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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – March 6

OP ZaedynFel

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ZaedynFel wrote:
Thanks for the info. Wasn't my post but I learned a bit from your response.
Ditto. Thanks for the concrete example, @ZaedynFel. Very clarifying.
Please bring back Team Snipers.... This is the only mode I enjoy and Halo is the only game series I have played enjoyably since Halo 1. It took over a year to get and I waited patiently, then it gets snatched away after two - three months. Disappointed.
Hey Josh, long time fan of FFA here with a few questions:

1) Why the change of Power Weapons for Mercy?, kind of irritating this change has taken place without informing the players who like FFA. Is there any other changes we dont know or aren't in informed of? 3 Power Weapons between 6 people is ridiculous and ruins the flow of FFA for that map, 1 sniper was fine, but with a beam rifle, a grav hammer and a SAW, we may as well play FFA Super Fiesta.

2) Did something happen in the recent update to server connections? Im 7 games into my FFA placements and each game has been more like watching the Bleach anime than playing Halo, due to people teleporting around the map like they just aquired flash step, it making very unenjoyable to play. My best guess is I'm getting connect to servers in Mexico from the gamertags Im seeing. But I never had this issue in the previous season this consistently.

3) Before the 2nd season reset I was only ranked Diamond 2 (abit of a step down from my Onyx last season) but now after the 2nd reset, through my 7 games everyone has felt like Im playing High Onyx, is there a reason for these match ups? Normally Id have 2-3 wins by now but this damn right annoying, High Onyx players and some players with trash connections does not make a good match.

Any information you can provide will helpful thank you.
Hi Josh,

I just did the 10 placements matches with my friend and I don't understand what happens. Last season we played well, at the end we were good (for us) as we gained both the diamond rank, and we had some good streaks of wins (like 15 in a row).
And this season during the placement matchs we were completly outplayed (only 2 victories), and when I look at the rank of our opponents the last seasons, they were champion or onyx, this is a little bit unfair. I know that there is the MMR but same, the difference is big.
Any explanation ?
Seeehawks wrote:
So is breakout changing at all?
We need a change in that i think. Like maybe a big team breakout
The CSR ranking system requires some forms of revision. For example, rank resets decrease your CSR by 200. This system causes the reset to not reset your rank. Instead, it serves to solve the problem of inactive players. Inactive players should have their ranks reset for not playing in over 60 days instead of resetting everyone. One of the other problems is the ways in which a player's MMR is decided. All ranking systems operate off of an invisible rank that remains hidden to avoid exploitation. In order to achieve the rank of bronze a player needs to lose every placement game AND maintain an accuracy of lower than 20%. Accuracy, average life, damage dealt, and other similar statistics are determined by playstyle. Aggressive players will always have lower accuracy, lower average lives, and more damage dealt. The changes in these statistics do not represent changes in skill. Rather, it merely shows a difference in playstyle. The best way to increase MMR is to play passive. In the breakout playlist (before it had shotguns), I noticed the players with higher average lives always ranked higher. These players usually got the first picks that won the team the round. The variety of data that determines MMR skews what a player's skill level is. MMR values are inflated which causes players to use "smurf" accounts. When I was a platinum 6 in Arena a couple of seasons ago I could only play against high onyx players because of my rank from previous seasons. This made increasing my CSR insanely difficult so the in-game representation did not match the MMR that actually matched me in games. MMR would exist in a 1-50 system so I am not suggesting returning to it. However, a system that focuses solely on wins and losses will always be preferred. Winning should benefit every player in the lobby the same.

