Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – March 20

OP ZaedynFel

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ZaedynFel wrote:
How are you teaming up?: Nowadays, pretty much solo queue only. Depending on the time I have on hand, I usually just play a couple of Arena and one Warzone game. All my friend have different schedules and linking up for a game is rare at best. If I'm lucky, one of the randoms will have a mic and use it properly (no kinect mic on with the kids running around, phone conversation or music. And sorry spanish dudes, I have no clue what you are yelling in your mic with passion.).
Show Party State on the Loading Screen: Maybe OK for not seeing it on the loading screen, but I would love to see it after action. Sometimes it is obvious that I'm playing against a team (same icons, similar names, peeps from the same company), but usually I have no clue what type of party I just faced.
On veto: Could we have a vote/veto mode just for Action Sack? I think it is the only place it could do well. I have not been able to play Ground Pound Arena for ages.
ZaedynFel wrote:
How are you teaming up?
I'm a solo player, but I would use my friend's list or spartan company list to find people. Speaking of the spartan company, there is a problem with it not updating which would affect people trying to find teammates. It shows someone that's online by putting their name in the active list, but when they go offline it still keeps them in the active list instead of removing them. The only way I can update the list is if I quit the game and restart it. I don't know if you deal with that, but it would be cool if you could pass that along.
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Could we matchmake Quitters vs. Quitters?
Personally, I don't think the ban system is effective and all it does is drive people away especially when it was an unintentional quit. I'd have to agree with Vetoed's post about having incentives with higher stakes on the line so you have more motivation to play and not quit.

I also think putting quit bans in social is a terrible idea. That's what JIP is for and if it was actually working properly without all the problems I think there would be less complaints about quitting.
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Show Party State on the Loading Screen. Seeing Everyone’s CSR on the Loading Screen.
I agree that there is a problem with quitting when people see who they're facing and I think it is a tough problem to solve, but we need something besides emblems in H6. The H5 game lobby is probably the worst in the series although the H4 player cards can give it a run for its money.

I do think that one advantage of showing parties is that you'll also see if your team is a party of 2 or 3 which can be encouraging if you notice the team you're facing is a party.
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Having Forge Maps in Ranked
I don't have a problem with this as long the maps are properly tested. Some people say that we should only have developer maps, but dev maps can be bad as well.
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Social MatchmakingIn case you don’t know, we still have a skill rating or MMR we use when matchmaking in social, and even Warzone. We just aren’t as strict on how tight the matches need to be. We are still really strict in the team balancing though, so in theory you should win about as often as you lose.
So basically, you don't really care about the skill matching just as long as your win percentage is around 50% in theory?

I have to assume that considering I've matched full parties (sometimes random solos) of champion - diamond skilled parties while the majority of my team were platinum - bronze skilled players and of course my team gets stomped so that doesn't seem like strict team balancing in that sense which means the match you get is mainly based off of wins/losses.

I'd like to think my win rate was around 50% in the long run, but it certainly doesn't feel that way on a daily basis if I lose 5-6 games in a row and only win a couple.
How I'm teaming up: I typically team up randomly mainly because it's the simplest way. My friends list consists H5 players that are either too bad to play with competitively or they are too sweaty and I don't want to hear them yelling in my ear. Instead of waiting for quality teammates to come online, I talk myself into joining with randoms even though it turns out bad 90% of the time.

Can you matchmake quitters?: That's up to you guys. Yes, I typically am on the receiving end of a quitting teammate. Just apart of my general terrible luck. Unfortunately, I don't think you guys can track efficiently what I would consider a "quitter". Quitters that bother me aren't the people who leave right when the match begins, or because they get an invite, or even the ones that quit when the game is down to the wire. The quitters that bother me are those who quit because they are losing. Finish the game like a man.

Show party state: If I saw a team I was facing was in a party I admit it would be more intimidating than seeing that they weren't. However, I wouldn't quit either way. But I would be for leaving that feature out if it caused less people to quit.

CSR: I don't really know much about this. So up to you. I would suggest possibly a forfeit option were it to come down to 3v4 or worse. There would need to be complete agreement to cause the forfeit amongst all the team members.

Forge in ranked: I'll put my two cents in. Generally, Forge maps don't belong in ranked. And believe it or not, I say this not because of balance issues or whatever. I say it because I'm so tired of seeing recycled crap on every forged map. My eyes and brain hurt, and I feel like i'm just playing the same thing no matter what forge map it is. Even the anesthetically pleasing maps, like that white castle map, feels so noobish. Rockets and scatter 10 feet from each other, not too far from invis. Honestly, most maps have sucked since Halo 3 anyway but I dont want to be "that guy" so i'll shut up about that.

