Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – May 7

OP ZaedynFel

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eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
You are also Onyx, which means the matchmaker can match you against the full range of the top skilled players in the game. This is the life of Onyx players.
So once I cross that skill line into Onyx (CSR) I'm open to match any Onyx level player? All the way up to Champ? Hell, I'm right on that border in the most populated playlist (Team Slayer) which indicates to me that I very well could be Onyx in that playlist soon and likely will be in several of the lesser populated playlists. I'm definitely not looking forward to games against amateur pro and actual pro players because I clearly know where I stand in comparison to them (I suck). Since you updated and fine tuned the previous matchmaker settings/restrictions in 2017 I've been bouncing around between Gold - Platinum under the previous TrueSkill system and I realize that system has no bearing on my current more accurate rating, but I took comfort knowing that the matchmaker wouldn't allow the upper level players (amateur pros and actual pros within the Onyx/Champ level) to match-make down to my level unless I was in a Social match and the overall team balance gave my team a somewhat equally talented player or players to compensate. Have the matchmaking settings/restrictions been re-tuned with TrueSkill2 to reflect a similar restriction as before? Onyx is suppose to be 10% of the population, right? If so, shouldn't that prevent a majority of the people who were legit Upper Gold and lower-mid Platinum level players previously from reaching the Onyx level within TrueSkill2 because the majority of legit Upper Platinum and all Diamond players from that previous system should be filling out that 8% increase in population well before someone like myself could reach it? While I'm flattered that the system is telling me I'm almost Onyx in relation to all the players who have ever played the playlist it just doesn't seem right if the Onyx level is restricted to 10% of the population who have ever played that playlist. I just can't fathom how my, in all honesty, "Average" skill level would be seen as being in the top 10% for the lifetime of the Team Slayer playlist.
I play against champs regularly in swat between onyx 1500 and 1600. And you are correct, it's not fun.
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
--edit--
I am also trying to understand why the matchmaker cannot just shuffle teams around when it predicts a landslide victory. If it's predicting a 50-30 game, surely teams could have solo players swapped around to make a 50-40 or better predicted outcome.
It won't shuffle a pre-made party, and and it also won't move players after a quit. Most imbalances happen because of early quits though, not parties.

But you're higher than the top 1% where the matchmaker ends up capping your skill. At a certain skill level, it ignores all other skill gaps above it and treats everyone as equal. So the matchmaker sees everything as fine, but the skill system knows better.

This is necessary to ensure matchmaking can happen in a timely manner. It can make life roughter for some Onyx players, but that's Onyx life yo.
Diamond 2 is higher than top 1%? I'm not onyx and never have been in slayer. And only one out of the 10 games had a quitter.
Sorry, looked at the wrong results after seeing so many today. So your experience is even less common then. Then again, you've only played 10 Slayer matches. 3-7 is a pretty common record even in just coinflips. You'll have to play a lot more matches to see if there's any real bias.

I'm seeing 50/50 at your skill level an average, and tight matches.
Guess I'll give it another go. It felt really frustrating to have consistently worse matches in slayer at diamond than I was getting at onyx in swat. I expect all sorts of silliness in swat because I'm onyx - it's not fun to play against champs but I expect it and understand why it happens. I *don't* expect to have games be consistently awful (win or lose) at diamond in slayer.
Well, there's another thing that's important to understand when comparing SWAT to Slayer.

The same skill gap in SWAT means a lot less than it does in Slayer.

Champ vs. Onyx in SWAT is not as big of a difference in SWAT as it is in Slayer because, frankly, SWAT is a lot less skill-based.
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
--edit--
I am also trying to understand why the matchmaker cannot just shuffle teams around when it predicts a landslide victory. If it's predicting a 50-30 game, surely teams could have solo players swapped around to make a 50-40 or better predicted outcome.
It won't shuffle a pre-made party, and and it also won't move players after a quit. Most imbalances happen because of early quits though, not parties.

But you're higher than the top 1% where the matchmaker ends up capping your skill. At a certain skill level, it ignores all other skill gaps above it and treats everyone as equal. So the matchmaker sees everything as fine, but the skill system knows better.

This is necessary to ensure matchmaking can happen in a timely manner. It can make life roughter for some Onyx players, but that's Onyx life yo.
Diamond 2 is higher than top 1%? I'm not onyx and never have been in slayer. And only one out of the 10 games had a quitter.
Sorry, looked at the wrong results after seeing so many today. So your experience is even less common then. Then again, you've only played 10 Slayer matches. 3-7 is a pretty common record even in just coinflips. You'll have to play a lot more matches to see if there's any real bias.

