Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – May 21

OP ZaedynFel

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SUNKISTT wrote:
So basically with this MMR idea they're telling us that we are full of ourselves and we actually aren't as good as we think we are I'd really like to know who made that decision..
and what is that based on cuz I really don't get this whole MMR thing what's the point of having a CSR if you have an MMR I can understand this if we're playing a game with 100,000 people Plus but I'm sure we're not near that so what's the point of making it so much more complicated by applying a lot of weight on this MMR wear now it's over taking my CSR I literally can't play now because I don't have a full Squad right now and I usually just go in solo but I can't even think of doing that when even queuing solo I don't get any CSR from a win.
No person is making the decision. MMR has always been around. It used to be calculated by Trueskill1. Now it's calculated by Trueskill2. The reason Trueskill2 is now used to determine MMR is because it's better than Trueskill1; Trueskill2 more accurately predicts when you will win, how many kills you'll get, and how many deaths you'll get.

One of the reasons MMR is hidden and you see CSR instead is that MMR can drastically shift from just one game. Apparently this season one player had an MMR shift of +1200 points in a single game, which is equivalent to going from Bronze to Diamond from 1 game. CSR, on the other hand, doesn't shift nearly as much; it's more stable, and the justification is that if you have a really good or really bad game that drastically shifts your MMR, your CSR won't shift as much, so you won't suddenly have a misrepresentation of your skill just from one game. And the next game you'll probably play as expected, so your MMR will start to return to how it should be, and the two values should come together again.
If this is how it's going to be we should be able to see our MMR. It's frustrating being allocated by this new algorithm and we can't see our score so it's as if our rank is only fluctuating.
Chimera30 wrote:
SUNKISTT wrote:
So basically with this MMR idea they're telling us that we are full of ourselves and we actually aren't as good as we think we are I'd really like to know who made that decision..
and what is that based on cuz I really don't get this whole MMR thing what's the point of having a CSR if you have an MMR I can understand this if we're playing a game with 100,000 people Plus but I'm sure we're not near that so what's the point of making it so much more complicated by applying a lot of weight on this MMR wear now it's over taking my CSR I literally can't play now because I don't have a full Squad right now and I usually just go in solo but I can't even think of doing that when even queuing solo I don't get any CSR from a win.
No person is making the decision. MMR has always been around. It used to be calculated by Trueskill1. Now it's calculated by Trueskill2. The reason Trueskill2 is now used to determine MMR is because it's better than Trueskill1; Trueskill2 more accurately predicts when you will win, how many kills you'll get, and how many deaths you'll get.

One of the reasons MMR is hidden and you see CSR instead is that MMR can drastically shift from just one game. Apparently this season one player had an MMR shift of +1200 points in a single game, which is equivalent to going from Bronze to Diamond from 1 game. CSR, on the other hand, doesn't shift nearly as much; it's more stable, and the justification is that if you have a really good or really bad game that drastically shifts your MMR, your CSR won't shift as much, so you won't suddenly have a misrepresentation of your skill just from one game. And the next game you'll probably play as expected, so your MMR will start to return to how it should be, and the two values should come together again.
I disagree, I seem to only see large change when I lose, but if I win it's still only increasing by 1 point. Now in swat as a solo player some how I have to always be the leader and I don't know why that is so if I have one game I can't lead my csr has to drop drastically? I should be Onyx if I'm always leading the diamonds.
Chimera30 wrote:
SUNKISTT wrote:
So basically with this MMR idea they're telling us that we are full of ourselves and we actually aren't as good as we think we are I'd really like to know who made that decision..
and what is that based on cuz I really don't get this whole MMR thing what's the point of having a CSR if you have an MMR I can understand this if we're playing a game with 100,000 people Plus but I'm sure we're not near that so what's the point of making it so much more complicated by applying a lot of weight on this MMR wear now it's over taking my CSR I literally can't play now because I don't have a full Squad right now and I usually just go in solo but I can't even think of doing that when even queuing solo I don't get any CSR from a win.
One of the reasons MMR is hidden and you see CSR instead is that MMR can drastically shift from just one game.
If this is true, then it's not the ideal solution, because, again, if it can vary so much from game to game, it does not represent your real MMR, better says, it's just an average of a couple of last matches.

