like they did before. Where as just no radar wouldn't at all, as no radar is no radar! Pretty self-explanatory right lol I'd really like to see a no radar playlist tried, I think it could answer a lot of questions.

If your trying to minimize Spartan Abilities​ use in pro settings then maybe you have a bigger issue on your hands as a whole. Again, why even have them in the frist place if they won't really get used... Maybe things like Spartan Charge, Ground Pound etc need to be looked at and tweaked or maybe even totally reworked instead of how the radar works. I understand that might not happen in Halo 5 but some food for thought. There have been a lot of good discussion on how to tweak these abilities I feel.

One thing I absolutely agree on with the HCS settings are Pistol only starts. I agree so much with them that I want to see this implemented in more playlists even, like Team Slayer. lLockout post on here pretty much says why BR starts don't work in Halo 5 and I couldn't agree more. It's not that I hate autos I don't, but halo (at least 5) plays a lot better when automatics are map pick up weapons instead.

Right now off the bat (minus HCS playlist) there are 8 autos on the map and the game hasn't even started yet!!! (4-4 right..) then you have another 1-3 autos on the map as pick up weapons. Pushing your total to over 10! That to me is nuts. I like the idea of having to go pick up a other weapon. It promotes map movement I feel as well. I think there would be a good chunk of people who would even be ok with a few autos in HCS settings IF and ONLY IF they were map pick up weapons. You could always put some autos in areas of the map where people don't go as much either. Maybe opening up new strategies too, who knows, just a thought right.

Automatics should rip someone apart at close range, and they do in Halo 5. They're automatics after all lol Heck, even games like Doom back in the day (the 1993 version) you started with just a pistol, and then you went and found the other weapons. Also, having pistol only start would make it so there is less clutter on the maps as well. Thinking when the player dies right.

I think pistol only starts with autos being weapon pick ups in more playlists at least needs to be looked at.

A don't think having two FFA ranked playlists is a good idea either in Halo 5. I do think ranked FFA in Halo 5 should be more along the lines of whatever the Esports settings are. Maybe have settings rotational in the playlist like you suggested. If this happens or maybe even regardless, I'd have a soical FFA call it, I don't know...rumble pit ;) in it
would be a mix of Slayer and objective game types. It's clear that 4-4 (of some type) and FFA are the two Esports game modes, and in the future (say at the start of Halo 6) if these game modes have different settings then their counterparts in ranked, then maybe you have two separate playlists. This in off the bat would be a good idea as well.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Effects of Skill-Based Matchmaking I sometimes get questions about how MMR affects matchmaking, and what it would be like to increase or decrease how aggressively we try for tight-skilled matches. Right now, Ranked enforces a certain amount of tightness, whereas Social and “tries” to be just as tight at first, but gives up after waiting too long. Warzone also tries to be tight at first, but gives up faster than Social.

Well if I read that correctly it explains what some people have complained about experiencing, at least in Social, where it appears MM just completely gave up. For Social, going to the "Unable to match" screen seems counterintuitive to an unranked list. Also the higher the number of those screens that appear in any list the worse it is for the game. Players also have the option to just not play that list (or at all) so it just keeps throwing together those who do want to play. Unfortunately at this point in the game's lifespan it seems like Social is often a prospect of being spawn trapped and tea bagged until time runs out or killing a bunch of kids who are so bad it seems like they're almost afk. When the newbs start avoiding it, the players looking for easy kills will too. It seems the best bet for a true social experience is to throw together some customs with friends. When it's played that way the game more closely resembles to old pick up games kids used to play before they counted on a machine to skill match them, and it's almost always fun. I know it doesn't involve MM, but that might be an option you want to promote more vigorously in order to help keep the game going. The Customs hopper was a great step in that direction.
Krog001 wrote:
Hi Josh,

It is not really related to this week's update - but what about letting matches where teammates quit out, not count for your ranking?
You have mentioned in previous posts that you don't really need 10 games to rank a player. When teammates quit out and you get destroyed it really harms your rank! (Solo queing a lot)
Keep up the great work with this communication!
Looking forward to your thoughts on the matter!
We can't make it not count completely, because then you could avoid taking a CSR loss by getting a teammate to quit.

Instead, we don't extra penalize. It's just the usual loss amount since you would have lost the match.

This happens randomly to everyone, so the overall affect doesn't force you below other soloQers.
For the noob, getting stomped on by a pro or getting stomped on by your average Diamond doesn't have much distinction.

It's a subjective thing that 343's stats cannot accomplish by themselves, you need listen to the people who actually play the game.
Yes, very subjective.

I'm a noob myself (consistently Silver), across many games.

I'm personally happier in games where I get owned by Plat instead of Onyx.

When I play with Onyx, and sometimes with the former-Pro players here at work, I feel completely useless, like I can't even do anything. I get killed instantly off spawn. I don't even feel like I'm playing the game. When I get matches like this, I leave because I'm not even playing at that point.

When I play against Platinum, I get a few shots off, a lucky kill here or there. I get owned, but I feel like I'm actually playing the game. When I get matches like this, I stick around a bit longer.

I ran servers for another game for awhile for fun. During the day, we would get less-skilled players. In the evenings we would get super amazing players.

I could play during the day and have fun.

At night, I couldn't play at all. The skill gap top to bottom was so high that I was useless again. I stopped playing at night.

