Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – May 21

OP ZaedynFel

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ZaedynFel wrote:
Can you tell me what’s my MMR on hcs?
Looks like high Diamond in objective, mid-Diamond in Slayer.

ZaedynFel since you've replied to most other replies above except mine, could I kindly request that you compose a reply to my ideas and proposals that I organized for you in my above paragraphs? I would appreciate direct feedback from you, specifically the 343 personnel member in charge of matchmaking/Skill rating and the programming side of this. Thanks.
Posting in this thread isn't a guarantee of an answer. Majority do not get direct responses for a variety of reasons. If your post is skipped, it's likely for a reason and trying to bump it again can end up in some spam edits.
Yeah, I don't answer if someone has already given a good answer, which was the true in this case.
Was the population particularly in BTB higher than normal last night? I was getting in games fairly quickly during times when it usually takes 3-4 minutes to get a game.
I dont understand how csr can get so inflated. If someone has a 90% win rate and tue skill 2 assesses that they arediamond, doesnt that just mean the original assessment was wrong? If they are truly a diamond and facing other diamonds shouldn't their win percentages be around 50%?

Also why are people getting placed into radically different skill levels on various smurfs. If the system is accurate shouldn't the same player place into the same place every time?
I completely agree with this. I cannot understand HOW CSR can become so ridiculously inflated if the system is truly creating teams of similarly "equal" strength/skill/ability. For instance, I recall my 10 Slayer placement matches in this season. I played in a Fireteam of 2 (not a full TO4) for 7 or so of the matches. One of the matches on Fathom we played against (known) former Champions in the TrueSkill 1 System. My fireteam partner and I BOTH did pretty well going around 13-14 kills against these former champs, while both of our randoms didn't seem to have a brain in their heads ---- they both went something abysmal like 2 kills/14 deaths and were somehow ALREADY RANKED Diamond-4, yet the matchmaker didn't seem to care and at the end of my 10 Slayer placement matches my friend got Champion-25 and I ranked Diamond-2 (and my friend also had a disconnect on one of the matches immediately when the match started). I truly can't make sense of this stuff. I used to be Champion-127 in Slayer in TrueSkill 1, but calling me "Diamond-2" while still consistently matching me up AGAINST current champions whether I play on my main account or my Alt accounts truly makes me believe this matchmaking system is HIGHLY dubious and questionable. Realistically, if I can kill and hold my own well against Onyxes and Champs --- I shouldn't be ranked Diamond. 343, you've written that it's most heavily influenced by WHO you kill and WHO killed you and how you performed in comparison to those people, but the system SHOULD give you fair compensation for an understanding of when your teammates are EXTREMELY inferior players and don't really contribute at all to the match.

ALSO: ZaedynFel:
I duly noted your remediation strategy for converging the MMR and CSR which apparently, for most players, has become erroneous.

Why not just immediately RECTIFY the ranks as they are at the moment, with everyone's rank? Acccomodate for how much they've gone up or down in their past history of ranked matches this season, and just +/- their rank based on that, but start with the baseline of what their rank should have been from the beginning, had everyone been ranked correctly in the first place had the CSR/MMR disparities not existed. Why not just correct this in the system so that everyone is current immediately, rather than making everyone play yet more matches to correct the disparity. You follow me?
OK, fine everyone, I concede that "radarenigma" made a fairly reasonable response to my main query on my original reply; however, I thought it was self explanatory that the former of my paragraphs posed a question. I suppose I'll have to rephrase it in true question form, if that's what's needed here. But Snickerdoodle and Menke, you're only partially correct: my concerns were only partially addressed by someone and not entirely.

When I stated that "I cannot understand HOW CSR can become so ridiculously inflated if the system is truly creating teams of similarly "equal" strength/skill/ability", I really did mean that as a query. So I'll re-pose the question then:

HOW can/could everyone's CSR can become so inflated as stated, if the system was truly creating teams of similarly "equal" strength/skill/ability? By definition, equal or balanced matchmaking shouldn't construct opposing teams which result in consistently blowout matches, and a lot of that has been going on this season as many people have been posting throughout the entire Halowaypoint forum. Why did this issue perpetrate itself in the first place, that players developed hyperinflated CSRs contrasting enormously with their MMR? What was the fault in the matchmaking system, or the error? This is the (***UNANSWERED***) question I mused about in paragraph one of my post, which wasn't really addressed by anyone.

