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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – May 21

OP ZaedynFel

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Appreciate the further breakdown eLantern! I was not aware they were making these changes, it's increasing by a small amount with each win, moreso now than it was earlier.

Still a little bummed, but it makes sense in the long run. Time to grind!
What's PGCRs?

Also- what were the odds on this game?

The whole match felt pretty one sided. I felt like I barely had to lift a finger.

Just curious as to why me and my friend were matched up with and against Onyxes.
eLantern wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
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Quote:
That's not a skill system though, that's a grind / XP system and makes Ranks meaningless. If you want that, then grind 152.The Ranks are supposed to be a measure of skill, not a measure of how many games you have played. We don't want worse players ranking higher just because they played more. That's not a skill-based system.
It seems that Josh's idea of CSR is such that you shouldn't be able to "grind" to Champ, and that you should only be rated Champ if your skill reflects that.
There should still be some "grind" to Champ once next season starts since on rank reset the max CSR anyone can achieve will be Onyx 1700 after placement. Those with an MMR greater than that will have to grind matches to allow their CSR to catch-up to their above 1700 MMR.
I think there is a difference between "grinding" to Champ and "reaffirming that you belong" in Champ. I think the latter is why max CSR is set to 1700 for qualifying. But from the description of Trueskill2, if you are truly a Champ then you should get back to that rating with only a few games after qualifying; it wouldn't be much of a grind to get back there if you belong. It's a different story if you are trying to get to the point where you belong there; in that respect, Josh is saying that you should only increase in rank if your skill actually increases, as opposed to increasing in rank just because you happened to get a few wins.

D M4N8 wrote:
What's PGCRs?
Post Game Carnage Reports.
D M4N8 wrote:
What's PGCRs?

Also- what were the odds on this game?

The whole match felt pretty one sided. I felt like I barely had to lift a finger.

Just curious as to why me and my friend were matched up with and against Onyxes.
PGCR = Post Game Carnage Report
D M4N8 wrote:
What's PGCRs?

Also- what were the odds on this game?

The whole match felt pretty one sided. I felt like I barely had to lift a finger.

Just curious as to why me and my friend were matched up with and against Onyxes.
Predicted to be pretty close, though from the stats vs. predictions it looks like the bottom two losers tilted compared to how they usually perform. Their MMRs dropped commensurately.
bearhound wrote:
If I’m understanding correctly, next season I would place 200 CSR below my MMR. And then anytime I lose I only lose 1 CSR, and when I win I gain 15 CSR, up until my CSR matches my MMR. And then it reverses (gain 1 CSR for win, lose 15 for loss) once my CSR exceeds MMR. Is that accurate?

If the above is accurate, it sounds like your ranks aren’t based on W/L, and you can get rank locked? If MMR says you’re mid diamond but your CSR is low onyx, the only way to stay onyx is to win 15 games for every 1 loss, right? And when your CSR matches your mid diamond MMR, then you’re essentially rank locked? How does this incentivize players to keep playing?
First, Ranks were never based on just W/L, but opponent difficulty and teammate strength.

Second, yes, that's how it will work.

Third, you can get Rank locked if you don't get better / worse.

Fourth, it's a skill system, not a reward system. It was never meant as a carrot. So it incentivizes you if you want to know your real skill vs. the wrong one, which a lot of people do.
UK1V wrote:
ZaedynFel are you able to see right now what my true rank should be for all my current placements? I am feeling a savage result coming on but hey, this beats trying to grind for something that I'm not and suffering the whole -15 +1 scenarios. Thanks in advance!
All of your placements? Dang.

Breakout: Onyx
Slayer: Diamond
Team Arena: Almost Onyx, but not great at Oddball
FFA: Onyx
Elimination: Plat
Doubles: Diamond
HCS: Top Plat
SWAT: Diamond
ZaedynFel wrote:
UK1V wrote:
ZaedynFel are you able to see right now what my true rank should be for all my current placements? I am feeling a savage result coming on but hey, this beats trying to grind for something that I'm not and suffering the whole -15 +1 scenarios. Thanks in advance!
All of your placements? Dang.

Breakout: Onyx
Slayer: Diamond
Team Arena: Almost Onyx, but not great at Oddball
FFA: Onyx
Elimination: Plat
Doubles: Diamond
HCS: Top Plat
SWAT: Diamond
Breakout and Elimination?
ZaedynFel wrote:
bearhound wrote:
If I’m understanding correctly, next season I would place 200 CSR below my MMR. And then anytime I lose I only lose 1 CSR, and when I win I gain 15 CSR, up until my CSR matches my MMR. And then it reverses (gain 1 CSR for win, lose 15 for loss) once my CSR exceeds MMR. Is that accurate?