MAIN POINT: Some of the things I dislike about the CSR system are listed above. However, the CSR system will never work without party matching. Teams of 4 should NEVER be able to match solo que players. Communication is far too important in Halo multiplayer due to the long TTKs. The main argument would be that match making times would increase. I would be willing to wait 5-10 minutes to play a fair game instead of matching teams of 4 (that are usually using "de-ranked" accounts. Without party matching the CSR system is a joke.
One of the hardest playlists in Arena matchmaking is Free-for-All. I have constantly tried to get Champion in the playlist, but I can't play a single match of the playlist, without dealing with people who have high Onyxs and Champions. I am sick and tired of losing games to people who have ranks when I don't, only because the more matches I win, the better the people in the next match will be. Change Arena matchmaking so that unranked players only play with those who are unranked, and those who are ranked play those who are ranked, no matter how many games they won or lost. I take so much pity on the Free-for-All playlist, because there are too many people who have Onyxs and Champions that don't even play like Onyxs and Champions at all, but like Diamonds and Platinums. Just because you are a Champion in Free-for-All, doesn't mean you're always so good that you can get over 15 kills each game. I have defeated so many Champions on multiple occasions at the end of a match with ninjas, hardcore sniping skills, clutch kills, and just straight up making them choke. For example, I was an Onyx in Breakout last season, and the majority of the time I dealt with people who had lower ranks, but it didn't seem like they did at all. They would know where to go at a particular time during a round, when to get the flag, and would have ridiculous skills with strafing and would play at like Champions, but really, they have Platinums and Diamonds, just some straight up smurfing. The ranking system should be based on the average CSR that players have placed in per season, not on who got the most kills, least deaths, and kills per game. Change the ranking system, so that it actually makes sense when you get Champion in a playlist.
One of the hardest playlists in Arena matchmaking is Free-for-All. I have constantly tried to get Champion in the playlist, but I can't play a single match of the playlist, without dealing with people who have high Onyxs and Champions. I am sick and tired of losing games to people who have ranks when I don't, only because the more matches I win, the better the people in the next match will be. Change Arena matchmaking so that unranked players only play with those who are unranked, and those who are ranked play those who are ranked, no matter how many games they won or lost. I take so much pity on the Free-for-All playlist, because there are too many people who have Onyxs and Champions that don't even play like Onyxs and Champions at all, but like Diamonds and Platinums. Just because you are a Champion in Free-for-All, doesn't mean you're always so good that you can get over 15 kills each game. I have defeated so many Champions on multiple occasions at the end of a match with ninjas, hardcore sniping skills, clutch kills, and just straight up making them choke. For example, I was an Onyx in Breakout last season, and the majority of the time I dealt with people who had lower ranks, but it didn't seem like they did at all. They would know where to go at a particular time during a round, when to get the flag, and would have ridiculous skills with strafing and would play at like Champions, but really, they have Platinums and Diamonds, just some straight up smurfing. The ranking system should be based on the average CSR that players have placed in per season, not on who got the most kills, least deaths, and kills per game. Change the ranking system, so that it actually makes sense when you get Champion in a playlist.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are asking here.

You are telling me that you are a Champion-level player, have beaten champs, but that you don't want to match with Champions? If you are Champion level, the system must try and match you with Champions, even during placement. To do otherwise would be unfair to the noobs you would get to stomp instead.

I also don't understand your argument about CSR vs. number of kills. CSR goes up and down based on your finishing position at the end of an FFA match. Finishing position is based on number of kills. Ranks are already based on your average CSR placement season to season. Your Rank each season is heavily based on your rank the previous season. Your matchmaking in a new season is heavily based on your skill in the previous season. This is why you get matched with Champs even in placement matches. It knows how all of you played last season. This prevents Golds from having to play vs. Champs. Also, to be clear, the amount your CSR changes match to match in FFA is based on the finishing position AND the CSR of your opponents. Being #1 vs. Silvers won't move the bar up much, being #6 vs. Champs won't lower it much (unless you are #1 Champ).