Spawn points are terrible from time to time. Just because puts you in an inferior position, can get your MMR points by as you said, 1200 in one game, or give to you if you just totally unexpected, spawn behind two/three weak enemies.

Yeah, it still happens, many years after initial release.
Chimera30 wrote:
SUNKISTT wrote:
So basically with this MMR idea they're telling us that we are full of ourselves and we actually aren't as good as we think we are I'd really like to know who made that decision..
and what is that based on cuz I really don't get this whole MMR thing what's the point of having a CSR if you have an MMR I can understand this if we're playing a game with 100,000 people Plus but I'm sure we're not near that so what's the point of making it so much more complicated by applying a lot of weight on this MMR wear now it's over taking my CSR I literally can't play now because I don't have a full Squad right now and I usually just go in solo but I can't even think of doing that when even queuing solo I don't get any CSR from a win.
No person is making the decision. MMR has always been around. It used to be calculated by Trueskill1. Now it's calculated by Trueskill2. The reason Trueskill2 is now used to determine MMR is because it's better than Trueskill1; Trueskill2 more accurately predicts when you will win, how many kills you'll get, and how many deaths you'll get.

One of the reasons MMR is hidden and you see CSR instead is that MMR can drastically shift from just one game. Apparently this season one player had an MMR shift of +1200 points in a single game, which is equivalent to going from Bronze to Diamond from 1 game. CSR, on the other hand, doesn't shift nearly as much; it's more stable, and the justification is that if you have a really good or really bad game that drastically shifts your MMR, your CSR won't shift as much, so you won't suddenly have a misrepresentation of your skill just from one game. And the next game you'll probably play as expected, so your MMR will start to return to how it should be, and the two values should come together again.
I hear you and I like the logic but I think that's kind of Impossible to have a measurement of skill based off of stats with the goal being too make the person push themselves further for me as a Slayer player mainly I can only get all ready 13 deaths at the most more than that and I am taking away from my team and there's no doing better than that other than having less death but having less deaths who doesn't actually make me more skillful sometimes deaths *can actually be used* in order to for someone to *trade a kill or keep some one weak in a power position* so that way the team can then come and create collapse of some sort so the string of kills after I die with all due to me dying if not the first person who pushed it on the collapse would have the 50/50 and would more than likely lose but that's a little too specific I get that but there is somebody making a decision on which variables go into the equation to come out with the value or are you actually saying there's literally no real value of an MMR but no that can't be right either cuz apparently there is a real value that the program reads and inputs into the equation and then having a MMR that's based off of stats not skill while calling it true skill is not correct I don't know a better word for that but skill sometimes requires staying back and not putting in damage for a little bit or something you know damage per minute would go down because you decided to make a smart move there's just too many things to try to input a value for the variable stats stats being skill and this instance I guess but I don't know I still think regardless there's not enough population to include a MMR that affects the CSR so drastically ..... *** players the opportunity to play with other players that they're comfortable with and that are also more experience with the game or even with each other or something like that and so all they have to do is just work together and when the game regardless of MMR because there's already the CSR...*** that matched the players all up in the same game already *** so I don't know if there's like these two different labels for the same thing where one label is just calculating stats within an individual game to affect the entirety of the player's entire history of games MMR I guess if MMR was always there I don't know I just don't get the whole purpose of an MMR if there's not enough people to fill in the the in-betweens of the lot that searching cuz that's how I see MMR to be a useful thing is if you're trying to search with people on focused and you're going to get someone that's more closer to the MMR that you are but again that MMR is based off of stats from all previous games and overtime people do get better so I guess I see what you're saying as it's representing your update or something in relation to how you've always done which I get that makes sense I like that that's that's fair that makes sense but then maybe my problem is this idea of having an overestimated CSR and no I'm not just trying to be salty I just trying to say seriously to have an overestimated CSR based off your MMR then you can't go up it's like a weight that you just can't let go of because you're already supposed to be matching up against other similar mmrs so you should get the win or get the loss which then should calculate your CSR I don't know am I making sense or am I getting something wrong

