Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – May 21

OP ZaedynFel

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Why not just try starting everyone at the bottom tier and actually grind the rest of halo 5s life until halo 6 comes out?
Dr Menke has addressed this repeatedly. While this method is great for the people at the top, the retention for all the players the stomp on their way to the top is bad. If the system knows you aren't a bronze player, why should you have to play bronze kids to prove you aren't bronze? Other than, "I want to feel good and stomp all the bad kids" that is.
Smurphs are doing the same thing already. The good thing about the old system is that the top players in fact will reach the middle to top, and then no longer be at the bottom with the bottom players eventually actually being to grind their rank upwards. How it is now we see ranks not reflecting mmr, and lopsided matches 2+years into a game with the same players playing it for the most part.

As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.

This has nothing to do with players stomping on the lower guys. I'm not sure if you were trying to imply that's what I want, or if that's what kind of player I am. I'm not very high rank myself. Though each seseason we see problem with placements have we not? If that wasn't the case...then why are we here stressing over the placement and ranking system if it was working fine all along? Even with this new change we're still seeing people come to the forums being redirected here aren't we?

Menke repeatedly says that, while we repeatedly say this.
Smurphs are doing the same thing already. How it is now we see ranks not reflecting mmr, and lopsided matches 2+years into a game with the same players playing it for the most part.

As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
The new system can detect smurfs a lot faster so they won't be able to stomp on lower ranks as much. It's also only been active for maybe a month. It's likely correcting two years of what the old system failed to do which is why this temp fix is being implemented.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Smurphs are doing the same thing already. How it is now we see ranks not reflecting mmr, and lopsided matches 2+years into a game with the same players playing it for the most part.

As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
The new system can detect smurfs a lot faster so they won't be able to stomp on lower ranks as much. It's also only been active for maybe a month. It's likely correcting two years of what the old system failed to do which is why this temp fix is being implemented.
Why not combined all that works? I do notice a decrease in smurphing. It wont ever be completely gone of course, but it's definitely noticable.
Why not combined all that works?
Not sure what you want combined, but this fix and the skill system are combined. Maybe temp fix isn't the correct word since I think it's always going to do this, but it might be less prominent once your CSR and MMR are equal. This is something that would be better answered by Dr Menke.
As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
Players not going up but going down in CSR have inflated CSRs, meaning their CSRs are not accurate representations of their skills. So if they don't want to get on, it means they'd rather keep their fake skill over their true skill, because it makes them seem better than they are to everyone else. So what you're saying is that people care more about how other players think of them than actually playing the game itself.

Give people a system where everyone can get the rank they want and they complain it's meaningless. Give them a system that shows their true skill and they complain because they hate to be told they're not as good as they'd hoped they are. It's a lose-lose scenario.
I hate this new system. What is the point in me playing for hours and hours to essentially just cap out and only Increse by 1 CSR per match. I was 1709 in breakout, and lost one game and won another. Ever since that 1 win I now only gain 1 each time. This is annoying as it means I basically just lose hours and hours of gameplay from just a few loses. I get why it was changed but this system is just awful, espically as there is no indication of what mmr a player is at.
nPlasma wrote:
I hate this new system. What is the point in me playing for hours and hours to essentially just cap out and only Increse by 1 CSR per match. I was 1709 in breakout, and lost one game and won another. Ever since that 1 win I now only gain 1 each time. This is annoying as it means I basically just lose hours and hours of gameplay from just a few loses. I get why it was changed but this system is just awful, espically as there is no indication of what mmr a player is at.
Read the OP. It literally explains all this and why it's happening.
nPlasma wrote:
I hate this new system. What is the point in me playing for hours and hours to essentially just cap out and only Increse by 1 CSR per match. I was 1709 in breakout, and lost one game and won another. Ever since that 1 win I now only gain 1 each time. This is annoying as it means I basically just lose hours and hours of gameplay from just a few loses. I get why it was changed but this system is just awful, espically as there is no indication of what mmr a player is at.
You can tell what your MMR is when you get to a point where you win a game against close-matched enemies and go up more than 1 CSR. At that point it will mean your CSR and MMR have converged, and your CSR reflects your actual skill instead of an inflated fake skill.