Also, there is another factor that influences this. There are so few Champions (200 in the entire world per ranked playlist) that the system allows Champions to match against high Onyx players rather than wait several hours for a match. This happens even more often in FFA because you can't average the skill out in a team like you can in 4v4.
One of the hardest playlists in Arena matchmaking is Free-for-All. I have constantly tried to get Champion in the playlist, but I can't play a single match of the playlist, without dealing with people who have high Onyxs and Champions. I am sick and tired of losing games to people who have ranks when I don't, only because the more matches I win, the better the people in the next match will be. Change Arena matchmaking so that unranked players only play with those who are unranked, and those who are ranked play those who are ranked, no matter how many games they won or lost. I take so much pity on the Free-for-All playlist, because there are too many people who have Onyxs and Champions that don't even play like Onyxs and Champions at all, but like Diamonds and Platinums. Just because you are a Champion in Free-for-All, doesn't mean you're always so good that you can get over 15 kills each game. I have defeated so many Champions on multiple occasions at the end of a match with ninjas, hardcore sniping skills, clutch kills, and just straight up making them choke. For example, I was an Onyx in Breakout last season, and the majority of the time I dealt with people who had lower ranks, but it didn't seem like they did at all. They would know where to go at a particular time during a round, when to get the flag, and would have ridiculous skills with strafing and would play at like Champions, but really, they have Platinums and Diamonds, just some straight up smurfing. The ranking system should be based on the average CSR that players have placed in per season, not on who got the most kills, least deaths, and kills per game. Change the ranking system, so that it actually makes sense when you get Champion in a playlist.
I don't guess I see why it matters that ranked players match untanked, the system is still matching you against players that should be close to your skill level regardless of whether or not they've finished their placement matches yet. And of course if you're trying to make it to Champion, you're going to match high Onyx and Chamopn players, why shouldn't you?
Are champions going to be able to find games now to prevent smurfing? Also its seems the ranking system is more strict. But if my MMR always matches me against champions and I win against champions in my placement FFA matches and won three in a row I get placed diamond 6 what gives? Now I have to fight all the way through onyx matching champions every game check my history.

Playlist Suggestions
I appreciate your detailed playlist suggestions. We’re definitely reading through those and taking them into account. I personally don’t work out the details of the playlists, so I won’t give a lot of feedback on them here. The people working on the details do read the forums carefully, and are definitely listening to your suggestions.

This is a question about ranking I promise - does the ranking system affect what game modes are in what playlist? I think I am not alone in thinking that certain legacy gametypes, especially proven tournament modes (Oddball, King of the Hill, one flag, game variants like slayer pro, etc) are simply not in the game. Yes, they are available to play in the custom browser and thry can be a ton of fun - but that isn't a substitute for having gametypes and variants in matchmaking. There are so many playlists that are just slayer with different team sizes... Does the ranking system have any influence on what game types are in matchmaking? Is ranking something like Oddball or king of the Hill harder to track and rank skills? For example, doubles is ONLY slayer, which it never was before in previous titles. I would KILL to have some decent objective gametypes in something ranked other than Team Arena, and I wonder why so many playlists are just slayer with no variants. Just curious if ranking has anything to do with those decisions, and if those algorithms could be changed or improved so that we can have classic gametypes, with new style gameplay mechanics , in actual matchmade games?

Thanks for the updates!! Really interesting stuff, I looked up Elo's rating system and learned a bit about it :)
I have a question I am unrated and cant find games in swat not placed yet?
Ranking up while losing, now possible??
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/MJBfox/screenshot/5911172
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/MJBfox/screenshot/5911274
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/MJBfox/screenshot/5911309
I'm so tired of playing against smurf accounts. Half of my FFA placement matches so far have had a new account stomping everyone in my game and getting first place. I seriously hope we get the amount of placement matches reduced so it places these people in their rank bracket faster which reduces my chances of matching with them.
MJBfox wrote:
Ranking up while losing, now possible??
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/MJBfox/screenshot/5911172
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/MJBfox/screenshot/5911274
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/MJBfox/screenshot/5911309
It's possible you lost CSR but the green arrow was mistakenly displayed. Try looking up that game on www.halo5arena.com, to see if you actually lost or won CSR from that defeat.
Tetrafy wrote:
Are champions going to be able to find games now to prevent smurfing? Also its seems the ranking system is more strict. But if my MMR always matches me against champions and I win against champions in my placement FFA matches and won three in a row I get placed diamond 6 what gives? Now I have to fight all the way through onyx matching champions every game check my history.
For some reason I think there's a cap on how high you can be placed in FFA after your placement matches. Watched Vetoed's Greatest gunslinger series on YouTube, he won every game in his placement matches, but mentioned that he knew he'd still be placed no higher than Diamomd 6. In my opinion this doesn't make sense. If you're good enough to beat high Onyxs and Champions, why not place high Onyx or Champion? This doesn't affect me personally since I never play good enough in my placements to be placed in a Onyx right off the bat, but it just doesn't seem right for those who are that good, to be punished with a lower rank than they deserve. Especially since there doesn't seem to be a similar cap across other playlists since I'm pretty sure you can at least be placed Onyx right off the bat.
ok. so, mighty smurf (the guy's name is CL SOLO) just went 20-1 in TA. ok, so i stay and finish the game. then, you put the guy in the next match as well like it was going to be ANY different!