If the above is accurate, it sounds like your ranks aren’t based on W/L, and you can get rank locked? If MMR says you’re mid diamond but your CSR is low onyx, the only way to stay onyx is to win 15 games for every 1 loss, right? And when your CSR matches your mid diamond MMR, then you’re essentially rank locked? How does this incentivize players to keep playing?
First, Ranks were never based on just W/L, but opponent difficulty and teammate strength.

Second, yes, that's how it will work.

Third, you can get Rank locked if you don't get better / worse.

Fourth, it's a skill system, not a reward system. It was never meant as a carrot. So it incentivizes you if you want to know your real skill vs. the wrong one, which a lot of people do.
Thanks for the response. To me Halo’s ranked experience has always been great because if you win you go up. In h3 true skill could rank lock you, and myself and many others didn’t like that aspect. H5 started great, but this new change really kills the desire for me and my friend to play once we see the rank lock set in. It’s very unfortunate that the objective of the game mode is to win, but winning won’t result in ranking up after you make up the 200 CSR/MMR gap.

To respond to your tweet you linked, even I would have voted for “tell it to me straight.” But in my mind “tell it to me straight” is next season the ranking system does its job and ranks me where I belong, but then if I win more than I lose I go up. I still have the ability to win games and increase my rank. So although I would have voted that way, I disagree in the implementation, and I’m probably not the only person who feels that way.

Also, I’m generally curious how my friend and I are rank locked (“bearhound” and “timetogetnastyy” are our GTs). We’ve played 68 slayer games this season, every game in the same 2 man party, with a 41-27 record and KD of 1.33 and 1.35. It’s really odd that we’re winning 60% of our matches and going positive, but rank locked.
bearhound wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
bearhound wrote:
If I’m understanding correctly, next season I would place 200 CSR below my MMR. And then anytime I lose I only lose 1 CSR, and when I win I gain 15 CSR, up until my CSR matches my MMR. And then it reverses (gain 1 CSR for win, lose 15 for loss) once my CSR exceeds MMR. Is that accurate?

If the above is accurate, it sounds like your ranks aren’t based on W/L, and you can get rank locked? If MMR says you’re mid diamond but your CSR is low onyx, the only way to stay onyx is to win 15 games for every 1 loss, right? And when your CSR matches your mid diamond MMR, then you’re essentially rank locked? How does this incentivize players to keep playing?
First, Ranks were never based on just W/L, but opponent difficulty and teammate strength.

Second, yes, that's how it will work.

Third, you can get Rank locked if you don't get better / worse.

Fourth, it's a skill system, not a reward system. It was never meant as a carrot. So it incentivizes you if you want to know your real skill vs. the wrong one, which a lot of people do.
Thanks for the response. To me Halo’s ranked experience has always been great because if you win you go up. In h3 true skill could rank lock you, and myself and many others didn’t like that aspect. H5 started great, but this new change really kills the desire for me and my friend to play once we see the rank lock set in. It’s very unfortunate that the objective of the game mode is to win, but winning won’t result in ranking up after you make up the 200 CSR/MMR gap.

To respond to your tweet you linked, even I would have voted for “tell it to me straight.” But in my mind “tell it to me straight” is next season the ranking system does its job and ranks me where I belong, but then if I win more than I lose I go up. I still have the ability to win games and increase my rank. So although I would have voted that way, I disagree in the implementation, and I’m probably not the only person who feels that way.
Your MMR should go up with wins and more so if you're exceeding your individual performance expectation and defeating opponents which TS2 sees as better than your team, so I don't know how you can say, "...winning won't result in ranking up...". CSR plays a type of catch-up over time to your MMR which is primarily based on winning, but also incorporates individual performance in order to more accurately depict your skill and so that it's not as easy to be carried or earn CSR you don't necessarily deserve.
Quote:
Also, I’m generally curious how my friend and I are rank locked (“bearhound” and “timetogetnastyy” are our GTs). We’ve played 68 slayer games this season, every game in the same 2 man party, with a 41-27 record and KD of 1.33 and 1.35. It’s really odd that we’re winning 60% of our matches and going positive, but rank locked.
Statistics such as winning 60% of your matches and your K/D ratios still remain relative to your opponent's skill levels. Performing well and winning should ensure you remain or improve in your skill level (MMR/CSR), but you won't see any grand jumps unless you're constantly winning matches against opponents (set-up by the matchmaker) which are viewed by TS2 as being better than you. However, it's worth understanding that if you're on the above average side of the population bell curve you're more likely to face opponents that are less skilled than yourself simply because of basic probabilities which can also somewhat inflate a person's win percentages a bit though it's not a guarantee as you fall mercy to the luck of the matchmaker. Nevertheless, the value of any win is going to be primarily determined by the opponent strength in relation to your own team strength.
How easy is it to increase your MMR? Does it take 100s of games or does it change dramatically per game? For example if I was a diamond 3 in HCS and then played like a god for the next 10 games how much would my MMR increase?