I'm seeing 50/50 at your skill level an average, and tight matches.
Guess I'll give it another go. It felt really frustrating to have consistently worse matches in slayer at diamond than I was getting at onyx in swat. I expect all sorts of silliness in swat because I'm onyx - it's not fun to play against champs but I expect it and understand why it happens. I *don't* expect to have games be consistently awful (win or lose) at diamond in slayer.
Well, there's another thing that's important to understand when comparing SWAT to Slayer.

The same skill gap in SWAT means a lot less than it does in Slayer.

Champ vs. Onyx in SWAT is not as big of a difference in SWAT as it is in Slayer because, frankly, SWAT is a lot less skill-based.
I know. The fact slayer is more skill based is why 10 game sets averaging 50-30 shouldn't happen with a good matchmaker and healthy population.
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
You are also Onyx, which means the matchmaker can match you against the full range of the top skilled players in the game. This is the life of Onyx players.
So once I cross that skill line into Onyx (CSR/MMR) I'm open to match any Onyx level player? All the way up to Champ? Hell, I'm right on that border in the most populated playlist (Team Slayer) which indicates to me that it has perceived me as playing at an Onyx MMR level occasionally and I very well could reach an Onyx CSR in that playlist fairly soon and likely will be one in several of the lesser populated playlists. I'm definitely not looking forward to games against amateur pro and actual pro players because I clearly know where I stand in comparison to them (I suck). Since you updated and fine tuned the previous matchmaker settings/restrictions in 2017, and continuously did so throughout 2017-18 I've been bouncing around between Gold - Platinum under the previous TrueSkill system and I realize that system has no bearing on my current more accurate rating, but I took comfort knowing that the matchmaker wouldn't allow the upper level players (amateur pros and actual pros within the Onyx/Champ level) to match-make down to my level unless I was in a Social match and the overall team balance gave my team a somewhat equally talented player or players to compensate.

Have the matchmaking settings/restrictions been re-tuned with TrueSkill2 in mind along with the 8% increase to the Onyx group to reflect a similar restriction as before? Onyx is now suppose to be 10% of the population instead of 2%, right? If so, shouldn't that prevent a majority of the people who were legit upper Gold and lower-mid Platinum level players previously (under the old and less accurate TS system) from reaching the Onyx level within the more accurate TrueSkill2 system because the majority of legit upper Platinum and all Diamond players from that previous system should, in all likelihood, be filling out that 8% increase in population well before someone like myself could reach it? While I'm flattered that the system is telling me I'm almost Onyx in relation to all the players who have ever played the playlist it just doesn't seem right if the Onyx level is restricted to 10% of the population who have ever played that playlist. I just can't fathom how my, in all honesty, "Average" skill level would be seen as being in the top 10% for the lifetime of the Team Slayer playlist. I expected an inflated ranking because of all the players who originally bought Halo 5 at release and quickly moved on when they couldn't get good or just didn't like the game-play, but I didn't think I'd be inflated into the top 10%. I actually thought I'd see myself at that Platinum/Diamond border, but then I noticed some of the people I play with at the mid-upper Diamond rankings and thought gezz I wonder if I'll be at that rank too or higher. Now, I'm worried about bad gaming experiences becoming a norm if I reach Onyx.
I'm seeing the top 9% of Slayer in Onyx right now.

The matchmaker is tuned this way:
1) Team to Team gaps are restricted to 60/40 odds.
2) Skill is capped on both ends based on the peak ticket rate. It's capped in a way that ensures that there will always be at least 8 players at that skill or higher within a 5 minute period.

Team to team gaps can exceed 60/40 near the skill cap.

Slayer's cap is currently at the 1% level, which is around 2.6 in MMR, which should translate to 1680 Onyx. Anyone above that skill level is considered also 2.6, and that's probably about 1% of the total Slayer population.

Fortunately, since the distribution is normal, it's much easier to find players worse than you than better than you, so matches where a player near the 2.6 line plays vs. players above it are going to be the exception and not the rule.
Oh, one more thing to add. It caps skill as described, and then allows matches within a certain gap from that skill.

The width of that gap is determined by the population at trough.

So it starts at the cap (peak) and expands to the trough.

For Slayer, yes, this means it starts at 2.6 and expands to near the bottom of Onyx, which is about 5% of players.

So 5% of players really deserve Onyx right now, although 9% are actually in Onyx because of CSR inefficiencies compared to MMR.
The reason I'm writing this is that I feel like there is something wrong with how easily you get matched against a full party in HCS, while soloing yourself. I will admit though, TS2 sometimes finds good matches with the help of the matchmaker for 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 vs 4 situations. I can say that I've won more randoms vs full party games this season in percentage terms when compared to the last season. But the problem is how often and how easily you can match against full parties.