Matchmaking Trade Offs: I'm not an expert on connections, local servers, or whatever so this may sound retarded. I think whatever system is in place now is very bad. Even when selecting "balanced" the teams are not balanced. I'm sure it's hard for your servers to differentiate a Plat 3 that has 5,000+ KD spread and a Plat 3 with 50+ KD spread but nevertheless I ALWAYS get the Plat 3 with a 50+ KD spread over the 5,000. Another example, let's say the whole lobby is full of Onyxs. I'd say my whole team on avg is 1800 Onyx. Yet, their whole team is like Onyx 2800 on avg with some kid who probably just dropped from Champion rank. And they are communicating which is a HUGE advantage. If you guys can combine Mic users, ranks, and spreads and connectivity I think it would be a lot better. Again, I don't know how tall of an order this is but none of my games are ever close. I either win huge or lose huge which points back to unbalanced teams.

Social matchmaking: Now that you mention it, I do find balanced teams A LOT in Warzone or BTB. I guess because it's easier to balance a team out the more players you can put on each team. Anyways, Social Matchmaking gets an A rating for me.

Smurfs: I'll encounter a smurf very rarely so can't complain too much. I guess smurfs are facing lower level players more often than higher ranked players.

Other thoughts: I'd take a longer matchmaking time to get really well-matched teams. Even if it meant facing the people over again.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Could we matchmake Quitters vs. Quitters?In theory, this sounds awesome. Punish the jerks by making them play with the jerks. The problem is that most quitters are not habitual. Most of the quits you see are just normal players who sometimes quit. Because of this, matching quitters vs. quitters would not change things much because most people don’t quit enough to get marked as “quitters”. We do temp ban habitual quitters though.
We can probably focus on more effectively getting you out of matches where your team has quit, and into new ones faster.
We're also considering rebalancing how we penalize players who quit to make it less punishing if they decide because they're already down a man or two. I think they still need to lose the same amount of points as a losing team would, but at least they could leave the match early without having to play through it.
For me, the likelihood of getting matched with quitters is a big deterrent to solo queuing. You're going to take an L, you're going to lose CSR, and there's really nothing you can do about it unless you've been matched against total cupcakes. Stick around, and it's fun for no-one. Quit, and the system will punish you.

Just won a few games and might move up a rank? Sorry, SOL for something out of your control. But hey, win a few more and you might regain some of that lost CSR.

So while it may be somewhat controversial, I think there's a case for solo queue players getting punished less when they quit, if they are subject to teammates quitting on them first.

ZaedynFel wrote:
Having Forge Maps in RankedWe get feedback from many sources. Some sources really love the variety and potential competitiveness of the best forge maps. We have some players saying, “please put this forge map in,, the gameplay and balance are amazing! Definitely belongs in Ranked!” and then we have other players saying “please don’t put forge maps into Ranked”
It’s not my personal role to prepare a forge map for Arena, but I wanted to convey the fact that there are many perspectives on each issue like this one, with both sides having fairly convincing arguments. Just because it’s a forge map, doesn’t mean the gameplay and balance on the map can’t be just as good as the other maps. Or, “try and not judge a book by its cover”
All anyone wants are the best maps, period. There are forge maps in the rotation now that suffer from bad frame drops (Orion, Pegasus), awful spawns (Pegasus), and... let's get purely subjective, I just don't find engaging or fun (White Cell). I don't blame the creators of those maps in the slightest. But if you could quantify "just as good as the other maps" that would help. Coliseum, Plaza, etc set a very high bar that is in stark contrast to the playability of the current forged maps in Ranked. Frame drops and poor spawns are objectively bad for gameplay.

Looking outside Ranked, I share the opinion which many have stated that the forged BTB maps are unbalanced and essentially ruined by BR starts. (Getting cross-mapped from every piece of cover, fun.) That's again a settings issue and not a fundamental map design issue, right?
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Social Matchmaking
In case you don’t know, we still have a skill rating or MMR we use when matchmaking in social, and even Warzone. We just aren’t as strict on how tight the matches need to be. We are still really strict in the team balancing though, so in theory you should win about as often as you lose.
While it may be true, it's a very Ant or Boot experience compared to previous Halos as a solo player.