Earlier I was running with a slayer team and and we dominated every game yet I only went up one point. I was not being carried apart from one game when they all quit and I was practising jumps so went 1-4 or something is it that the population is to low to give us high Mmr players?
eLantern wrote:
bearhound wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
bearhound wrote:
If I’m understanding correctly, next season I would place 200 CSR below my MMR. And then anytime I lose I only lose 1 CSR, and when I win I gain 15 CSR, up until my CSR matches my MMR. And then it reverses (gain 1 CSR for win, lose 15 for loss) once my CSR exceeds MMR. Is that accurate?

If the above is accurate, it sounds like your ranks aren’t based on W/L, and you can get rank locked? If MMR says you’re mid diamond but your CSR is low onyx, the only way to stay onyx is to win 15 games for every 1 loss, right? And when your CSR matches your mid diamond MMR, then you’re essentially rank locked? How does this incentivize players to keep playing?
First, Ranks were never based on just W/L, but opponent difficulty and teammate strength.

Second, yes, that's how it will work.

Third, you can get Rank locked if you don't get better / worse.

Fourth, it's a skill system, not a reward system. It was never meant as a carrot. So it incentivizes you if you want to know your real skill vs. the wrong one, which a lot of people do.
Thanks for the response. To me Halo’s ranked experience has always been great because if you win you go up. In h3 true skill could rank lock you, and myself and many others didn’t like that aspect. H5 started great, but this new change really kills the desire for me and my friend to play once we see the rank lock set in. It’s very unfortunate that the objective of the game mode is to win, but winning won’t result in ranking up after you make up the 200 CSR/MMR gap.

To respond to your tweet you linked, even I would have voted for “tell it to me straight.” But in my mind “tell it to me straight” is next season the ranking system does its job and ranks me where I belong, but then if I win more than I lose I go up. I still have the ability to win games and increase my rank. So although I would have voted that way, I disagree in the implementation, and I’m probably not the only person who feels that way.
Your MMR should go up with wins and more so if you're exceeding your individual performance expectation and defeating opponents which TS2 sees as better than your team, so I don't know how you can say, "...winning won't result in ranking up...". CSR will then catch-up over time (with wins), which is quicker now, to your MMR which again is primarily based on winning, but also incorporates individual performance so that it's not as easy to be carried or earn CSR you don't necessarily deserve.
Quote:
Also, I’m generally curious how my friend and I are rank locked (“bearhound” and “timetogetnastyy” are our GTs). We’ve played 68 slayer games this season, every game in the same 2 man party, with a 41-27 record and KD of 1.33 and 1.35. It’s really odd that we’re winning 60% of our matches and going positive, but rank locked.
Statistics such as winning 60% of your matches and your K/D ratios still remain relative to your opponent's skill levels. Performing well and winning should ensure you remain or improve in your skill level (MMR/CSR), but you won't see any grand jumps unless you're constantly winning matches against opponents (set-up by the matchmaker) which are viewed by TS2 as being better than you. However, it's worth understanding that if you're on the above average side of the population bell curve you're more likely to face opponents that are less skilled than yourself simply because of the probabilities which can also somewhat inflate win percentages. Nevertheless, the value of any win is going to be primarily determined by the opponent strength in relation to your own team strength.
What annoys me about this is it’s not really clear how to increase your MMR and how long it would take to go up to get me out of rank lock. With the old system, if I win a game, depending who I beat I could go up 5 CSR, 15 CSR, etc. And same if I lose, depending who I played I would go down 5, 15, etc. Wins and losses were all that mattered to go up or down, and the amount up/down was also dependent on opponents. So I know that as long as I win more than I lose i’ll increase my rank. Now it sounds like, assuming you have reached your MMR, a win is only going to get you 1 CSR, and a loss loses 15. And there’s no indication of how many wins or how positive I have to play in order to raise my MMR and let me rank up more than 1 CSR in a win. So I feel like in future seasons you have 10 pointless placement matches that will just put you 200 behind your MMR, then in roughly 30 matches you’ll be rank locked (assuming 50% win rate, you gain 225 csr in 15 wins and lose 15 csr in 15 losses, making up net positive 210 CSR). I guess the TLDR of this paragraph is the old system you just had to win games, the new system you’re stuck, and it’s not clear how hard it will be to get out of rank lock. Halo 3 wasn’t fun when you’d get rank locked and need to win 10+ games in a row just to rank up, and lose it immediately after 1 loss. The new system seems like that.