Or you could ask ZaedynFel for your MMR in a particular playlist, to have an idea of how inflated you are.
Chimera30 wrote:
As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
Players not going up but going down in CSR have inflated CSRs, meaning their CSRs are not accurate representations of their skills. So if they don't want to get on, it means they'd rather keep their fake skill over their true skill, because it makes them seem better than they are to everyone else. So what you're saying is that people care more about how other players think of them than actually playing the game itself.

Give people a system where everyone can get the rank they want and they complain it's meaningless. Give them a system that shows their true skill and they complain because they hate to be told they're not as good as they'd hoped they are. It's a lose-lose scenario.
Well, what about all of the other players who are high-level players and their ranks actually do accurately represent their skills but now with this new system we can't even play because of the one csr gain after every win? I literally ran into two High Onyx and Champ teams last night and we all agreed on one thing. There's no point in grinding the game right now because we gain nothing out of it. Currently, I am an Onyx 1828 in Slayer and I can't even grind for champ anymore because the new system believes I am not a good enough player to hold the rank... If I am beating some of the top guys in the playlists, and your system apparently thinks that their ranks don't accurately represent them either who am I suppose to beat to prove that my rank is accurate? This new system is only hurting the population even more and if beating the top guys doesn't prove anything then I don't know what else to do with a system like this.
Chimera30 wrote:
As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
Players not going up but going down in CSR have inflated CSRs, meaning their CSRs are not accurate representations of their skills. So if they don't want to get on, it means they'd rather keep their fake skill over their true skill, because it makes them seem better than they are to everyone else. So what you're saying is that people care more about how other players think of them than actually playing the game itself.

Give people a system where everyone can get the rank they want and they complain it's meaningless. Give them a system that shows their true skill and they complain because they hate to be told they're not as good as they'd hoped they are. It's a lose-lose scenario.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is progressing up vs progressing down. Would you enjoy amy any system where you can win 10 matches in a row and lose 1 and lose what almost feels like double in 1 match than you gained in 10? Players mainly want a sense of progression. Otherwise they don't see it worth the time playing. Look at what everyone's saying. They're pointing out progress despite it looking like all they care about is staying at a high rank. What do the new threads popping up keep saying?

Going down a whole lot, but almost non existent up.

Editing this in - Do you think players might better appreciate a reset with the new placements reflecting their true skill vs leaving it as is right now?
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
Hey Josh,

I was just wondering if TrueSkill2 predicts match score differentials given that it already predicts win percentage and K/D ratios for the individual players and if so does it factor MMR adjustments based on whether or not teams managed to finish within certain ranges of the predicted score differential? I think you've mentioned previously that it does not. In fact, I think you've said that the system only factors whether or not a team won or loss and that the score differential didn't matter because it can be a somewhat unreliable metric, but since the system also looks at individual performances it's able to make any additional +/- skill adjustments based off that particular metric instead. Is this understanding correct?
Corxpt wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
Players not going up but going down in CSR have inflated CSRs, meaning their CSRs are not accurate representations of their skills. So if they don't want to get on, it means they'd rather keep their fake skill over their true skill, because it makes them seem better than they are to everyone else. So what you're saying is that people care more about how other players think of them than actually playing the game itself.

Give people a system where everyone can get the rank they want and they complain it's meaningless. Give them a system that shows their true skill and they complain because they hate to be told they're not as good as they'd hoped they are. It's a lose-lose scenario.
Well, what about all of the other players who are high-level players and their ranks actually do accurately represent their skills but now with this new system we can't even play because of the one csr gain after every win? I literally ran into two High Onyx and Champ teams last night and we all agreed on one thing. There's no point in grinding the game right now because we gain nothing out of it. Currently, I am an Onyx 1828 in Slayer and I can't even grind for champ anymore because the new system believes I am not a good enough player to hold the rank... If I am beating some of the top guys in the playlists, and your system apparently thinks that their ranks don't accurately represent them either who am I suppose to beat to prove that my rank is accurate? This new system is only hurting the population even more.
If you're a high-tier player and only gaining 1 CSR per win, it could means one of two things:
  1. Your CSR isn't actually an accurate reflection of your skill after all.
  2. You won a match against weaker enemies, so since you were expected to win you didn't really show that you increased in skill.
Again, the change rolled out only affects people with inflated CSRs, so if you're affected, it means your CSR is too high. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but ask yourself what you want from a ranking system: something that accurately represents your skill, or something that just makes you look good to other people?

