Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – March 13

OP ZaedynFel

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Berzerkuh wrote:
343 fixed the CSR and now tweaked Matchmaking, Thank you finally. Now Onyx and above can get games quicker. But it's funny that 3 names were mentioned about smurfing. Like yeah everyone smurfs but not as much as Crow/Dater, xgn an Swats finest did. Use an abuse. So let's not call out others. mmk :)
We disagree here. I wish they would put in a banhammer that caught obvious smurfs and just launched a papa-smurf graphic instead of the game (along with an automatic rank adjustment) Wishful thinking? Indeed.

By the way, I'm glad people are getting games. The rest of us are seemingly being adjusted down (err... beat down) to make room for the onyx that are no longer making the cut. However, it's like we're still proving last season's CSR which is far less likely to occur; just like the group of formerly low onyx players. Not very fun. Why would we not be proving ourselves against last season's CSR, adjusted per the shift? The only thing then would be getting used to seeing the lower tier which would be alright without getting slammed down into said tier.

If, say two seasons from now, there are less smurfs because there is less pay off since we're all moving down then great. I don't buy that higher levels smurf purely to get games. I would bet they smurf to stomp in most cases (as smurfs smurf at all levels) but I could be wrong. We'll see I suppose.
Will we be able to see any new mp maps soon :)
This system is so dumb, I literally get punished for being good and searching alone. Because the system puts terrible players on my team and considers it balanced. There is absolutely nothing balanced about Proving Grounds right now.
I can't even enjoy playing Proving Grounds because of the randomness of who I match and get on my team.
You're currently a Plat 5 in Proving Ground. (Just a statement of fact in preparation for my next comments.)

In your last 10 games, the ranges of ranks were mostly high Golds to mid Diamonds. There were two Onyx players. Once on your team, once on the opposing team, and a couple mid Golds in one match, one on each team.

The ranks look pretty balanced overall.
And what was the spread of outcomes in those games? That's what we're really talking about here. Matchmaking in a game and population like Halo is far different than say in a chess league, using an earlier analogy. For one, the chess players are not afk for some portion of the game (otb at least) and they are committed to performance. There are effectively no smurfs. Add in the flux in maps and weapon availability that doesn't occur. In short, a chess match is a pure demonstration of skill v skill. In a 4v4 Halo playlist where randos are by far the norm the point should be (a little) less about the appearance of balancing the teams ("randomness") and more about making the match for outcome. I believe this is the goal in part when 343 "reserves the right to tweak MMR." No easy task.

Right now the spread in skill is abnormally high on a focused search. It doesn't appear that way to me with CSR tiers but it is definitely happening. This of course will show in the outcome regardless of who and what he matched against (that lack of regard being again the difference between a purer more level skill competition). It does not suffice to say that they were or appeared balanced on paper (!) which seems to speak in some way to the use of a team average over tighter individual skill requirements to make the team in the first place (at least on a focused search). The changes that made it harder to maintain rank are seemingly exacerbating all of this atm. Our ranks and measured skill will adjust to that last part but so will every force that necessitated it in the first place.