I used to happily run a 60-70% win in BTB/Invasion gametypes as a solo player, taking the hard lickings as they came. Now, I can't say I've liked playing BTB/Warzone in H5 as much as I did H2-H4... And I love H5's core mechanics, don't care for H4's.

Usually feels lopsided in skill or connection more often than other games. Never as great a discrepancy in bullet-sponginess in TF for all my Gen10 experience with their dedicated servers and small player base on large maps.
Far too often it feels like I'm to balance out the team rather than augment. Far too often it feels like I get placed on the team that feeds REQs or points, not fights for them. And it leads to less playing when I can get it in.

Don't know how to describe it other than I get not-so-smart teammates much more often in H5 than previous Halos. They just can't concentrate fire at all. That's something one should notice as they get placed with better players in BTB/Invasion, the ability to coordinate fire by following a lead. It comes from knowing how to play and prioritizing targets. You know you're on a weak team because there's a lot of random shooting. On a good team, players move together, even if they're not talking. I get a lot more weak teams than strong teams.

And unfortunately, a lot of times, it feels like I can blame the server... Of course, just 1 example for a lot of times :)..
Ok, maybe 2.. Like do I get credit for turning my BR into a Gauss? ;)

Any-who, why do I play alone?
I don't get the playtime or close Halo friends I used to. But I do still have a couple close Halo friends, so it's not always a solo experience.
What about a feature that allows a player and only that player who disconnects from a match to be able to reconnect to their match from the matchmaking menu? This would help people who get temp banned for no reason.
PeterAK91 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
How are you teaming up? Our UX design lead, Vincent, wanted to get some feedback from y’all on how you go about finding teams and parties for matchmaking. What has been the easiest way for you? There are many tools currently available to find folks to play with, but I don’t want to bias you by listing them, I’d rather here your feedback on them.
For those of you who play solo, is that because it’s a pain to find a team? Or do you just love that playstyle?
We’re looking into ways of making it easier to find folks to party up with, but want to first see what you’re already doing, and where the pain points might be.
I personally find it really hard to team up. I know i do have friends and my own spartan company partners to play with but i prefer to stay solo due to my friends current activity and i personally find it disturbing to send invites while they are on a party or busy on something else. in addition, i find myself performing A LOT BETTER alone than being on a team and worrying about call outs or other objective. I'm not stating that putting myself on a team is not a good experience, playing on a full team is fun, competitive and it helps me improve my skill on a full team but i personally feel a lot better alone also for the fact that on a full team i really worry a lot on my stats.
This is another big reason why I typically play solo. Every now and then I'll party up with people I find in matchmaking if we played well together and they send me an invite. However, I almost always play worse after we've partied up. I guess I feel like if I played well enough that they wanted to play with me again, they expect me to play just as well or better the next time. I feel like I play better solo when I can just relax and play without worrying about impressing anyone. It's more of a mental thing than anything else.
ZaedynFel wrote:
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times.
I blam!-ing love these threads. Discussion around the prioritization of features, tradeoffs the team is weighing, and general thought process makes me so freaking happy as player. Not only does it give me insight into the decisions that affect this game I care so much about, but it lets me understand some of the work that goes into it. Abraham Lincoln put it best at the outset of the Manhattan project: "Nom nom nom, design articles."
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How are you teaming up? Our UX design lead, Vincent, wanted to get some feedback from y’all on how you go about finding teams and parties for matchmaking. What has been the easiest way for you? There are many tools currently available to find folks to play with, but I don’t want to bias you by listing them, I’d rather here your feedback on them.
For those of you who play solo, is that because it’s a pain to find a team? Or do you just love that playstyle?
We’re looking into ways of making it easier to find folks to party up with, but want to first see what you’re already doing, and where the pain points might be.
I'm a generally highly solo player. The main reason is that I don't like spending energy outside of the game to find friends, and the friends that I have made through social platforms like Forgehub tend not to be the matchmaking type. And, my real life friends I played H3, Reach, and H4 with have mostly dropped Halo as major platform. (Demographic: male, age 25 - so I'm pushing out of the target, I know)
I actually really enjoy a cooperative team though - all my high-emotion moments that keep me playing matchmaking come from playing with friends. I am picky about the maturity/sense of humor of others on the mic, though.
From past entries, I really liked the simplicity of H3's "Party Up" system - it let me run a game mic and find players that were good enough/cool enough without breaking my regular matchmaking routine. My first few matches served as "trial" game with them, and I ended up adding a lot of Xbox Live friends after playing ranked or BTB together for a while.
The rise of party chat has put a damper on this one (and finding cool people in general) since I can't "try out" players in a game before inviting them.
Maybe you could incentivize players who join Game Chat directly with double shields? (Or something less gamebreaking, like additional Req rewards at the end of a match if their mic is detected in Game Chat for the 80% of the match & they don't have mute ban.) Assuming you want game chatter as much as I do...
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Having Forge Maps in RankedWe get feedback from many sources. Some sources really love the variety and potential competitiveness of the best forge maps. We have some players saying, “please put this forge map in,, the gameplay and balance are amazing! Definitely belongs in Ranked!” and then we have other players saying “please don’t put forge maps into Ranked”
It’s not my personal role to prepare a forge map for Arena, but I wanted to convey the fact that there are many perspectives on each issue like this one, with both sides having fairly convincing arguments. Just because it’s a forge map, doesn’t mean the gameplay and balance on the map can’t be just as good as the other maps. Or, “try and not judge a book by its cover”
Question - why not have more Forge maps in Social? Or make use of Proving Ground to try them out a la the Breakout-approval voting early on? Proving Ground runs the risk of polluting the other experiments you're running that week/month... but a social-only equivalent would be invaluable for Forgers to get significant gameplay feedback from thousands of players. Dodges the "Ranked" bullet initially, but still gives a retention return on Tom French's UGC Baby. You could probably lean on a community-run set of Forgers to provide QA without too much cost to the studio, too.
I solo queue a lot of the time, partly because I don't like feeling like I'm only being carried by my teammates. I honestly don't know how you've changed the algorithm but I lose almost constantly when I go in solo, and have a positive k/d. If I'm solo queuing I'll invite other people who do well and hope one joins. I've also noticed on high level champ in breakout you can actually find a game without smurfing, and many people stopped smurfing or significantly decreased how hard they were smurfing. I've also matched against champions who were searching by themselves which was unthinkable before the changes you made, because if you tried to search by yourself you would literally never find a game.
ZaedynFel wrote:
How are you teaming up?
I play solo 1% of the time. I have a few friends (in real life) that I play slayer with. We always try to get a full team but that hardly happens so if there's 2 or 3 of us, what we do is just play and hope we find a teammate that has a mic and communicates, if he does decent, we'll shoot him an invite and hope he joins. After playing a bit with the random, if we feel like he's chill and fits our team, I'll add him and next time we're short one, I'll shoot him an invite to the team if he's on. I've kept doing this until I have a pretty good list of players and can hopefully pull a team together every time I play.