You say you consistently beat the top people in the playlist, but if they also have inflated CSR then they aren't really the top players. And if they do happen to be the top players, then what would happen behind the scenes is that your MMR will go up every time you win, even if your CSR doesn't. So when you MMR catches up, you'll start gaining more CSR again if you keep winning.
Chimera30 wrote:
As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
Players not going up but going down in CSR have inflated CSRs, meaning their CSRs are not accurate representations of their skills. So if they don't want to get on, it means they'd rather keep their fake skill over their true skill, because it makes them seem better than they are to everyone else. So what you're saying is that people care more about how other players think of them than actually playing the game itself.

Give people a system where everyone can get the rank they want and they complain it's meaningless. Give them a system that shows their true skill and they complain because they hate to be told they're not as good as they'd hoped they are. It's a lose-lose scenario.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is progressing up vs progressing down. Would you enjoy amy any system where you can win 10 matches in a row and lose 1 and lose what almost feels like double in 1 match than you gained in 10? Players mainly want a sense of progression. Otherwise they don't see it worth the time playing. Look at what everyone's saying. They're pointing out progress despite it looking like all they care about is staying at a high rank. What do the new threads popping up keep saying?

Going down a whole lot, but almost non existent up.

Editing this in - Do you think players might better appreciate a reset with the new placements reflecting their true skill vs leaving it as is right now?
It's a ranking system, not a progression system. If you aren't getting better at the game, your rank shouldn't increase just because you're playing. If you aren't increasing, your skill likely isn't increasing and you don't deserve to move up in rank just because you're playing. You're conflating ranking with progression.
Chimera30 wrote:
Corxpt wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
Players not going up but going down in CSR have inflated CSRs, meaning their CSRs are not accurate representations of their skills. So if they don't want to get on, it means they'd rather keep their fake skill over their true skill, because it makes them seem better than they are to everyone else. So what you're saying is that people care more about how other players think of them than actually playing the game itself.

Give people a system where everyone can get the rank they want and they complain it's meaningless. Give them a system that shows their true skill and they complain because they hate to be told they're not as good as they'd hoped they are. It's a lose-lose scenario.
Well, what about all of the other players who are high-level players and their ranks actually do accurately represent their skills but now with this new system we can't even play because of the one csr gain after every win? I literally ran into two High Onyx and Champ teams last night and we all agreed on one thing. There's no point in grinding the game right now because we gain nothing out of it. Currently, I am an Onyx 1828 in Slayer and I can't even grind for champ anymore because the new system believes I am not a good enough player to hold the rank... If I am beating some of the top guys in the playlists, and your system apparently thinks that their ranks don't accurately represent them either who am I suppose to beat to prove that my rank is accurate? This new system is only hurting the population even more.
If you're a high-tier player and only gaining 1 CSR per win, it could means one of two things:
  1. Your CSR isn't actually an accurate reflection of your skill after all.
  2. You won a match against weaker enemies, so since you were expected to win you didn't really show that you increased in skill.
Again, the change rolled out only affects people with inflated CSRs, so if you're affected, it means your CSR is too high. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but ask yourself what you want from a ranking system: something that accurately represents your skill, or something that just makes you look good to other people?

You say you consistently beat the top people in the playlist, but if they also have inflated CSR then they aren't really the top players. And if they do happen to be the top players, then what would happen behind the scenes is that your MMR will go up every time you win, even if your CSR doesn't. So when you MMR catches up, you'll start gaining more CSR again if you keep winning.
I don't believe I said I consistently beat any kind of player or skill level? Did I say that somewhere? I added an edit to my last reply you may have not seen. Can you read the last part and maybe give your 2 cents on it?

And yea, of course we want our skill represented properly. It's how it's being done that's the issue.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is progressing up vs progressing down. Would you enjoy amy any system where you can win 10 matches in a row and lose 1 and lose what almost feels like double in 1 match than you gained in 10? Players mainly want a sense of progression. Otherwise they don't see it worth the time playing. Look at what everyone's saying. They're pointing out progress despite it looking like all they care about is staying at a high rank. What do the new threads popping up keep saying?

