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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – May 21

OP ZaedynFel

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I know this has been asked (even by me at some point I'm sure lol) but what EXACTLY determines your rank? I know wins and losses plays a part, as well as the skill level of the competition but anything else? I can't recall if K/A/D matter along as damage dealt.

Depending on what the answer is, I have a follow up question as well if damage dealt does apply.
I'm pretty sure all the other stats are taken into consideration with regards to your MMR, but as far as your rank is concerned (CSR), wins and losses is all that matters.
I knew about wins and losses for CSR (even know I just placed one of my lowest ever and had a very good win/lost ration... But I digress here...) But as far as MMR goes, if that is true, I must say I massively disagree with including damage dealt and accuracy even.

Accuracy because you can do extremely well (many people do too) and have garbage accuracy.

Damage dealt is a big concern for me. I've been thinking about this more in the last few months and it dawned on my friends and I that I generally have some of the lowest damage on the team. Not because I'm bad, but because I don't care if I get power weapons or not. To me, damage dealt can be very misleading.

For example, if I play with my buddy he gives me rockets usually because I'm better with them then he is. We could both have the same K/A/D but if I'm using power weapons, like rockets, I'll be a lot higher in damage then him as Rockets deal high damged. Same with sniper. I always give it to him as he's better with it. We have matches where I'm mainly just watching his sides/back while he shoots. We could have similar stats or the same even but he'll always have way higher damage because he had a power weapon and I didn't (and alot if maps have sniper lol) Does that mean I'm better then him or visa versa? No, not at all in my opinion.

If this is true and was more widely know, I think people would be pretty unhappy. Including damage dealt only encourages people on the same team to fight over weapons, or even worst, betray your teammates for them. Again, if this was true and more widely know, it would be an issue. Most people still think Halo is all about wins and losses and thats it, because that's what it used to be.

I don't know....Halo used to be only about wins and looses for ranks and in my opinion, it should only be about that (in team playlists obviously) I really feel like halo is starting to shift away from wins and looses are the only thing that matters, too wins and looses are important, but your personal stats matter too. I just don't think it's right in a TEAM playlist. Personal stats are great to look at, I LOVE stats!!! and are great references... especially when someone says something like your crap, but when they see your overall stats you make them eat there words lol

It would be great if we could actually find out 100% what determines your MMR and CSR. I'm sure it has been said before and I'm sorry for asking again but this is something that people ask a lot so maybe there should be a page explaining this in detail for anyone to see or something along these lines. Having something in game would be even better but I know that's not going to happen... in Halo 5 at least. One can hope in Halo 6.
Damage dealt and accuracy are not part of the TS2 model.

In the old system, a really bad player could team up with a bunch of really good players. If they only play with that team, they would get a really good rank. The system couldn't properly identify that that player sucks and didn't really contribute to the team's success. Then, if they were to go play with a different team, or even just a bunch of random people (solo), the system would be expecting them to perform a lot better than they are capable. Maybe they could get carried like before, but if the odds weren't in their favor of getting teamed up with actual good players, and instead got teamed up with other bad players who were also misidentified as being better, then... I hope that result is obvious.

In the new system (where some personal stats like kills and deaths are taken under consideration) a really bad player is correctly identified as only being able to contribute to a win against really good players by, say 5%. Then if they play solo for a few games, the system only expects them to contribute 5% against other really good players, but also expects them to contribute 25% against players of their same skill level.

The stats that are considered are:
  • Win/loss
  • Party/Fireteam size
  • Experience in a given playlist (games played)
  • Kill count
  • Death count
  • Did the player quit?
These are not:
  • Assists
  • Damage dealt
  • Accuracy
  • Objective grabs/scores/pulls/points
  • Etc...
Can someone explain to me how I lose to 2 champs and as as onyx lose 40 CSR? I’m not too well versed and how this new TS2 system works it’s a lot of guessing rn
You can't lose more than 30 in a match, so 40 won't happen.

Those Champs probably are not actually Champs.

CSR is based on your current CSR vs. your opponents' MMR.

Though, like stated here, we are updating it to be based more directly on your own MMR instead.
"There is a new issue where there are players with CSRs significantly higher than their MMRs. What appears to be a team of Champs is often actually a team of average Diamond players. Rest assured that despite appearances the matches are close in MMR."