So to recap:
- I don't solo, hate it because I get a bunch of people who either can't talk or don't play as a team.. there's too much randomness to my games when it's like this.
- if it's two of us in a party, we play and hope to find 2 randoms that will join after the game is over, if we can't, we don't play for long and just log off
- goal is to always try to get a full team.
Ill reply to quitting because i feel it effects me. Personally, I try my hardest not to quit games. But it becomes increasingly difficult when you're down 2v4 and don't want to go -20, but still don't want to take that possible ban, or the bigger amount of CSR that you lose when you quit.
I don't agree with losing CSR after a teamate quits. I understand losing you deserve to go down, so I would probably agree with a reduced penalty for a loss when a teamate quits.
That being said there's been an alarming number of people quitting lately, I mean that as in every single game I solo que someone quits be it on my team or the other. Very disheartening.
Something you guys tweaked to make ffa Champs match faster brought in low diamond and platinum players and as much as I enjoy the easy ride, they often quit and slows the game experience exponentially 5 man ffa and 6 man are a big difference.
I'm sure there is more I could add but I'm not sure anyone actually reads this so I'll stop.
I like the idea of a lesser CSR hit if you lose when outnumbered. I'd even be ok if this was only for certain gametypes. For example, in my experience, being outnumbered in a Slayer isn't that big of a deal if the ones of you who are left are decent and work together. I don't think the same applies to Doubles though, it's hard to win a doubles match by yourself, I've done it, but mainly because we had a fairly solid lead when my teammate lagged out so all I had to do was maintain. However, I don't know that I've ever won an objective game when more than one person quits out, so that's where I'd definitely agree with not losing as much CSR I'd say you lose a Strongholds game 2v4.
I want server automatically vetoe last played maps of each players
Is it possible to have a underwater war zone map?
ZaedynFel wrote:
How are you teaming up?
Pretty much a solo player tbh, when I do team up it's via the whole 'X' Friends/Company and invite from there. Occasionally I've been invited in by other folks that I have met in game.