Going down a whole lot, but almost non existent up.
Why should you go up if you win against enemies who weren't at your level? Why should you go up if your CSR is higher than your true skill? If you want to be a Champ, you should show that you're better than the existing Champs. Beating a bunch of Diamonds doesn't make you Champ-worthy, no matter how many times you beat them. And, as has been said, if you are gaining 1 CSR per win but losing 10-15 per loss, it means your CSR is too high and doesn't reflect you're actual skill. So you should keep playing until your CSR and MMR are the same, then if you keep winning after that against equally-matched opponents, you'll see better CSR gains. If you're an Onyx and you beat Diamonds, your MMR won't go up but neither will your CSR. But if you are Onyx and you beat Champs, your MMR will go up, and even if your CSR doesn't because it's still too high, the values will be brought closer so it will take less time for you to get to a point when you earn more CSR for a win.

If you just want progression, that's what SR is for. Shoot for 152; that system doesn't care about who you play against. But if you want to know where you compare skill-wise to the rest of the players, shouldn't that rating be as accurate as possible, even if it means you aren't as good as it may have previously said you were?
Chimera30 wrote:
Corxpt wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
Players not going up but going down in CSR have inflated CSRs, meaning their CSRs are not accurate representations of their skills. So if they don't want to get on, it means they'd rather keep their fake skill over their true skill, because it makes them seem better than they are to everyone else. So what you're saying is that people care more about how other players think of them than actually playing the game itself.

Give people a system where everyone can get the rank they want and they complain it's meaningless. Give them a system that shows their true skill and they complain because they hate to be told they're not as good as they'd hoped they are. It's a lose-lose scenario.
Well, what about all of the other players who are high-level players and their ranks actually do accurately represent their skills but now with this new system we can't even play because of the one csr gain after every win? I literally ran into two High Onyx and Champ teams last night and we all agreed on one thing. There's no point in grinding the game right now because we gain nothing out of it. Currently, I am an Onyx 1828 in Slayer and I can't even grind for champ anymore because the new system believes I am not a good enough player to hold the rank... If I am beating some of the top guys in the playlists, and your system apparently thinks that their ranks don't accurately represent them either who am I suppose to beat to prove that my rank is accurate? This new system is only hurting the population even more.
If you're a high-tier player and only gaining 1 CSR per win, it could means one of two things:
  1. Your CSR isn't actually an accurate reflection of your skill after all.
  2. You won a match against weaker enemies, so since you were expected to win you didn't really show that you increased in skill.
Again, the change rolled out only affects people with inflated CSRs, so if you're affected, it means your CSR is too high. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but ask yourself what you want from a ranking system: something that accurately represents your skill, or something that just makes you look good to other people?

You say you consistently beat the top people in the playlist, but if they also have inflated CSR then they aren't really the top players. And if they do happen to be the top players, then what would happen behind the scenes is that your MMR will go up every time you win, even if your CSR doesn't. So when you MMR catches up, you'll start gaining more CSR again if you keep winning.
I don't believe I said I consistently beat any kind of player or skill level? Did I say that somewhere? I added an edit to my last reply you may have not seen. Can you read the last part and maybe give your 2 cents on it?

And yea, of course we want our skill represented properly. It's how it's being done that's the issue.
I'm showing your skill to be around mid or low Diamond. So you will lose more than you gain until your CSR is around 1250-1350 area. Diamond 3 or 4 maybe? Depending on if you play with a party a lot.

Basically, there was a bug that let a lot of people get inflated CSRs, even up to the top of Champ. The current update undoes the bug and also creates a slow self-healing effect across all the ranks. Anyone inflated will float down (unless they can maintain a 94%+ win%) and anyone underestimated will rise up.

It may not fully heal by the end of the season, but next season will be fine.
Chimera30 wrote:
As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
Players not going up but going down in CSR have inflated CSRs, meaning their CSRs are not accurate representations of their skills. So if they don't want to get on, it means they'd rather keep their fake skill over their true skill, because it makes them seem better than they are to everyone else. So what you're saying is that people care more about how other players think of them than actually playing the game itself.

Give people a system where everyone can get the rank they want and they complain it's meaningless. Give them a system that shows their true skill and they complain because they hate to be told they're not as good as they'd hoped they are. It's a lose-lose scenario.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is progressing up vs progressing down. Would you enjoy amy any system where you can win 10 matches in a row and lose 1 and lose what almost feels like double in 1 match than you gained in 10? Players mainly want a sense of progression. Otherwise they don't see it worth the time playing. Look at what everyone's saying. They're pointing out progress despite it looking like all they care about is staying at a high rank. What do the new threads popping up keep saying?