You should also note that Free Milksteak voiced an identical concern about this exact matter prior to myself, so there is more than just one person inquiring as to this discrepancy and its origins. We'd all like to understand! Also, when is this convergence of CSR and MMR implementation targeted to take place? Do you have a target date set?
Here's my two cents: For the past several resets I was being ranked higher than I should have been based on my skill and was against players I should not have been. After finishing my ten games to get rank, I was back at my skill. The update fixed the gameplay issue with relation to skill, so my best guess is that some players are matching oddly depending on skill. I for one will enjoy playing my own rank again instead of high level players.
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Well, if I'm not mistaken, it's this part of radar3301enigma's post that kinda hints at part of the cause of your concern.
[I ] believe this matchmaking system is HIGHLY dubious and questionable.
Well, you're not entirely wrong... Remember, there are TWO different systems at work here: the Skill system, which predicts a certain chance that a given team of players win, and the Matchmaking system, which attempts to set games up that are mostly likely to be balanced.
If the Matchmaking system can create a game that's close to 50/50, it'll lock it in and start the game. Unfortunately, the Matchmaking system can only achieve 50/50 games if the population is large enough at any given time at a specific tier that it doesn't have to compromise. This is most likely when the discrepancy between CSR and MMR starts occurring. Matches between a mix of ranks (most commonly occurs when a high-ranking guy is partied up with a low-ranking guy).

If a Plat-tier player ends up on the same team as an Onyx-tier player, that Plat-tier player reaps the benefits of that Onyx player's work if they win. So while his CSR will go up, his MMR most likely won't if he didn't play particularly well enough to convince the system that he deserves a bump. Rinse and repeat for similar situations. CSR's go up unimpeded while MMR's change very little.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Two main comments this week.
Why am I matching against Champ / Onyx parties, often with only Diamond-level (or worse) teammates?We have seen concerns with matching what appear to be stronger teams than expected. What you are seeing is their visible ranks, or CSR, and is not the most accurate measure of skill. MMR is way more accurate at predicting who will win. Usually this isn’t a problem because the two values stay relatively close to each other. There is a new issue where there are players with CSRs significantly higher than their MMRs. What appears to be a team of Champs is often actually a team of average Diamond players. Rest assured that despite appearances the matches are close in MMR.

To reduce the confusion, we will be rolling out a change in the coming weeks that will keep CSR more in sync with MMR. A player who with CSR above their MMR will not gain points on a win and will lose a small number of points on a loss. On the other hand, players with CSR below their MMR will not lose points on a loss and will gain a decent amount of points on a win. Players will see their CSR converge to their MMRs over the course of several matches.

Because the season didn’t begin with the change, not all players will have their CSRs in the correct spot by the end of the season, and while not perfect, this won’t affect who they get matched against.

Starting next season, players will start with their CSR behind their MMR like usual, Champs will start at 1700, and then everyone will climb towards their MMR. Once players reach their MMR, they will stay in sync after that. MMR can still change over the course of the season, but CSR will quickly converge on it.

So, in short, you are almost certainly not matching Champs with Diamonds for teammates, you are actually all Diamonds and we will make this more clear soon.
This part is particularly interesting to me. Last season I think the highest I hit was plat 6 in HCS now I'm high diamond/low onyx. I'm not sure if I'm one of those players whose CSR is much higher than their MMR but I'd like to know so I'm not in for a big shock when the update comes out.

Can you tell me my MMR so I know what to expect?
Something is definitely a bit wacky with the new rankings. I placed Plat 3 and 4, in Arena and slayer which I have Never ever done in the past, because I generally solo queue and I suck relatively speaking. I’m interest to see how I rank in other games modes.
Something is definitely a bit wacky with the new rankings. I placed Plat 3 and 4, in Arena and slayer which I have Never ever done in the past, because I generally solo queue and I suck relatively speaking. I’m interest to see how I rank in other games modes.
I discuss this in last week's post. You are Plat compared to the lifetime of the list. You've definitely gotten better over time. Everyone is shifted up because everyone still playing now is better than the average player in the list.
This part is particularly interesting to me. Last season I think the highest I hit was plat 6 in HCS now I'm high diamond/low onyx. I'm not sure if I'm one of those players whose CSR is much higher than their MMR but I'd like to know so I'm not in for a big shock when the update comes out.

Can you tell me my MMR so I know what to expect?
Diamond in Obj, Plat in Slayer.

mmr
I know this has been asked (even by me at some point I'm sure lol) but what EXACTLY determines your rank? I know wins and losses plays a part, as well as the skill level of the competition but anything else? I can't recall if K/A/D matter along as damage dealt.

Depending on what the answer is, I have a follow up question as well if damage dealt does apply.
I know this has been asked (even by me at some point I'm sure lol) but what EXACTLY determines your rank? I know wins and losses plays a part, as well as the skill level of the competition but anything else? I can't recall if K/A/D matter along as damage dealt.

Depending on what the answer is, I have a follow up question as well if damage dealt does apply.
I'm pretty sure all the other stats are taken into consideration with regards to your MMR, but as far as your rank is concerned (CSR), wins and losses is all that matters.
Well, at least I'm seeing what everyone is talking about with Slayer. Played five games of placements and only one game of opponents didn't have a full party (the only game I won), and I only had one game where there was a party on my team. None of the games were that close in score and two of them were ridiculous as well with having a champion and three higher onyx's on the other team. That may not be their actual MMR rank (who knows) like mentioned in the OP, but it doesn't really make a difference when my team is getting steaked or almost steaked by them and I'm going badly negative.