On a side note - I really think informing the player of what they are up against before a match starts is a good thing, especially for solo queuers like myself. I would prefer to know rank, mic and party status of teamates and opponents before the game starts in order to set expectations, strats etc. I know you are concerned about folks quitting but if your awesome WIP mm system does it's job then folks shouldn't have to worry so much about getting owned by teams/smurfs etc as the system will ensure folks match accordingly.

As for vote/vetos.....never had a problem with it in CoD, pretty sure it worked out ok in 3 and Reach (if my memory is correct that is, it's been a while).
ZaedynFel wrote:
How are you teaming up? For those of you who play solo, is that because it’s a pain to find a team? Or do you just love that playstyle?
We’re looking into ways of making it easier to find folks to party up with, but want to first see what you’re already doing, and where the pain points might be.
My issue is most of my friends quit playing Halo. With me it's not usually a matter of choice. I have been playing Halo since the beginning and have typically played Halo alone and I still enjoy it very much. It would be nice to find an open party to play with when I do play. (Which is about 3 times a week) Or join a team that plays a few times a week similar to Destiny. I have a team that parties up and plays once a week. I wish I had the same for Halo. I also haven't really looked for it all that hard either.
In terms of solo vs teaming up:

I am a member of a spartan company and that is a good way to have a set group to play with. Players need to search for groups that fit their needs. I have limited time to play so I joined a group that understands that and most of the other company members are in the same boat. There usually is other company members on at any given time. With that being said- even with the company- that is only 100 members. If 1/2 the group likes WZ and 1/2 likes Arena that drops the pool of players to team up with. Then - if players like objective vs slayer the pool is further diminished. Then - if I try to match with similarly ranked players it's diminished more. And finally - all those similarly ranked players need to be on at the same time.
So I usually solo Q as a result.

I also agree with this - fits my personality as well:
"I carry a sense of expectation for my performance and dislike letting teammates down (those I pair up with) when I'm not living up to my expectations, so that thought process may be a mental blockage for why I'm not more active in trying to aggressively find people to play with which leaves
me in an odd comfort zone of playing solo even if I prefer playing with a group"

On the flip side maybe if I teamed up more then I could grind up to plat in slayer finally!
As far as quitters and effect on CSR. I really do believe the CSR punishment needs to be lessened when your teammates quit. Can even argue in some cases it should go up despite the loss. I cant find the game to link but recently played slayer.
I am Gold. Had a Silver teammate. We had 2 people quit right away.
We played a Plat, Silver, and 2 others who were ranking.
Only Lost 47-42 despite it being 2 vs 4.
I went 23-2-15.
Plat went 24-6-10.

Feel like if I am going toe to toe agaianst a higher ranked player and almost pulling off upset despite it being 2 v 4 that I should gain CSR or at the worst stay the same.

But maybe that's too hard for the system to calculate? Maybe my MMR and the plat's were the same at that time and we were "even" BUT it was still 2 v 4.....
pistola de grande
Moda wrote:
Hey josh great update and info.
Just last night I tried MM in SWAT solo with search parameters set to expanded for about 10 minutes and just could find any spartans. Now I know SWAT is a pretty popular playlist maybe not as much when you are onyx but it's my favorite gametype and every season I play my 10 placement matches, get onyx, then can not find games playing solo. Any further help in getting games while playing swat would be very appreciated
Try searching focused. It has started helping me find games in swat at the champion lvl
Carry me pls kthnx. 😘

Add me and we can play sometime for sure :)
iSpiteful wrote:
I don't think finding people to play with is the issue here, there is a much bigger and more prominent problem that us solo queue players face and that is the obvious unfair balancing. I actually like playing Solo but its really bad to do so in Warzone and Arena. Warzone solo queue often joins you into half complete games where your team is getting destroyed and can feel very punishing/frustrating and with regards to Ranked Arena solo queue is tedious as you often match teams of 4 and get decimated :/
Couldn't agree more and I'm glad your agreed with my post. I've actually had ppl threaten me over xbox fot my opinions every though countless ppl I kno agree with me. Heck even kampy agrees with fair party matches like in classic halo games.

I swear I've never had in issues is h2 or h3 but in halo 5 it's pretty bad.
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