@8:28 ***edits
Okay okay okay so I see right now the implementation of this type of ranking system is to be followed up by the next season so basically this season right now Almost Doesn't Count so I guess then the worry is because I've heard a lot that based off of your previous season you would get ranked higher or lower maybe this is what all the worry is regardless of the champ is that if a player gets a lower MMR than his CSR at the end of the season how will the MMR CSR be affected in the placement matches of next season because at this point or at least right now I don't want to play because if I have a higher CSR right now then I would at the end of the season... Next season in my placement matches will I get a better placing because my CSR was higher... But as I say that I see what somebody earlier said as well is that a person should play until they start gaining more than just one CSR an earlier I asked if they meant winning or losing until they start gaining CSR so if I keep losing 2003 CSR and then you go down to let's say 1900 where at 1950 1920 I got wins all the rest were losses but then finally at 1900 I get a win and then go Plus 10 or something then I have aligned my MMR with my CSR because they're both at the same value and then will they stay at the same ~ value if I win or lose?
can MMR go up if you lose but drop like a huge stat sheet?
@ all
@ Chimera30
Wahadinho wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
SUNKISTT wrote:
So basically with this MMR idea they're telling us that we are full of ourselves and we actually aren't as good as we think we are I'd really like to know who made that decision..
and what is that based on cuz I really don't get this whole MMR thing what's the point of having a CSR if you have an MMR I can understand this if we're playing a game with 100,000 people Plus but I'm sure we're not near that so what's the point of making it so much more complicated by applying a lot of weight on this MMR wear now it's over taking my CSR I literally can't play now because I don't have a full Squad right now and I usually just go in solo but I can't even think of doing that when even queuing solo I don't get any CSR from a win.
One of the reasons MMR is hidden and you see CSR instead is that MMR can drastically shift from just one game.
If this is true, then it's not the ideal solution, because, again, if it can vary so much from game to game, it does not represent your real MMR, better says, it's just an average of a couple of last matches.

Spawn points are terrible from time to time. Just because puts you in an inferior position, can get your MMR points by as you said, 1200 in one game, or give to you if you just totally unexpected, spawn behind two/three weak enemies.

--->Yeah, it still happens, many years after initial release.<<<<---
---> it's a very rare situation that actually can be forced to happen where the teammates on your team Spawned on from behind but *knowingly and then turn to jump whoever respawns which best case scenario can be followed up by a flood to the other side of the map with a guaranteed number to Advantage
but also sometimes if people have an enemy respawn behind them it's because they didn't move with the team regardless if moving with the team was or was not the right decision
Chimera30 are you going to reply to what i said?
I disagree, I seem to only see large change when I lose, but if I win it's still only increasing by 1 point. Now in swat as a solo player some how I have to always be the leader and I don't know why that is so if I have one game I can't lead my csr has to drop drastically? I should be Onyx if I'm always leading the diamonds.
That's because you are affected by CSR inflation. Hence the change rolled out was designed to correct that specific issue. Once your CSR matches your MMR, you'll see normal CSR gains again for winning.
Chimera30 are you going to reply to what i said?
I don't have all the answers; I'm a forum mod. Nothing I say should be taken as gospel because I just make assumptions based on what Dr. Menke has said in the past. If I don't answer you it's because I can't do it with confidence. Besides, I already addressed you earlier when you were talking about being a more selfish, toxic player. If you're talking about your reply to snickerdoodle, well, some of those things I already addressed to other people. Other points I can't comment on because, again, I'm not privy to the exact workings of the matchmaking system. If you want specific answers from the actual expert then you need to wait until Monday.
Wahadinho wrote:
If this is true, then it's not the ideal solution, because, again, if it can vary so much from game to game, it does not represent your real MMR, better says, it's just an average of a couple of last matches.