I have seen this many times and, when it does happen, it seems to create a very uneven match. I'll solo queue team slayer, lose by 30, and find out that I was matched with a gold, a plat, and a diamond (at the time, I was a diamond 6) and we played a team of onyx. I have been on the other end too where we are stomping teams by 25+.

I know this is going to happen from time to time but I feel like it is happening more often since the new matchmaking system was implemented. Is the MMR truly that accurate if this is the case?
Competition and dropped games update.

In terms of competition the Matchmaking is better in Truskill 2. Me and my crew typically play from 9pm PST to 12 or 1am PST

Fail to Match a game (Red screen of death - BTB only)
2015- 2017 - 3 to 5 times total. Wasn't keeping hardcore track because it was extremely rare.
OT Update - 56 times in a month (A combination of the Matchmaking thinking the opposition didn't have a chance and a couple of low pop situations)
Next update - 22 times in a month (20 of 22 fails were having 16/16 but before it could officially load one dropped and was never replaced. 3min later fail to match).
Next update - 12 times in a month (All 12 times were the situation of losing a player but we also had more frozen screens than this issue (cause for losing most players). Overall we would see about 1 frozen screen and/or fail to match make per night. It was unfortunate but we could digest one bad thing happening every 3hr night.

Truskill 2 - 18 times since May 1st. Granted it appears most red screens of death have occurred after 11pm PST (2am EST). For BTB teams of 6 or less have only red-screened 4 times. Squads of 7 or 8 has failed to match 14 times. 10 of those 14 never found a match. The other 4 found 16 and then lost players and never got back to 16.
Hopefully this won't jinx it, but the last week of BTB was pretty good when I played it. I got into games quickly and I only played a couple bigger parties while most seemed to be solo teams.
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Would you be able to comment on these three quoted posts? I don't think Kereznikov will post them himself, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are on them because I don't think they're correct. Thanks!

Quote:
Problem: The Match Making system is currently designed to designate one player as the teams "carry" player by using what some players have referred to as the Hidden MMR System.

This way of pairing players is very innefective and does NOT create a balanced team, even in ranked. This system also creates a larger skill gap for the player to contend with as they cannot improve on their skills when continuously paired with players who are drastically below thier current skill level.

In order for a player to improve on thier skills they must be able to play against and with other players who are above their current skill level. For lower level players this will always be the case as the team they'll be put on will also have a designated player who is ranked much higher. Alternatively for higher level players this is almost NEVER the case. Higher level players are often paired with players who are of a much lower skill level rather than being paired with players of equivalent skill level.

Solution: Pair players EXCLUSIVELY based on rank.
Pair players with others who are at equivelent rank, or slightly above, but at the most one rank below.

Example: Rank Diamond Level 2 players are to be paired with other players ranked Diamond Level 2, but may be paired with players of a higher level up to the low level Onyx ranks, but may also be paired with players of lower rank as low as Platinum2, but never below Platinum2. This would allow for more evenly paired matches, especially in ranked
Quote:
I have read the post you suggested and I believe my point is still valid. Let's say the player has an MMR of 1700(max) and a CSR of Diamond 2, that player is more likely to be paired with players of a lower MMR rather than players of equivalent MMR, yet cannot be paired with players whose MMR is greater than thier own as that player has achieved the maximum MMR of 1700. This would then force that player of Diamond 2 to be paired with players as low as Gold2 based on how close the MMR is, but could be paired against a group of Champions, once again based on how close the MMR would be. This in turn results in the player with the max MMR being forced to act as the team's "carry" player.
The system itself may not choose a player to act as the "carry" but it sure is forcing players to do so.
Quote:
I made a pretty large thread regarding the MMR system yesterday but I was also less informed than what I wanted to be, so I spent 7 hours researching the MMR system and now I realize it's actually MUCH worse than I had previously stated. Essentially the system calculates all stats into the MMR including games played and win percentage, even in regards to warzone games.

This means if you have a high win percentage in Warzone your MMR will increase even if you have NEVER played any other gametype. I believe it is possible to achieve max MMR while playing Warzone exclusively, which I intend to prove by creating a new account solely for this purpose.
If my experiment is successful I should be able to achieve a high MMR by exclusively playing in the Warzone and Firefight playlists.