Looked him up on halotracker: last season he was gold in TA and DBL but onyx in TS and FFA. clearly, this guy's a f smurf. so, if your algs can't find something as blatant as this then i ask u: what is the point!?

I REALLY don't believe you get just how horrid that is. Add the time up that you, yes you, expect to waste of mine in matches like that. I love the game. I absolutely LOATHE your matchmaking.

Please understand. I don't care about your variation on ELO or that you've published on the subject. I know you can detect this guy. I believe you are NOT bc you know he can't find games otherwise and that if you banned that account then he'd just create another. Am i wrong? Again, what's the point? So, we distribute that pain out to the masses? Dude. I code for a living and I eat well. I know you could do something about this.

That guy getting games is not my problem. Let me type that again.... That guy getting games is not my problem. Him trashing the games he finds for everyone else... that's somehow preferable to you than him sitting out. Absolutely blows my mind...
ZaedynFel wrote:
Tried a couple of games yesterday as the new season launched and I was left with a feeling that matchmaking is almost non-existing. I'm a casual at the bottom gold tier and constantly got paired with Platinum and Diamond players, as well as smurfs late in the previous season. I enjoy solo-queing and sometimes with a fireteam of 2 as well, but the feel of even pairing is almost gone. I honestly feel like the matchmaking is broken and the situation has escalated from annoying to straight up demotivating over the past two weeks or so. I would gladly wait 2-10 minutes for a match, if it resulted in more close match-ups.
OK, I found in the last 20 matches you've had one Diamond in your match, although that Diamond player was put on your team, not your opponent, and your team lost. Also, the system at the time expected that Diamond player to actually perform more like a Platinum player, and expected you to also almost perform like a Platinum player (you'd had a good tear).

So the system thought the two of you were close enough to put on the same team.

It also looks like most of your matches have been close with the exception of 1 or 2, which is normal.

The matchmaker allows a gap of around 1 whole CSR rank, so it's not unusual for players who have been playing at the high Gold level recently to match with Diamond players who have been playing more like Platinum players in their recent history.

You may argue that at the time your CSR was "Gold 1" Even so, your MMR was near Platinum. The system hadn't classified you as higher Gold yet because it wants to be "sure", that's what CSR is for.

MMR is what the system expects of you, CSR is what you've actually earned.

Over the course of your next few games you showed you might not deserve that CSR, although the system still has hope for you, so if you keep pushing, you'll be back in Gold soon.
Thank you for clarifying all of this. Granted, I might have been a bit off, remembering the match-ups perfectly, but the answer you provided helped out alot regarding my understanding (and frustrations) bout how the pairing worked. I wasn't moaning over the pairings just when I got teamed up against them tho, it was more the general feel of a flawed matchmaking system.
I have to say, that this past weekend seemed a whole lot more balanced than when I posted the original post, so props for that! The new system seems promising. Thank you again for the response, it was very helpful.
Tetrafy wrote:
I have a question I am unrated and cant find games in swat not placed yet?
System thinks you are better than most players, so is waiting to find people worthy of you.
Dee Ferya wrote:
Looked him up on halotracker: last season he was gold in TA and DBL but onyx in TS and FFA. clearly, this guy's a f smurf. so, if your algs can't find something as blatant as this then i ask u: what is the point!?
As I've stated already, we 100% want to prevent this, and are currently working on the solution. It's not done yet, and it's not trivial. Some of these are legit, and some aren't. The solution that prevents this when it should, and doesn't when it shouldn't, is well on its way, but will take proper implementation and even more importantly, testing, before it goes live.
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