Without greater scrutiny to individual performance in a 4v4 setting (intelligence on an indie's performance in a variety of situations) prior to teaming and then averaging them up I don't see how the "randomness" could ever quite balance effectively; as evidenced by outcome. Right now more than ever a plat 3 could be in the process of eventually adjusting to gold 4 or she may be more like a diamond 3 earning her way back. What makes it into a game is a hotter range than usual. Of course, I may be drunk ;)
I played my games of breakout and most of the times i match teams of 2,3 and 4,50/50 of the times smurfs.Also occasionally while unranked i matches diamonds,onyx and a champ
Am I the only one who can't find games in Team Arena? I've been searching for two days without success... Thinking it might be a problem on my end, but everything else (party chat, other games on XBL, on the computer etc) seems to work fine. From Sweden and been searching expanded for several hours today already...
Thanks. :)
Am I the only one who can't find games in Team Arena? I've been searching for two days without success... Thinking it might be a problem on my end, but everything else (party chat, other games on XBL, on the computer etc) seems to work fine. From Sweden and been searching expanded for several hours today already...
Thanks. :)
depends on what time of day your searching and your search preference,most of the time you cannot find a game on focused,mostly balanced and expanded do.
Am I the only one who can't find games in Team Arena? I've been searching for two days without success... Thinking it might be a problem on my end, but everything else (party chat, other games on XBL, on the computer etc) seems to work fine. From Sweden and been searching expanded for several hours today already...
Thanks. :)
Last few days has been a chore to find games, especially in Proving grounds. Gave up and moved to TA but even then had to open up search to Expanded to get games.....of course doing so just puts you up against teams, higher level players and what I like to call Red Bar Warriors (Thanks Destiny).....At this point I am guessing population is in the gutter or something else hinkey at 343s end.
AgentFordy wrote:
Am I the only one who can't find games in Team Arena? I've been searching for two days without success... Thinking it might be a problem on my end, but everything else (party chat, other games on XBL, on the computer etc) seems to work fine. From Sweden and been searching expanded for several hours today already...
Thanks. :)
Last few days has been a chore to find games, especially in Proving grounds. Gave up and moved to TA but even then had to open up search to Expanded to get games.....of course doing so just puts you up against teams, higher level players and what I like to call Red Bar Warriors (Thanks Destiny).....At this point I am guessing population is in the gutter or something else hinkey at 343s end.
I am having the same issues too! So your not alone with this issue right now :(
AgentFordy wrote:
Am I the only one who can't find games in Team Arena? I've been searching for two days without success... Thinking it might be a problem on my end, but everything else (party chat, other games on XBL, on the computer etc) seems to work fine. From Sweden and been searching expanded for several hours today already...
Thanks. :)
Last few days has been a chore to find games, especially in Proving grounds. Gave up and moved to TA but even then had to open up search to Expanded to get games.....of course doing so just puts you up against teams, higher level players and what I like to call Red Bar Warriors (Thanks Destiny).....At this point I am guessing population is in the gutter or something else hinkey at 343s end.
Probably because you're UK-based. I typically find games very quickly in Team Arena, even searching Focused or balanced. (East coast USA)
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
I want to make sure I correctly understand your future plan... because if I'm getting it, then I have some HUGE complaints and questions for you. If I'm misunderstanding, sorry about that. But it sounds like you're implying that this 'personal rank' and 'team rank' would replace the single CSR number we currently have, and your MMR/CSR adjustment will be affected by your K/D. (I say MMR/CSR because you've explained that CSR converges to MMR with more games played as you "prove" your MMR to the system - so CSR is fundamentally dependent on your MMR)