And as it pertains to this season specifically, my friend and I played and won three matches last night and gained 3 CSR. So we just stopped playing that playlist because there was no point. no matter how well we played, how much we won, we were just going to rank down because eventually we would lose.
Boomy EU wrote:
How easy is it to increase your MMR? Does it take 100s of games or does it change dramatically per game? For example if I was a diamond 3 in HCS and then played like a god for the next 10 games how much would my MMR increase?

Earlier I was running with a slayer team and and we dominated every game yet I only went up one point. I was not being carried apart from one game when they all quit and I was practising jumps so went 1-4 or something is it that the population is to low to give us high Mmr players?
I’m in the same boat. That’s what’s frustrating about the new system. There’s really no way to know how much MMR fluctuates. Do I have to play well 10 games, 50 games, etc? And on top of that, unless I’m mistaken MMR takes into account your individual performance, which is what halo reach’s failed ranking system tried to do. After placement matches Halo should really only be looking at wins and losses and who you beat in order to change rank. Not how you played.
bearhound wrote:
...
It seems as though you simply value a less accurate skill indicator (aka CSR) as long as it follows a basic principle of increasing; therefore, I get the sense that the quality of the skill-based matchmaking (SBMM) and in-turn match game-play are less important to you than being able to observe an inflated CSR.

Sorry, but I'd much rather have Halo's matchmaking system operate with the goal of trying it's best to not only accurately understand my skill, but also then match-make me as best as it can based on that more accurate understanding of my skill. Plus, for the playlists that provide me with a visual indicator of my skill (aka CSR) I'd like to know that what I'm seeing is more or less a fairly accurate indicator of my actual skill (aka "give it to me straight"). If it seems like I become rank locked after CSR converges with my MMR then I'm willing to accept that I'm, more or less, performing as expected and I'm happy that the match-maker is doing it's best to give me competitively fair matches -- at least based on playlist population circumstances.

Is the joy not in being able to play competitive matches while also getting an accurate understanding of where your skill truly exists?

Or is the joy for you only in seeing your CSR continue to rise via a basic win regardless of the real value of that win?
eLantern wrote:
bearhound wrote:
...
It seems as though you simply value a less accurate skill indicator (aka CSR) as long as it follows a basic principle of increasing; therefore, I get the sense that the quality of the skill-based matchmaking (SBMM) and in-turn match game-play are less important to you than being able to observe an inflated CSR.

Sorry, but I'd much rather have Halo's matchmaking system operate with the goal of trying it's best to not only accurately understand my skill, but also then match-make me as best as it can based on that more accurate understanding of my skill. Plus, for the playlists that provide me with a visual indicator of my skill (aka CSR) I'd like to know that what I'm seeing is more or less a fairly accurate indicator of my actual skill (aka "give it to me straight"). If it seems like I become rank locked after CSR converges with my MMR then I'm willing to accept that I'm, more or less, performing as expected and I'm happy that the match-maker is doing it's best to give me competitively fair matches -- at least based on playlist population circumstances.

Is the joy not in being able to play competitive matches while also getting an accurate understanding of where your skill truly exists?

Or is the joy for you only in seeing your CSR continue to rise via a basic win regardless of the real value of that win?
You say that it sounds like quality of SBMM and the gameplay are less important to me. However, I would counter that by pointing out that this change has absolutely no impact on who I play against. SBMM hasn’t changed. The quality of matches before and after this are unaffected, because we are matched based on MMR (correct me if I’m wrong). I want quality matches first and foremost. But the new system is the same as the old in that regard.

So the only thing that has changed is that once I’ve reached the level/rank the game thinks I am, my visible rank is essentially locked (or if it can go up, it’s not clear how long that would take).

“Is the joy not in being able to play competitive matches while also getting an accurate understanding of where your skill truly exists?” — if the system ranked everyone out of placement correctly in the first place, then I would argue that if I win more than I lose my visible rank should go up, and that’s an accurate representation of my skill that season.

