Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – March 6

OP ZaedynFel

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CSR Changes
I’m currently finalizing the settings for next season. This is where I’m headed:
  • It’ll take less time to “prove” you deserve your expected CSR after placement
  • We should see a lot less folks in Onyx.

Why do we allow CSR to drop to lower Designations?
We were looking at ways to better communicate the fairness of a match and found a lot of the perceived imbalance was because people weren’t dropping in designations. A Gold player would match vs. a Diamond player who really belonged in Platinum and get frustrated.

Comparing our data with and without the dropping shows people are happier now despite sometimes dropping. Like I said before, I do think it could use some polish to prevent bouncing back and forth though. We won't see that polish this season, but possibly in a future one.


Playlist Suggestions
I appreciate your detailed playlist suggestions. We’re definitely reading through those and taking them into account. I personally don’t work out the details of the playlists, so I won’t give a lot of feedback on them here. The people working on the details do read the forums carefully, and are definitely listening to your suggestions.


Will fewer placement matches hurt my rank for the season?
I wouldn’t lower the number of placement matches if I felt it would hurt CSR determination precision. It currently needs to stay around 10 matches, but if we drastically improve the speed at which we detect skill, it could drop.


Smurfing
I’ve covered this pretty well in my firsts post or two (see the archive). We’re against smurfing and have a solid and well-tested solution in the works. In order to do it right, though, it’ll be a bit before you see its benefits in game.


Why don’t you show CSR on the loading screen and lock people so they can’t back out?
This was actually the original plan, but when we tried this during the beta it caused more disruption than good. Locking doesn’t prevent people from finding other ways to quit and return, and it happened enough that banning wasn’t going to be a good solution.


Inactive Onyx Players Keeping Onyx Players out
This doesn’t happen. We don’t enforce a given population size directly in Onyx. We have a boundary that anyone good enough can cross to get there, regardless of less actives.
I cant find the thread where it addresses Team Snipers. Will there be a Ranked Team Snipers this coming season or is it out? If so I would really enjoy having some type of social snipers playlist be brought back.
More excited for the upcoming season then any before it. I honestly can't think of a single change that I disagree with. Thanks Josh!
Thanks for doing this. Looking forward to the next season. Can't wait to see the smurf detection at work!
Legitmate question related to smurfing.

What if you're lets say diamond/onyx or higher in ranked playlists and you have played a longtime but your Xbox Live account gets permanetly banned.
So you make a new Xbox Live account and start from 0 and you like to play ranked, aren't you smurfing without any other chances to play?

Curious about this.
Piraja27 wrote:
What if you're lets say diamond/onyx or higher in ranked playlists and you have played a longtime but your Xbox Live account gets permanetly banned.
So you make a new Xbox Live account and start from 0 and you like to play ranked, aren't you smurfing without any other chances to play?
I'm confident we'll be able to handle that (and most) situations fairly.
I just want Stronghold to have it's own playlist in ranked, thanks.
ZaedynFel wrote:
CSR ChangesI’m currently finalizing the settings for next season. This is where I’m headed:
  • It’ll take less time to “prove” you deserve your expected CSR after placement
  • We should see a lot less folks in Onyx.
Why do we allow CSR to drop to lower Designations?We were looking at ways to better communicate the fairness of a match and found a lot of the perceived imbalance was because people weren’t dropping in designations. A Gold player would match vs. a Diamond player who really belonged in Platinum and get frustrated.

Comparing our data with and without the dropping shows people are happier now despite sometimes dropping. Like I said before, I do think it could use some polish to prevent bouncing back and forth though. We won't see that polish this season, but possibly in a future one.
Playlist SuggestionsI appreciate your detailed playlist suggestions. We’re definitely reading through those and taking them into account. I personally don’t work out the details of the playlists, so I won’t give a lot of feedback on them here. The people working on the details do read the forums carefully, and are definitely listening to your suggestions.

Will fewer placement matches hurt my rank for the season?I wouldn’t lower the number of placement matches if I felt it would hurt CSR determination precision. It currently needs to stay around 10 matches, but if we drastically improve the speed at which we detect skill, it could drop.

SmurfingI’ve covered this pretty well in my firsts post or two (see the archive). We’re against smurfing and have a solid and well-tested solution in the works. In order to do it right, though, it’ll be a bit before you see its benefits in game.

Why don’t you show CSR on the loading screen and lock people so they can’t back out?This was actually the original plan, but when we tried this during the beta it caused more disruption than good. Locking doesn’t prevent people from finding other ways to quit and return, and it happened enough that banning wasn’t going to be a good solution.