  1. I think you misunderstand me -- I primarily play solo queue, and if I do play with a fireteam, it's rarely the same specific To4. The game I linked you was solo queue. I fact, I think the two teammates who simultaneously hate-messaged me were probably playing as a party. So if anyone was going to be organized, it should have been them, not me. Although well-organized parties certainly have some advantages, it doesn't require a-priori "organization" to play in a smart manner and contest key map positions to support your teammates, that's called "knowing how to play Halo well," even in solo-queue, and should absolutely factor into your rank."
  2. I used to be stuck at lower ranks, and I could never understand why I was sometimes out-slaying my higher-ranked teammates in objective gametypes. I used to think... "man, why does my onyx teammate suck!?" But then I watched my games in theater from all POVs, watched some pro players on stream, and LEARNED how to play the game smarter, all while in solo-queue.
  3. Please tell me, according to your proposed system, could I lose MMR/CSR to my gold-ranked teammates for that game I linked..?? Despite the fact I outplayed them as evident in theater mode?? Note that the highest ranked person (plat 5) on the enemy team ALSO had the worst K/D on his team - it wasn't just me. Here's a totally separate game where the highest ranked players on BOTH teams also had the worst K/D. In that second example, I'm plat 4, and I go 22-13. My teammate is high onyx (CSR 1869, ranked #671 in the world in Team Arena playlist) and he goes 16-21. So I'm better at plat 4 than the onyx 1869 guy...?? Um, no. Again, this is all solo queue. I see this phenomenon frequently, both on the winning and losing teams. Clearly my Onyx 1869 teammate was doing something better/smarter than I am...
  4. If a higher ranked player stands to lose CSR/MMR in those situations because you decide that individual slaying stats are the prime contributor to wins, rather than combining smart map positioning with good gun skill and situational awareness to help your teammates (even in solo queue), it will be infuriating to me and to many. In fact, the CSR system will become a complete joke. Players will cease trying to win games and instead try to stat-buff themselves, which will lead to lower-quality games for everyone.
  5. Under the proposed system, especially if I always solo-queue, I have reduced incentive to try and win, and greater one to stat-buff. Worse, it will make the CSR experience meaningless for solo-queue players, since I basically can't get a real CSR ('team rank') unless I can find a reliable To4 to always play with.
  6. BTW, I'm very glad to note that the past week of this current season, after 16 months of this game, I FINALLY feel like the CSR ranks are close to accurate. Players who outrank me tend to school me, and vice-versa. Halo5arena.com seems to corroborate that - I win almost every game where my team avg. CSR is higher, and lose almost every game where we're lower. So, thank you very much for making the change reducing the number of games it takes to "prove" your CSR and converge close to your MMR. It really made a huge difference and I finally feel like my rank is a truer indicator of my skill. I still want to evaluate it the rest of the season, but it seems like a massive improvement. Plus, now I can actually try to improve... I can watch how higher ranked players beat me, and try to counter it. But now I'm afraid you are proposing undoing all your great work that has finally paid off into the current system...
Thanks again for your time.
First let me say I totally understand your concerns. They've been my same concerns in ranking for over 12 years, and I wouldn't go this route unless I had more confidence in the approach we're considering than I've seen in the past.

The big question is whether or not the examples you are giving represent the norm, or outliers. According to the data, what you are describing is by far an outlier for solo play. In deep statistical analysis just about all of our games, doing what you give as an example does not win the game (like it also didn't win the game for you). When we observe people playing the game the way you did --- even accounting for complex behaviors beyond KD, and looking at positioning and map control --- we find that for most matches it doesn't help the team win for CTF. Even if you feel it does, and even if it seems to in some matches, the data don't support it. At least, not in solo play.

As you get near the top of competitive play, the story still stays mostly the same. This is because everyone up there already knows the "right thing to do" in CTF, so the main differentiator again becomes KD.

So, again, even if you play the way you think it should be played, you aren't really causing the win any more than randomly, and doing all that complex behavior you described isn't helping statistically as much as just killing more.

That's just what the data are saying. The data just don't support those other behaviors being anywhere near as important. KD is still by far more predictive of who wins. According to the data, in that match, if you had focused more on killing, you would have won. Yes, it's counter intuitive, but learning counter intuitive things is one of the main points of data analisys.

I understand your point about focusing on KD leading to different playstyles, but my point is that's already how people play according to the real data, so what I'm proposing doesn't change much, except making the game more rewarding for by far the majority of solo players.

You, unfortunately, may be in a minority of solo players who want to play like team players, but have a hard time doing it near the Onyx border. Once you hit Onyx, things improve because everyone plays that way. But, also, once you get to the level where everyone knows the right way to do things, the big differentiator becomes, once again, KD. So it's hard to hide from that.

All of that said, the reason I propose a separate team-based / win-only based CSR is because I want to show that despite how good any solo player is, the team version would be way more prominent in the UX and much more highly rewarded. Everyone would know that the "real" way to play is as a team and winning. That also fits with how the Pros play.

So if you really want the highest and most prestigious rank you would need to:
  • find a team
  • win
The personal CSR would be more of a side rank, and possibly a way to get recruited.
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