Spawn points are terrible from time to time. Just because puts you in an inferior position, can get your MMR points by as you said, 1200 in one game, or give to you if you just totally unexpected, spawn behind two/three weak enemies.
If you have one really bad game that really drops your MMR, then your next game will probably be against weaker opponents than before, and you'll perform extra good, so your MMR will go back up again probably rather quick. So one off game probably won't affect you too much for too long. But a bunch of bad games is a different story. But the game doesn't know if you just had an off game; it can only make judgements based on the data of the match you had. If you have one off game, and it's an outlier, then your next games will show the system that you deserve to go back up in MMR. Similar to if you have one really good, lucky game; then the next games will show the system that you're too high and you'll go back to normal. In a healthy playlist, these types of shifts shouldn't happen that often cause you'll mostly be matched against equal-skilled players. In an unhealthy playlist, unfair matches happen more often, so your MMR might swing up and down more severely, but it should still average out.
Chimera30 wrote:
I disagree, I seem to only see large change when I lose, but if I win it's still only increasing by 1 point. Now in swat as a solo player some how I have to always be the leader and I don't know why that is so if I have one game I can't lead my csr has to drop drastically? I should be Onyx if I'm always leading the diamonds.
That's because you are affected by CSR inflation. Hence the change rolled out was designed to correct that specific issue. Once your CSR matches your MMR, you'll see normal CSR gains again for winning.
Chimera30 are you going to reply to what i said?
I don't have all the answers; I'm a forum mod. Nothing I say should be taken as gospel because I just make assumptions based on what Dr. Menke has said in the past. If I don't answer you it's because I can't do it with confidence. Besides, I already addressed you earlier when you were talking about being a more selfish, toxic player. If you're talking about your reply to snickerdoodle, well, some of those things I already addressed to other people. Other points I can't comment on because, again, I'm not privy to the exact workings of the matchmaking system. If you want specific answers from the actual expert then you need to wait until Monday.
okay if you dont know than I will have to wait until Monday but my question has not been answered and it is common knowledge that stating is how you raise your mmr. This is literally what the new system is doing so you disagreeing with betraying teammates for power weapons being helpful does not answer my question. I will just have to wait.
okay if you dont know than I will have to wait until Monday but my question has not been answered and it is common knowledge that stating is how you raise your mmr. This is literally what the new system is doing so you disagreeing with betraying teammates for power weapons being helpful does not answer my question. I will just have to wait.
On that point, I already pointed you to what Dr Menke said on the matter. The accuracy of Trueskill2 is why it works and why it doesn't incentivice stat-padding. Winning is still the highest priority for MMR. If you play selfishly and your team loses, it won't matter how much you killed or how little you died. According to Dr Menke, selfish play leads to losing and leads to the system noticing that behavior and rewarding you less for it. And betraying teammates for power weapons will get you booted, for one thing.
Chimera30 wrote:
I disagree, I seem to only see large change when I lose, but if I win it's still only increasing by 1 point. Now in swat as a solo player some how I have to always be the leader and I don't know why that is so if I have one game I can't lead my csr has to drop drastically? I should be Onyx if I'm always leading the diamonds.
That's because you are affected by CSR inflation. Hence the change rolled out was designed to correct that specific issue. Once your CSR matches your MMR, you'll see normal CSR gains again for winning.
Chimera30 are you going to reply to what i said?
I don't have all the answers; I'm a forum mod. Nothing I say should be taken as gospel because I just make assumptions based on what Dr. Menke has said in the past. If I don't answer you it's because I can't do it with confidence. Besides, I already addressed you earlier when you were talking about being a more selfish, toxic player. If you're talking about your reply to snickerdoodle, well, some of those things I already addressed to other people. Other points I can't comment on because, again, I'm not privy to the exact workings of the matchmaking system. If you want specific answers from the actual expert then you need to wait until Monday.
Wahadinho wrote:
If this is true, then it's not the ideal solution, because, again, if it can vary so much from game to game, it does not represent your real MMR, better says, it's just an average of a couple of last matches.