“Or is the joy for you only in seeing your CSR continue to rise via a basic win regardless of the real value of that win?” — If I keep winning the value of the win is that my rank should go up (IMO). You win you go up, you lose you go down. The joy for me is knowing that if I play well enough to win I can keep going up. When my friend and I place diamond 3 we then gear up for the climb to onyx, knowing we’ll only make it there if we win enough. And if we reach onyx early in the season, we keep playing to see where we level out (level out by losing, not because the game determines we’ve leveled out). Rank lock kills that, or at the very least makes ranking up a much harder and longer process because you have to win so many more games than usual. There have been seasons and/or playlists where we don’t reach onyx. But it’s because we stop winning. We’ve leveled out to the competition. It’s not because the game said “no your CSR is wrong now, you only get 1 CSR on a win.”
So, last two days has been pretty weird in the terms of CSR rewarding and demoting.

Tonight, I and my squad won 4 games in a row and I got 1 CSR point in Onyx per each. It was the party of one onyx, two diamonds and one plat in the enemy team, same was on my team and matchmaking. Almost every time I was getting one onyx to play against, two diamonds and one plat.

The problem is that there were no rewarding at all, but then I lost two in a row and I lost 40 CSR Onyx points? Last night, for one game against 3 Onyxes and one diamond, I lost 29 points of Onyx CSR.

Is something broken or this is ”the new way”. Because if it is, there is no point in playing any matches with randoms any more, if I'm not getting anything for wins and losing a lot for loses...
It seems to me the whole point of a video game is being ignored for the sake of competition. Games are supposed to be fun! Not so competitive in every mode that the new player gets stomped from the time they start playing. I've seen so many new players get discouraged because the games are so mismatched from the first game they play and then they get their butts stomped with no way to learn how to, or even play the game. Well they quit and don't come back...
It's not fun for a beginning player to be matched with anyone above their tier, nor is it fun to be matched in any game mode with seasoned players and you get your a__ stomped from the time you spawn. Halo has always been the best game I've ever played. Physics for moving your avatar and the works. In social, match everyone equally in their perspective skill rating. It's so much fun to play when everyone on the board has the same skill to play against one another. I'm referring to WZ. Just my 2 cents... I don't bomb on devs nor would I. You guys have your work cut out for you give us a good game for H6. Especially campaign, funny grunts and easter eggs.... lol.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Hey Josh can I ask what caused the inflation of ones CSR over there MMR? Was this something that was just normal at the time? Ive been trying to keep up with things here but sorry if I missed the explanation.. Also is my CSR and MMR close or is my CSR inflated? Im very curious to know if this is happening to me. Or is there away for me to calculate this myself? Thanks again!
I'm showing you as maybe 100-120 inflated, which isn't terrible.

The causes are a bit varied and depend on your actual skill level, but being carried seems to be most of it.

The old MMR was more easily fooled by carries, so if your CSR went up higher than it should, the MMR would go up as well, so they would still stay relatively close to each other.

The new MMR isn't as easily fooled, so it doesn't rise quicky with the CSR on long win streaks. To combat it, the CSR system is supposed to start making wins worth less and less, and losses cost more and more. It does do this actually, but it's not able to keep pace with some win percentages.

Instead of digging much deeper into the causes, we'll go to a system that's more direct anyways.
Thanks Josh for the reply. I had a hunch mine was inflated. But the sad thing is its not a skill issue im running into but a performance issue that arises during game play. For some odd reason I get this slowing effect that sets in and once that occurs there isn't much I can do. The whole game falls out of sync and that pretty much ends it. This isn't just happening to me in the same game either. It seems to happen to a few of us in each game. Strange thing is when TS2 went live the game performed awesome for about a good week. But then this slowing effect set in. Ive noticed when you guys do a update or something rather major the game plays awesome after. My guess is either the servers are being refreshed or maintenance is being done at the same time.. Ive noticed this over the course of H5 life.. Its a performance roller coaster playing this game. I chatted with a few friends of mine the other night and we have all noticed this in some form or fashion.. Many players have a hard time noticing this. Because everything seems fine but yet there not. This issue I speak of doesn't show itself as lag but a slowing effect that throws the game off.These bloated CSRs that other players likely have is very likely caused but what im trying to describe here..
Wahadinho wrote:
Is something broken or this is ”the new way”.
It's explained in the OP. The game is trying to correct inflated or deflated CSR ranks.

-----

Josh, I've been noticing lately in BTB that there will usually only be one or two higher skilled people on each team and the rest will be around average or below average skill. Is that supposed to be happening cause it's reminding me of the previous skill system days before you tightened everything up. I'm not complaining, but it just feels kind of odd when I haven't had that for awhile.
I've noticed when you guys do a update or something rather major the game plays awesome after. My guess is either the servers are being refreshed or maintenance is being done at the same time..
From memory, each match is spun up in its own instance in Azure, so you're getting a fresh server (so to speak) every time. Not the best explanation, but I've lost the post I had where Dr. Menke mentioned this a few months back
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