Going down a whole lot, but almost non existent up.

Editing this in - Do you think players might better appreciate a reset with the new placements reflecting their true skill vs leaving it as is right now?
It's a ranking system, not a progression system. If you aren't getting better at the game, your rank shouldn't increase just because you're playing. If you aren't increasing, your skill likely isn't increasing and you don't deserve to move up in rank just because you're playing. You're conflating ranking with progression.
I know we aren't progressing if our csr is inflated. So you think it's best to just leave it as it is? Are more players getting on or are more players getting off? Did you read the last part I edited in about a reset with new changes vs just having the changes implemented after the csr inflation existed?(during active season)
<p></p>
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
Hey Josh,

I was just wondering if TrueSkill2 predicts match score differentials given that it already predicts win percentage and K/D ratios for the individual players and if so does it factor MMR adjustments based on whether or not teams managed to finish within certain ranges of the predicted score differential? I think you've mentioned previously that it does not. In fact, I think you've said that the system only factors whether or not a team won or loss and that the score differential didn't matter because it can be a somewhat unreliable metric, but since the system also looks at individual performances it's able to make any additional +/- skill adjustments based off that particular metric instead. Is this understanding correct?
Yeah, we checked score differentials and found they don't add anything to accuracy. If we removed wins and used them instead they would.
Chimera30 wrote:
Corxpt wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
As it is right now, we see csr inflation. Instead of grinding upwards in rank, we are seeing players going downwards. What you believe to remedy the inflation (even though it is) ends up discouraging players from even getting on halo altogether.
Players not going up but going down in CSR have inflated CSRs, meaning their CSRs are not accurate representations of their skills. So if they don't want to get on, it means they'd rather keep their fake skill over their true skill, because it makes them seem better than they are to everyone else. So what you're saying is that people care more about how other players think of them than actually playing the game itself.

Give people a system where everyone can get the rank they want and they complain it's meaningless. Give them a system that shows their true skill and they complain because they hate to be told they're not as good as they'd hoped they are. It's a lose-lose scenario.
Well, what about all of the other players who are high-level players and their ranks actually do accurately represent their skills but now with this new system we can't even play because of the one csr gain after every win? I literally ran into two High Onyx and Champ teams last night and we all agreed on one thing. There's no point in grinding the game right now because we gain nothing out of it. Currently, I am an Onyx 1828 in Slayer and I can't even grind for champ anymore because the new system believes I am not a good enough player to hold the rank... If I am beating some of the top guys in the playlists, and your system apparently thinks that their ranks don't accurately represent them either who am I suppose to beat to prove that my rank is accurate? This new system is only hurting the population even more.
If you're a high-tier player and only gaining 1 CSR per win, it could means one of two things:
  1. Your CSR isn't actually an accurate reflection of your skill after all.
  2. You won a match against weaker enemies, so since you were expected to win you didn't really show that you increased in skill.
Again, the change rolled out only affects people with inflated CSRs, so if you're affected, it means your CSR is too high. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but ask yourself what you want from a ranking system: something that accurately represents your skill, or something that just makes you look good to other people?

You say you consistently beat the top people in the playlist, but if they also have inflated CSR then they aren't really the top players. And if they do happen to be the top players, then what would happen behind the scenes is that your MMR will go up every time you win, even if your CSR doesn't. So when you MMR catches up, you'll start gaining more CSR again if you keep winning.
I don't believe I said I consistently beat any kind of player or skill level? Did I say that somewhere? I added an edit to my last reply you may have not seen. Can you read the last part and maybe give your 2 cents on it?

And yea, of course we want our skill represented properly. It's how it's being done that's the issue.
That reply wasn't to you but to someone else.

"How it's being done" now is that skill is being more accurately measured than eve before, but since public rank and true skill aren't necessarily the same for some people, a change was rolled out to make them the same. Why didn't 343i just end the current season and start a new one? Who knows. I'm sure they considered that option when figuring out how to address the issue. If they didn't reset the season then I'm sure it's because the cons outweighed the pros.
Okay, now I have to ask... what is my MMR in Slayer?
Plat 6 alone, though you could push to Diamond with a decent party.
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