If that's the case then there could be players on your team who have never played a ranked match and could be pairing with Diamond or Platinum level players and matching against Onyx or Diamond Level players, due to thier high MMR.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Can someone explain to me how I lose to 2 champs and as as onyx lose 40 CSR? I’m not too well versed and how this new TS2 system works it’s a lot of guessing rn
You can't lose more than 30 in a match, so 40 won't happen.

Those Champs probably are not actually Champs.

CSR is based on your current CSR vs. your opponents' MMR.

Though, like stated here, we are updating it to be based more directly on your own MMR instead.
It was around 30 then I’m still a little confused. So a champ doesn’t actually count as a champ as far as CSR is concerned?
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Would you be able to comment on these three quoted posts? I don't think Kereznikov will post them himself, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are on them because I don't think they're correct. Thanks!
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Quote:
Solution: Pair players EXCLUSIVELY based on rank.
Pair players with others who are at equivelent rank, or slightly above, but at the most one rank below.

Example: Rank Diamond Level 2 players are to be paired with other players ranked Diamond Level 2, but may be paired with players of a higher level up to the low level Onyx ranks, but may also be paired with players of lower rank as low as Platinum2, but never below Platinum2. This would allow for more evenly paired matches, especially in ranked
This is technically what happens (depending on playlist tuning; I believe Slayer is currently tuned at 1 tier). But to look at "slightly above, but at the most one rank below" from the other side, the lower ranked player (Platinum 2) is being matched with a (more than just slightly) higher ranked player (Diamond 2).

---

Quote:
player has an MMR of 1700(max) and a CSR of Diamond 2, that player is more likely to be paired with players of a lower MMR rather than players of equivalent MMR, yet cannot be paired with players whose MMR is greater than thier own [...]
Well, statistics says "duh". Assuming 1000 players (distributed across all skill level in the same ratios as the overall population) are searching at the exact same time, an Onyx 1500 player only has 18 people to match with of equivalent skill. Given that most Onyx-level players usually team up with each other, this only makes things worse.

Allowing them to only match upwards gives all of Onyx (10% of the searching population; e.g. in our thousand-player argument, 100 players). Allowing them to match downwards as well (up to 1 tier, i.e. Diamond 1), provides 161 additional players to match with. Once again though, many high-ranked players are teamed up with each other, which again reduces this number.

(see here and here)

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Quote:
I made a pretty large thread regarding the MMR system yesterday but I was also less informed than what I wanted to be, so I spent 7 hours researching the MMR system and now I realize it's actually MUCH worse than I had previously stated.
I'm going to pick this quote apart.

Quote:
Essentially the system calculates all stats into the MMR including games played and win percentage, even in regards to warzone games.
**MMR is calculated per playlist, meaning that you will have a different MMR in Slayer than you do in SWAT, or in HCS, or Warzone, or Super Fiesta, etc.
Regarding the stats used to calculate MMR, see my previous post.

Quote:
This means if you have a high win percentage in Warzone your MMR will increase even if you have NEVER played any other gametype.
It depends on who you play against.

Your MMR goes up when:
  • you beat a team you were expected to lose to, providing your actual performance met or exceeded the expected performance.
Your MMR stays the same when:
  • you beat a team you were expected to beat (I believe regardless of performance)
There are other scenarios that increase your MMR, but I can't think through them all at the moment.

Quote:
I believe it is possible to achieve max MMR while playing Warzone exclusively, which I intend to prove by creating a new account solely for this purpose.
If my experiment is successful I should be able to achieve a high MMR by exclusively playing in the Warzone and Firefight playlists.
  1. Firefight has no MMR. Period. Josh confirmed this a while ago. I can dig up the relevant post, or you can take my word for it.
  2. There is no "max" MMR. It just doesn't mean anything once you are past a certain point (actually, given an infinite population of players, it does mean something, but there aren't an infinite number of players). Also, in efforts to find you a game to play, the matchmaker (not the skill system) places a max cap on your MMR.
  3. See ** above.
Quote:
If that's the case then there could be players on your team who have never played a ranked match and could be pairing with Diamond or Platinum level players and matching against Onyx or Diamond Level players, due to thier high MMR.
Players who have never played a match before are considered Platinum 1 until the system has enough data on their performance and who they have played against to make the appropriate adjustments. And no, they don't have a high MMR until those adjustments are made.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Can someone explain to me how I lose to 2 champs and as as onyx lose 40 CSR? I’m not too well versed and how this new TS2 system works it’s a lot of guessing rn
You can't lose more than 30 in a match, so 40 won't happen.