Even when I would play with my friends, I didn't have fun at night.

That's just my personal subjective feeling. I disagree that noobs like me don't care who owns them. There's definitely a difference between Plat and Onyx there, at least to me.
I'm just getting into Halo 5 Guardians multi-player now, though I've been with the Halo franchise itself since Combat Evolved launched. I'm not sure if that makes me qualified to comment or not, but here goes.

I haven't noticed many problems with the rank system so far, although the other night I won two games of SWAT with the highest KDA on my team, and stayed the same rank, then lost one game of SWAT with the second highest KDA on my team and went down a rank. I'm not sure I understand how the ranking algorithms themselves work.

That said, I think a bigger issue than matching players against people of a higher skillset is matching a team of four solo-queuers against a four-man party. Is there anyway to balance that? I wish the UI at least told you which players were in a party and which weren't. I feel you play differently when you know your enemy is actively communicating.

Also frustrating has been BTB. While it's objectively my favorite playlist and has been since Halo 2, I've found lately that I've been getting matched against full eight-person Spartan Companies while my own team is running around like headless chickens.

I appreciate all of the hard work you guys at 343i are putting into balancing the matchmaking and fixing issues even this late into the game's lifespan. Thanks for your dedication, and your communication with the community.
Remove swat,Return snipers playlist in ranked,more maps for FFA
fix your servers!
That said, I think a bigger issue than matching players against people of a higher skillset is matching a team of four solo-queuers against a four-man party. Is there anyway to balance that? I wish the UI at least told you which players were in a party and which weren't. I feel you play differently when you know your enemy is actively communicating.

I suggest you read through the past topics. This has been addressed several times.
Remove swat,Return snipers playlist in ranked,more maps for FFA
Nope; SWAT is too awesome within the Ranked environment.
Social is still far too sweaty IMO. The only time I can even slightly have casual fun on this game is WZA.
Otherwise it's just a sweaty chore, which is why I'm never really tempted to play, and none of my friends play anymore.

The "ranking system" lost it's charm after about 3 seasons, and then I realized how silly it is to work so hard for a rank that disappears and an emblem no one wants. Looking at some of the new "Leaderboards", it's quite sad how little anyone cares about the Champion grind. (Even more sad that Snipers got removed for some of these playlists that don't have hardly any population).

FFA has needed a refresh for a long time, top FFA players have been complaining about it for over a year. When nothing gets changed, it ends up as a ghost town which it is now. You couldn't pay me $20 to get rated in FFA this month. Maybe try BR starts and add some classic maps, clearly no one likes the current set-up. Switch it up for a season, worst case no one plays it - like right now.

At this point in the games life, nothing is going to make people jump back on by the masses, (other than BR starts on classic maps) which is why I hope this stuff is figured out at launch for Halo 6.
Im all for BR (55) starts and definitely want more classic maps. I like truth and all but any of the remastered maps for H2A or Reach would be kick -Yoink- (Lockout is easily on top of that list). As much as I hate to say it, i think the new movement would actually lend itself well to classic maps.

FFA is definitely in need of a refresh. Autos dominate, the maps are stale and the updated ranking has caused a demoralizing plateau effect that isnt even close to what I consider fun.
There's literally only 2 people ranked in the FFA leaderboards. If that's not a huge red flag that something needs to change in that playlist, then I don't know what is.

Edit: I looked at the previous seasons and they all had plenty of people placing so maybe it's a ranking issue, but either way FFA does need an overhaul.
That said, I think a bigger issue than matching players against people of a higher skillset is matching a team of four solo-queuers against a four-man party. Is there anyway to balance that? I wish the UI at least told you which players were in a party and which weren't. I feel you play differently when you know your enemy is actively communicating.

I suggest you read through the past topics. This has been addressed several times.
I will, thanks. Just created my account here last week. Still doing a lot of catching up.
I understand that HCS and Team Arena populations have split in two, but
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
TryHardFan wrote:
Why hasn't Team Arena been officially removed from the ranked playlist? It originally served as the practice grounds for competitive players who wanted to play the official H5 settings. It's outdated now. The HCS playlist has replaced it because it is the new settings.

At least test the removal of the TA playlist. Any remotely competitive player is not going to take the iterations of H5 automatics and splinter nades happily for a ranked game mode. I just find it incredibly ironic why this wasn't accomplished in spite of the goals of preserving the number of game modes in the ranked and social playlists due to low population (because there were about 7 playlists at launch).
I don't personally mind either way, but TA is the only playlist that has objective gametypes on arena maps, with the classic H5 starting weapons that exist for every other playlist. So if you're removing it, you're basically saying nobody is allowed to play objective gametypes in matchmaking unless you want to play the sweaty HCS playlist.

I think you'll lose a lot of players who will quit playing.
I agree with what you're saying about Team Arena exactly! But since we have the Team Slayer playlist already, plus the HCS playlist for competitive play, there's no reason there should be Slayer gametypes in Team Arena. I propose TA is replaced with a Team Objective playlist, which can use a greater mapset and only focus on Strongholds, CTF, Assault but in a ranked format. This should satisfy those who still play Team Arena, and give a reason for the HCS players to play from time to time.

tl;dr - HCS is comp slayer + obj, Team Slayer is vanilla slayer, Team Arena -> Team Objective for vanilla obj!
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