Spawn points are terrible from time to time. Just because puts you in an inferior position, can get your MMR points by as you said, 1200 in one game, or give to you if you just totally unexpected, spawn behind two/three weak enemies.
If you have one really bad game that really drops your MMR, then your next game will probably be against weaker opponents than before, and you'll perform extra good, so your MMR will go back up again probably rather quick. So one off game probably won't affect you too much for too long. But a bunch of bad games is a different story. But the game doesn't know if you just had an off game; it can only make judgements based on the data of the match you had. If you have one off game, and it's an outlier, then your next games will show the system that you deserve to go back up in MMR. Similar to if you have one really good, lucky game; then the next games will show the system that you're too high and you'll go back to normal. In a healthy playlist, these types of shifts shouldn't happen that often cause you'll mostly be matched against equal-skilled players. In an unhealthy playlist, unfair matches happen more often, so your MMR might swing up and down more severely, but it should still average out.
Lol great points, in addition to network latency on a fps where milliseconds make the difference. Also te team play is the largest factor. I played a game with Vici (very good swat player #24) and saw him go 6 - 22 because of how the opposing team played strategy not "skill." Now I'm winning about every game without a sweat, if it matches accurately. The system will always be flawed due to lurking variables so keep it simple and focus resources on mechanics and future titles
Chimera30 wrote:
okay if you dont know than I will have to wait until Monday but my question has not been answered and it is common knowledge that stating is how you raise your mmr. This is literally what the new system is doing so you disagreeing with betraying teammates for power weapons being helpful does not answer my question. I will just have to wait.
On that point, I already pointed you to what Dr Menke said on the matter. The accuracy of Trueskill2 is why it works and why it doesn't incentivice stat-padding. Winning is still the highest priority for MMR. If you play selfishly and your team loses, it won't matter how much you killed or how little you died. According to Dr Menke, selfish play leads to losing and leads to the system noticing that behavior and rewarding you less for it. And betraying teammates for power weapons will get you booted, for one thing.
you can betray 3 time before you get booted. Also if winning is all that matter than why does everyone with a high win percentage capped because their stats are not good enough but even if you play against high champs, the champs will have an inflated rank so you will not rank up from beating them. All games are a lose lose scenario even if you are playing the highest rank people in the game because they done deserve their rank either. The only people that the system recognizes are deserving their rank are the people who qualified as high champ. But as I have said above there is an added variance during your qualifiers in that you play whoever you play and if you only get to play against diamonds for example you will be a diamond. From that point of diamond you cannot move forward because even if you are considered a good diamond you will not be rewarded for beating onyx or champs because the champs are now inflated and you are expected to win against the champs as a diamond. I think there is a noticeable difference in this problem when you take the situation of a highly ranked player and the situation of a low ranked player. The low ranked player will be able to improve but the high rank player either is too good for his rank so even if he beats champs he wont go up because he is expected to win, or if you are high ranked you will no longer be able to rank up because your stats arent good enough.

There are catch 22s all over the place that literally cannot be answered or played around. The worst example of this is me and my friend grinding doubles together, getting our ranks up than being told that we both got carried and we can no longer play because even if we beat champions we go up one point.

We have to experience this while there are multiple people out there who played 10 qualifier games and have some of the highest champs in the game.

And finally on top of all of this the suggested way to get your mmr up is to get more kills and less deaths than you normally do. The system wants people to change their play style to one where it may not be the most optimal for winning, but must be the most optimal stat wise. In the long run the people with the highest kill death will be pinned as the best players in the game while the team based playlist (arena/hcs) are 80 percent objective gametypes.