Those Champs probably are not actually Champs.

CSR is based on your current CSR vs. your opponents' MMR.

Though, like stated here, we are updating it to be based more directly on your own MMR instead.
It was around 30 then I’m still a little confused. So a champ doesn’t actually count as a champ as far as CSR is concerned?
Doesn't count as a champ as far as MMR is concerned (since it's a super accurate measure of their skill).

So MMR is the judge, CSR follows it around.
radar3301enigma's Answers
His answers are right.

The matchmaker tries its best to do exactly what you've described, but in lower pop playlists has to at some point ignore TrueSkill2's suggestions and just make a match -- even with a large gap. If we were to enforce the same gap in HCS that we enforce in Slayer, higher-skilled players would never find a match because there never are 8 players near their skill searching.

TrueSkill2 has already proven to be the best method for measuring skill I've seen, based on measuring the outcome of actual match results. If it is predicting the outcomes better, then it knows you better as a player.

If also learns the connections between every game mode and every other game mode. So if you start in Warzone and do well, it knows how much that performance translates to your performance in, e.g., Slayer. So when you play your first game of Slayer, it has already mapped you correctyl. We know the mapping is correct overall because players that make that transition behave as expected --- we've checked.

If it's working correctly, and much more accurate than before, then it's doing its job.
This is a really bad update to Halo 5 I have alot of evidence this system is flawed for Halo 5 (TrueSkill2). Marleydavinci is a champion 65 in Slayer. He plays with a team of four and wins 85% of his games. Looking deeper into game history, Marleydavinci plays against platinum players and low diamonds with 2 champions and 2 onyxs on this team. Please tell me how this is being calculated for true skill. I suspect that it is because Marley does horrible in all other game types and trueskill2 takes this into account and makes him play platinums as a champion. I think we have been cheated out of a better Halo with this update. I can only find games when I search with one other player as recommended by a mod. When I Amplafied play with one other player as an Onyx I can't find a game and when I do it is because there are platinums online with a team of champions on the other. Unfortunately Halo does not have the population of players as much as it did when it launched so this system makes it extremely difficult to find a game. I think we all should be upset in the fact that this system will prevent you from finding a game indefinitely in a otherwise dieing franchise. Good job 343 not sure how you can F UP a game 3 years after launch.
Amplafied wrote:
This is a really bad update to Halo 5 I have alot of evidence this system is flawed for Halo 5 (TrueSkill2). Marleydavinci is a champion 65 in Slayer. He plays with a team of four and wins 85% of his games. Looking deeper into game history, Marleydavinci plays against platinum players and low diamonds with 2 champions and 2 onyxs on this team. Please tell me how this is being calculated for true skill. I suspect that it is because Marley does horrible in all other game types and trueskill2 takes this into account and makes him play platinums as a champion. I think we have been cheated out of a better Halo with this update. I can only find games when I search with one other player as recommended by a mod. When I Amplafied play with one other player as an Onyx I can't find a game and when I do it is because there are platinums online with a team of champions on the other. Unfortunately Halo does not have the population of players as much as it did when it launched so this system makes it extremely difficult to find a game. I think we all should be upset in the fact that this system will prevent you from finding a game indefinitely in a otherwise dieing franchise. Good job 343 not sure how you can F UP a game 3 years after launch.
Same answer I gave you in PM:

It looks like you didn't read the actual update in this post. Those Onyx and Champ CSRs are incorrect and are not coming from TrueSkill, which is something we are fixing.It sounds like you are complaining about someone elses' Rank? I'm not sure how that's relevant to you. But that player is a Platinum player and not a Champ, despite their visible rating (which we are fixing, he will be Plat next season). In addition, his opponents have averaged low Diamond, as have his teammates. So on average he is a high Plat player with low Diamond teammates playing against low Diamond teams. He is not a Champ, neither are his teammates, and they aren't even Onyx.