Inactive Onyx Players Keeping Onyx Players outThis doesn’t happen. We don’t enforce a given population size directly in Onyx. We have a boundary that anyone good enough can cross to get there, regardless of less actives.
Are we ever gonna see a solo que option?
Are champions going to find games faster now or is it still going to take me and my team hours to find a game?
So is breakout changing at all?
So what's the update on party restrictions or matching full teams vs solo players less/counting the bigger team as a higher mmr so they match "higher" solo players at the very least. It's great that you're trying to address smurfing but a little contradicting to the spirit of that if you don't address this issue at all as well..

Really just hoping for some more communication regarding it. If it's no longer planned in any capacity fine I understand, but I don't want to keep checking up and hoping for nothing.
I have some playlist suggestions. Please add lockout, beaver creek, valhalla, and construct to the team snipers playlist. Also in snipers, decrease the weighting on ghost town and citadel. In the btb playlist, reduce the weighting on longshore. In the team slayer playlist, decrease the smg/ar start weighting and the gemini and isolation weighting. That would at least improve the experience a bit.
vatos4Lyfe wrote:
I just want Stronghold to have it's own playlist in ranked, thanks.
Seeehawks wrote:
So is breakout changing at all?
Guys, this has been brought up multiple time. Josh handles how the matchmaking and rank systems work, NOT playlist management which is what youre asking about here. Questions about specific playlists just clutters up the thread.

Overall very much looking forward to the update this week.
ZaedynFel wrote:
CSR ChangesI’m currently finalizing the settings for next season. This is where I’m headed:
  • It’ll take less time to “prove” you deserve your expected CSR after placement
  • We should see a lot less folks in Onyx.
Could you please explain how its going to take less time and why there will be fewer Onyx player please?
ZaedynFel wrote:
Playlist Suggestions: I personally don’t work out the details of the playlists, so I won’t give a lot of feedback on them here.
Josh,

Can I ask for a certain type of feedback? In your personal opinion, what do you think should be, or are, the key differences between the Social and Ranked environments? If I were to lay out the differences that I see existing, or should exist, between the two environments where would you say you might have a different view than I? The characteristics of the two environments is what I'm mostly curious about receiving feedback on from you not necessarily the playlists themselves since as you point out you're not directly involved with that aspect -- good to know though that they are getting read and taken into account as I very much appreciate that.

Ranked Mode Characteristics:
  1. A scoring system that's focused on the competitive objective only; in other words, in a slayer match only earning a kill will net a single point toward the total score goal and in a CTF game only a flag capture will net a single point toward the total score goal, etc.
  2. No JIP whatsoever unless it's integrated in a way to only allow players re-entry into active matches they perhaps accidentally got removed from.
  3. A surrender option to complement the lack of a true JIP.
  4. Have visual Competitive Skill Ranks (CSRs) that are primarily team-based performance driven (FFA is the obvious exception) and influence the skill based matchmaking (MMR) system on a fairly significant level.
  5. Skill based matchmaking (MMR) in Ranked playlists is generally slower to broaden its search parameters in-comparison to Social searches which, generally speaking, can lead to increased search times.
  6. Friendly fire is on for all modes with shields along with "boot" options for continuous betrayals. Non-shielded modes (aka SWAT) involve ricochet effects when performing friendly fire.
  7. The game modes are primarily focused on the competitive aspect. Also, I think the change that turns the motion sensor into a new type of radar should be an excellent fit for the modes under Ranked -- looking forward to the temporary Proving Grounds playlist.
Ranked Playlists:
  • Arena - (HCS geared mixed-bag)
  • Slayer
  • Doubles - (mixed-bag)
  • SWAT
  • Lone Wolves
  • Snipers
  • Grifball
Social Mode Characteristics:
  1. A scoring system that rewards points based on positive actions; in other words, in a slayer match earning a kill nets multiple points toward a total point goal, but assistive actions (regarding the objective) will also earn players points too. A point-based scoring system (similar to Halo 4, but simpler) is meant to acknowledge and reward all types of game-play contributions towards the objective.
  2. A limited JIP is a must, but getting JIP'd into a losing match should not cause the loss to get recorded against the JIP'd player's statistics unless the team took the lead at some point after they joined before going on to lose.
  3. Have hidden Competitive Skill Ratings (CSRs) that are individual-performance based and slightly influence the skill based matchmaking (MMR) system.
  4. Skill based matchmaking (MMR) in Social playlists is generally quicker to broaden its search parameters in-comparison to Ranked searches which, generally speaking, should lead to quicker search times.
  5. Friendly fire is off for all modes except for perhaps certain custom modes under Action Sack.
  6. The game modes are primarily focused on enjoyment factors for all above strict competitive play. By the way, I'm not sure the new radar change is ideal for all of the social playlists though perhaps it will be for some.
Social Playlists:
  • Slayer - (diverse slayer-based only mixed bag)
  • Skirmish - (diverse non-slayer based only mixed bag)
  • BTB - (diverse mixed-bag)
  • Breakout - (round-based mixed-bag)
  • Action Sack - (mixed-bag of customs)
  • Infection
  • (Rotational) Multi-Team - (mixed-bag)
I know this gets annoying and you don't deal with how playlists are setup, are there any expected changes to breakout soon?
Thanks again for the insights provided by these updates!