I don't really get why I would be put in those two games which I'm assuming were skill capped when Slayer is the number two most popular playlist. Is the population that bad? I've been getting better matches in BTB around the same playing times and that's saying something. Oh, well.
Yes, then you update it. It's horrible. This new rank system its worst idea. Came up with. It's very bad. Because the players with the higher ranks playing against players with the Lord rings and it's not fair. You guys take all the fun from the game. Right now, it's not even possible to play Halo matchmaking no more. Can I get aggravated how bad it is? Please. Fix the game. That's horrible right now. Bettongia very bad idea with this new update and new ranking system. Please fix the game. Can make the game like supposed to be fun? It's not like a piece of s***.
Oops, didn't mean to post.

I guess I'll make the most of it. Any chances for a BTB refresh? I saw that WZ was just updated so I hope there's still a chance for other playlists as well.
i get what you are trying to do and how this true skill2 system is set up. but its not working how you intended it im sure because if it is then there's a big mess up. i ranked plat 4/5 on both accounts but played high dimonds and onyx several times. i even quit out of games when playing 4 player teams. Its not fair to solo quers no matter what the matchmake says. Something that also plays a factor is conection and funny enough your location in the world to the servers so ive heard, it applies to WZ too which is abitt better but solo queing is risk , if i que with two of my friends start to have bad games stright away things like blank shots radar detction even lgy game play. i know no this is has no direct conection to do whith trueskill2. its afactor though in getting a fair balanced game thats great to play. Keep. at it please but find a way cos close games are fun though stressful.
ZaedynFel wrote:
i have no complaints. i think arena has improved, bc i dont hear the cry babies whine as much. i love faving champs and onyx players. i love playing against the best in any game type. w, l, or draw, i rather fight hard over stomp weaker opponets constantly.
Can someone explain to me how I lose to 2 champs and as as onyx lose 40 CSR? I’m not too well versed and how this new TS2 system works it’s a lot of guessing rn
This clamping change sounds like exactly what the ultra-skilled solo queuers need, hopefully it helps the HCS leaderboard be a bit more accurate.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.
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I know this has been asked (even by me at some point I'm sure lol) but what EXACTLY determines your rank? I know wins and losses plays a part, as well as the skill level of the competition but anything else? I can't recall if K/A/D matter along as damage dealt.

Depending on what the answer is, I have a follow up question as well if damage dealt does apply.
I'm pretty sure all the other stats are taken into consideration with regards to your MMR, but as far as your rank is concerned (CSR), wins and losses is all that matters.
I knew about wins and losses for CSR (even know I just placed one of my lowest ever and had a very good win/lost ration... But I digress here...) But as far as MMR goes, if that is true, I must say I massively disagree with including damage dealt and accuracy even.

Accuracy because you can do extremely well (many people do too) and have garbage accuracy.

Damage dealt is a big concern for me. I've been thinking about this more in the last few months and it dawned on my friends and I that I generally have some of the lowest damage on the team. Not because I'm bad, but because I don't care if I get power weapons or not. To me, damage dealt can be very misleading.

For example, if I play with my buddy he gives me rockets usually because I'm better with them then he is. We could both have the same K/A/D but if I'm using power weapons, like rockets, I'll be a lot higher in damage then him as Rockets deal high damged. Same with sniper. I always give it to him as he's better with it. We have matches where I'm mainly just watching his sides/back while he shoots. We could have similar stats or the same even but he'll always have way higher damage because he had a power weapon and I didn't (and alot if maps have sniper lol) Does that mean I'm better then him or visa versa? No, not at all in my opinion.

If this is true and was more widely know, I think people would be pretty unhappy. Including damage dealt only encourages people on the same team to fight over weapons, or even worst, betray your teammates for them. Again, if this was true and more widely know, it would be an issue. Most people still think Halo is all about wins and losses and thats it, because that's what it used to be.

I don't know....Halo used to be only about wins and looses for ranks and in my opinion, it should only be about that (in team playlists obviously) I really feel like halo is starting to shift away from wins and looses are the only thing that matters, too wins and looses are important, but your personal stats matter too. I just don't think it's right in a TEAM playlist. Personal stats are great to look at, I LOVE stats!!! and are great references... especially when someone says something like your crap, but when they see your overall stats you make them eat there words lol

It would be great if we could actually find out 100% what determines your MMR and CSR. I'm sure it has been said before and I'm sorry for asking again but this is something that people ask a lot so maybe there should be a page explaining this in detail for anyone to see or something along these lines. Having something in game would be even better but I know that's not going to happen... in Halo 5 at least. One can hope in Halo 6.
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