Your own MMR is definitely Onyx.
Hey Josh can I ask what caused the inflation of ones CSR over there MMR? Was this something that was just normal at the time? Ive been trying to keep up with things here but sorry if I missed the explanation.. Also is my CSR and MMR close or is my CSR inflated? Im very curious to know if this is happening to me. Or is there away for me to calculate this myself? Thanks again!
So is their some sort of weird crappy to be in middle ground with the new ranking system. I’m sure population has to come into play but when I’m matching solo I match with players around my skill level which isn’t a problem regardless of our difference in rank, the problem I face is the up hill climb the teammates I’m matched with face. Their obviously out matched in just about every game and game type most of the time dropping kills in the single digits and making what could be a good evenly matched experience into a constant struggle and loss of rank. After a while I’ll get matched with people so far below me that my teammates no longer can help the other team win. So that’s the spot I’m in.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Amplafied wrote:
This is a really bad update to Halo 5 I have alot of evidence this system is flawed for Halo 5 (TrueSkill2). Marleydavinci is a champion 65 in Slayer. He plays with a team of four and wins 85% of his games. Looking deeper into game history, Marleydavinci plays against platinum players and low diamonds with 2 champions and 2 onyxs on this team. Please tell me how this is being calculated for true skill. I suspect that it is because Marley does horrible in all other game types and trueskill2 takes this into account and makes him play platinums as a champion. I think we have been cheated out of a better Halo with this update. I can only find games when I search with one other player as recommended by a mod. When I Amplafied play with one other player as an Onyx I can't find a game and when I do it is because there are platinums online with a team of champions on the other. Unfortunately Halo does not have the population of players as much as it did when it launched so this system makes it extremely difficult to find a game. I think we all should be upset in the fact that this system will prevent you from finding a game indefinitely in a otherwise dieing franchise. Good job 343 not sure how you can F UP a game 3 years after launch.
Same answer I gave you in PM:

It looks like you didn't read the actual update in this post. Those Onyx and Champ CSRs are incorrect and are not coming from TrueSkill, which is something we are fixing.It sounds like you are complaining about someone elses' Rank? I'm not sure how that's relevant to you. But that player is a Platinum player and not a Champ, despite their visible rating (which we are fixing, he will be Plat next season). In addition, his opponents have averaged low Diamond, as have his teammates. So on average he is a high Plat player with low Diamond teammates playing against low Diamond teams. He is not a Champ, neither are his teammates, and they aren't even Onyx.

Your own MMR is definitely Onyx.
Thanks for the quick response! Read the OG post and was satisfied. Thank you again.
Hey Josh can I ask what caused the inflation of ones CSR over there MMR? Was this something that was just normal at the time? Ive been trying to keep up with things here but sorry if I missed the explanation.. Also is my CSR and MMR close or is my CSR inflated? Im very curious to know if this is happening to me. Or is there away for me to calculate this myself? Thanks again!
I'm showing you as maybe 100-120 inflated, which isn't terrible.

The causes are a bit varied and depend on your actual skill level, but being carried seems to be most of it.

The old MMR was more easily fooled by carries, so if your CSR went up higher than it should, the MMR would go up as well, so they would still stay relatively close to each other.

The new MMR isn't as easily fooled, so it doesn't rise quicky with the CSR on long win streaks. To combat it, the CSR system is supposed to start making wins worth less and less, and losses cost more and more. It does do this actually, but it's not able to keep pace with some win percentages.

Instead of digging much deeper into the causes, we'll go to a system that's more direct anyways.
KR3MIS wrote:
So is their some sort of weird crappy to be in middle ground with the new ranking system. I’m sure population has to come into play but when I’m matching solo I match with players around my skill level which isn’t a problem regardless of our difference in rank, the problem I face is the up hill climb the teammates I’m matched with face. Their obviously out matched in just about every game and game type most of the time dropping kills in the single digits and making what could be a good evenly matched experience into a constant struggle and loss of rank. After a while I’ll get matched with people so far below me that my teammates no longer can help the other team win. So that’s the spot I’m in.
Do you have a playlist or links?