As Rokform just mentioned:

Is it safe to matchmake solo now? Party size discrepancy (or MMR mitigation to balance solo's vs party) was a hot topic and a key area of improvement for me, but I don't see mention.

Also an idea - seeing as MMR and CSR are two different values, would it be possible to have a 'hot' indicator after a match. So you could see that someone is in gold for example, but that they're on a tear (MMR is higher, or maybe if they're on a winning streak) which is why they're in the game with a bunch of plats/diamonds. This would be in addition to any fuzzy indicator of MMR strength proposed in your Feb28 post.

Another idea, somewhat related: Something that Heroes of the Storm does that I'm quite fond of as a way of diversifying play and getting people to try new heroes is the quests feature. I think this could be applied to a Halo title as there is always a wealth of interesting playlists. Having a daily quest and a REQ Points reward attached. Play X games in X playlist, win X games in X playlist or simply 'play X games', 'win x games' quests sprinkled in as heroes does. Could be a great little motivator and improve player retention.
ZaedynFel wrote:
CSR Changes
  • We should see a lot less folks in Onyx.
FWIW, You may want to communicate any changes of the details here to the community sooner than later. One of the cooler things about H5 is the existence of the public API and game stats database (https://developer.haloapi.com/) which enable awesome sites like http://halo5arena.com and www.halotracker.com to exist .

Halo5arena.com in particular does a good job of translating your rank emblems to estimated CSR numbers, but it's currently assuming the onyx barrier is 1500 CSR, so if that's changing based on your updates (not sure if that's the route you're going), they will need to update their process.

In any case, I'm looking forward to the updates.

ZaedynFel wrote:
Why don’t you show CSR on the loading screen and lock people so they can’t back out?This was actually the original plan, but when we tried this during the beta it caused more disruption than good. Locking doesn’t prevent people from finding other ways to quit and return, and it happened enough that banning wasn’t going to be a good solution.
That makes me sad... I wonder if there's some way to still show those ranks before the gameplay begins. I just find that especially in solo queue, it changes the way I run an opening strat when i see the other ranks in the game. And I honestly think it's fun (I'm not a quitter).

I wonder if part of the problem is that the game doesn't TELL you at which point you're locked in, and will lose CSR and be assessed penalties for leaving? Like, a warning should pop up on the screen as soon as you're locked in that says something to the effect of: "Game is locked in. Anyone who quits or disconnects at this point will receive a loss, decreased CSR, and risk quit penalties". Even now, it's not clear when that point is - I dashboard quit a game yesterday (a rare occurrence for me), but apparently did so too late, forcing my team to play down a man, and I got a DNF. I had no idea it was too late to dashboard quit... If so, I wouldn't have dashboarded.
I know this gets annoying and you don't deal with how playlists are setup, are there any expected changes to breakout soon?
Guys again, this is not the place for these questions. Josh has no control over playlist management or gametypes yet was kind enough to cover this in a previous thread. There are other threads for this.

Sorry to white-knight this -Yoink-, but its getting tiresome wading through all these posts. This might help for people wanting direct communication, hit up @ske7ch (community manager) or @quinndelhoyo ( mp design lead) on twitter if you want to be more direct.
ZaedynFel wrote:
CSR ChangesI’m currently finalizing the settings for next season. This is where I’m headed:
  • It’ll take less time to “prove” you deserve your expected CSR after placement
  • We should see a lot less folks in Onyx.
Could you please explain how its going to take less time and why there will be fewer Onyx player please?
I'm inferring, so I might be wrong but:
- Simply lowering the number of games the system uses to 'prove' you deserve your CSR. I believe this means in practice that there's a period of a certain number of games where your MMR can change drastically (CSR will eventually follow).
- You will be able to drop back out of Onyx if your CSR falls below 1500.
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