I am not holding ball if the system judges me poorly for doing so.

PS: The people who got ranked high champ from their qualifiers no longer play on that account because they are also in the scenario where there is no upside to them winning so the people that the system decides are good that I could possibly rank up from are all inactive because they have zero incentive to play.

Look I am one person and I am very insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I am just giving you my point of view and i hold no anger or hate.

I just dont want more people to stop playing halo... This is the only video game that I play....

The problem of stating being how people are graded will not balance out and be okay over time. This is something that will be there forever and significantly change what halo is.

As the majority in this thread have already said, If this is what halo is going to be moving forward than I am out. There is literally no way around myself being capped besides playing the smurf lottery.
Im Sorry this game has almost lost its appeal now. So i placed in diamond except in 2 modes doubles, which i dont play because no ones ever on coms, and hcs ranked plat, everything else diamond, ever since the new True-skills 2.0 i have been placed with a lot of players that are just horrible. If this is how its going to be im going to find another game to live stream, people quit, or lag out or mismatched ranking, i dont know why this was implemented so long after the games release but i dont think it should have been done, I thought this was supposed to help the Solo q guys, not make it more diffucult to rank up, and ever since TS 2.0 i have been almost getting nothing but teams of 4 or players that are on the west coast (Live on the east cost) with anything farther away latency seems to be horriable, Hit marker detection and seriously putting whole clips into someone with 0 shields, Players lag around the game and disappear and reappear when in gun fights, i think it needs to be reevaluated, if this is going to be how the next Halo installments going to be you can count me out
i dont know why this was implemented so long after the games release but i dont think it should have been done
It took time to get the implementation of right for Halo 5. It is honestly a good thing we have it as the old Trueskill 1 system did not accurately measure skill. The issues you mention about hit markers and latency have nothing to do with the implemented changes
I'm tired of this game, stuck at Diamond 3, my teammate is Champion, we won a lot of games in a row, and nothing, its kind of boring, you should check my stats, and don't say its because the kills, cause we are a team and we have good teamwork K/D/A.
oOrMuZz wrote:
I'm tired of this game, stuck at Diamond 3, my teammate is Champion, we won a lot of games in a row, and nothing, its kind of boring, you should check my stats, and don't say its because the kills, cause we are a team and we have good teamwork K/D/A.
My team is in the same boat. We aren’t good FFA players but we have a 90 percent win rate this season in slayer because we have played together for almost a decade and work well as a cohesive unit. What I am getting out of this is that in team game modes we are being ranked on individual skill and not team skill. So our Onyx 2000+ rankings will be slowly whittled away one loss at a time despite having a 90 percent win rate as a team.
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I ranked diamond 4 in Slayer, now I'm diamond 6 but I'm stuck there, almost always I play against onyx players and when I win (63.6 win ratio), either I carry my team or we all make a good performance. The thing here is that I can't reach the onyx, everytime I win a match, I get nothing of CSR, literally, and when a lose, I go back to diamond 5 even if I'm half way to get the onyx.
The system thinks I'm being carried?
My MMR is lower than my CSR?
I don't know but it annoyes me a lot cause I know I'm not bad, I've reached champ before and I use to have high-onyx ranks in almost every single playlist.
Hello!

So, I have played H5 since the beginning, (including the beta), under a different GT. However, once this new season rolled out I decided to create a separate account and simply place/rank to see if there would be a large difference between the two accounts.

I've played only 10 placement matches and played with one other individual. The first six matches we won. The last four we lost. I believe three of the four were against Champs/ High Onyx and we were heavily dominated each time - (I barely made it out breaking even on I believe two matches.)

I ranked lower Onyx.

My question is- could you please look up my MMR and show me? I'm curious to what the system feels my skill is truly is located.
Also, were those true champions I played the later half of my placement matches or more examples of inflated CSR stats?

Thank you!
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