Lower pop lists will often result in wide gaps between the best and worse player in the match. But, when this happens, it means the other team also has an equivalent amount of skill.
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Can someone explain to me how I lose to 2 champs and as as onyx lose 40 CSR? I’m not too well versed and how this new TS2 system works it’s a lot of guessing rn
You can't lose more than 30 in a match, so 40 won't happen.

Those Champs probably are not actually Champs.

CSR is based on your current CSR vs. your opponents' MMR.

Though, like stated here, we are updating it to be based more directly on your own MMR instead.
It was around 30 then I’m still a little confused. So a champ doesn’t actually count as a champ as far as CSR is concerned?
Doesn't count as a champ as far as MMR is concerned (since it's a super accurate measure of their skill).

So MMR is the judge, CSR follows it around.
Then why were champs grinding during the beginning? Was it a bug or intended that way? I know a bunch of champs were ranked d4-6 this season and had to grind back to champ. It was kind of annoying. They won 10/10 placement matches and had a 6.0 overall kda for those 10 matches (they went up against champs as well) I was one of them for elimination facing champs etc had to grind. Was that intended since MMR is different than CSR and it should be smooth from here on out?
ZaedynFel wrote:
So if you start in Warzone and do well, it knows how much that performance translates to your performance in, e.g., Slayer. So when you play your first game of Slayer, it has already mapped you correctyl. We know the mapping is correct overall because players that make that transition behave as expected --- we've checked.
How accurate would those performance translations be in Warzone though? I could see it in Arena playlists, but wouldn't OP REQ's inflate their actual skill too much? For example, a bronze skilled player could go 25-0 in a tank or with a Nornfang for a few games if they had decent teammates who controlled the map.

For me, I would wonder how well it would take into account different starting weapons. In BTB for example, we start with a BR and when I play something like Slayer it's magnum starts. My BR and magnum aiming skills are definitely not the same so I would do worse in a magnum start playlist. I'm guessing it would start me too high and then figure out where I really belong after a game or two.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
So if you start in Warzone and do well, it knows how much that performance translates to your performance in, e.g., Slayer. So when you play your first game of Slayer, it has already mapped you correctyl. We know the mapping is correct overall because players that make that transition behave as expected --- we've checked.
How accurate would those performance translations be in Warzone though? I could see it in Arena playlists, but wouldn't OP REQ's inflate their actual skill too much? For example, a bronze skilled player could go 25-0 in a tank or with a Nornfang for a few games if they had decent teammates who controlled the map.

For me, I would wonder how well it would take into account different starting weapons. In BTB for example, we start with a BR and when I play something like Slayer it's magnum starts. My BR and magnum aiming skills are definitely not the same so I would do worse in a magnum start playlist. I'm guessing it would start me too high and then figure out where I really belong after a game or two.
The mapping helps with that. If the BTB BR didn't translate well to the HCS magnum, then the value that tells us how much to trust BTB's skill when creating an HCS player would be lower.

It combines your other lists, and then has a kind of discount for playing a list for your first time, and a mapped learning curve per list.
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Can someone explain to me how I lose to 2 champs and as as onyx lose 40 CSR? I’m not too well versed and how this new TS2 system works it’s a lot of guessing rn
You can't lose more than 30 in a match, so 40 won't happen.

Those Champs probably are not actually Champs.

CSR is based on your current CSR vs. your opponents' MMR.

Though, like stated here, we are updating it to be based more directly on your own MMR instead.
It was around 30 then I’m still a little confused. So a champ doesn’t actually count as a champ as far as CSR is concerned?
Doesn't count as a champ as far as MMR is concerned (since it's a super accurate measure of their skill).

So MMR is the judge, CSR follows it around.
Then why were champs grinding during the beginning? Was it a bug or intended that way? I know a bunch of champs were ranked d4-6 this season and had to grind back to champ. It was kind of annoying. They won 10/10 placement matches and had a 6.0 overall kda for those 10 matches (they went up against champs as well) I was one of them for elimination facing champs etc had to grind. Was that intended since MMR is different than CSR and it should be smooth from here on out?
10/10 with 6.0 KDA is subpar compared to what MMR would count as a Champ, and the "Champs" they went up against were likely Diamonds in disguise.

With the fix, all of you will start Diamond and stay Diamond unless your MMRs actually get into Onyx.
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