Quote from 'MAY PLAYLIST UPDATES' community update:
"While this means that a full party made up of top players might have to wait for another full party of top players, it should make life significantly more comfortable for high-skilled solo players."

I have deny this with all of my experience so far. Full parties of great HCS players (Onyx-Champion) don't seem to wait at all, since as soon as it finds 4 randoms that are somewhat close to the skill of the party, it matches them together. It doesn't even try to match skilled full parties with other skilled full parties. I'm sorry for swearing but 30-45 -Yoinking!- seconds of matchmaking, and I'm already matched against the same party of four every game, that pounds me game after game. We play together, the game ends, the party and me start searching for a new game, and boom, 30-45 seconds max, and I'm put against them again with 3 randoms most often. Rarely TS2 finds me good enough teammates that we can win that party of four. But it's like 25 % of times honestly. I'm grinding HCS regardless of this. I wouldn't have anything against being matched against full parties if the system worked like it promised to. 75 % of times I get matched against a full party, I'm literally given teammates (2/4 most often) that do not belong in that match up. I mostly always go positive, even against a full party, yet my teammates find themselves with negative KDA's.

Example games for Tommi theKrogan: 12345
Check more if you want a bigger picture.

And I'll spare you the words, yes, I quickly cherry-picked those games. But the point is, there's no "50/50 change of winning" in those games, which was said to happen significantly more often with TS2. And when you want to argue that "your win percentage is 52 % in HCS, the system tries to even this out by making you lose or win if need be", I got two things for you:

1)
Why won't the system balance out the win percentages of the people in that party of four then as well? Why are they allowed to go even up to 60-70 win percentages, and keep getting matches that are in their favor? When I get lucky with one game from my previously stated 25 % of matches against parties that my team can actually win, and I end up winning it against this full party, next I'm given at least two or three forced losses against this same party. So I win one, and lose two, and they lose one and win two. See the math? That's why their win percentages keeps increasing and mine keeps decreasing. I'm currently steadily losing two games and winning one, it doesn't show in my win percentage yet, but it is because I got a big spree of wins for playing with another good player. What my problem here is: these full parties are feeded with wins and never forced close to that 50 win percentage like everyone else are. Either the system still cannot properly estimate the skill of a team of four communicating and playing together, or it actually can, but the matchmaker isn't set to have patience for more than 30-45 seconds of waiting, and then it matches 4 randoms with a team of four. I am sad, I thought there was going to be real change when I read about TS2, and I thought I would match against full parties less. I'm actually matching against them more this season, and while some games are truly even, most aren't. This was all done because the population isn't big enough? I get that, but then it was a mistake to write like high skilled full parties would have to wait around for another one to match against, because they really don't have to do that.

2) Tommi theLeader, which is my my secondary account (win percentage of 45 in HCS, and CSR rank has been dwindling between Diamond 2 and Onyx 1768 between this and the previous season). So, it's me playing with both accounts, one has stayed on Onyx for the last two seasons. One was still Onyx before the last couple of weeks of previous season, until it started to rapidly drop in CSR rank, all the way to Diamond 2 this season, which has been the lowest point. And the big drop in CSR was also seen in win percentage, which was 46 for Tommi theLeader at the end of the season. I have a theory for what caused this though. I sometimes try different things out with this account and might not always give the games my 100 %. I was doing this when I was close to dropping to Diamond. And then I did drop there. And afterwards it has been a weird ride, but I have stayed in Diamond. I get matched against full parties of Onyxes, or just random Onyxes, and my team consists of 4 diamonds. And this happens quite often. So the theory is, that even if your MMR yells Onyx, but your CSR says Diamond, it will for some reason give you teammates with similar CSR. They might have similar MMR as well, but most often it feels like they are truly Diamond all around, yet we are matching Onyxes. I can play against those Onyxes, but those Diamond teammates of mine cannot. Which leads to me with a positive KDA, and my teammates with negative ones, and us losing the games.

Example games for Tommi theLeader: 123456
Check more if you want a bigger picture.

Again, quickly cherry-picked games, but you should see the unfairness there. There's no 50/50 chance of winning, and the system is just feeding victories for squads that are playing against randoms. Let me tell you something about the games I win with this account as well. They are forced wins. Most of those wins, I could play so bad and I'd still win. I'm not whining here because I can't stand getting beat over and over again by full teams. I'm whining here, because 60 or 70 % of my games with this account are forced towards winning or losing. IT'S NOT FUN YOU KNOW. I want to play, I want to get challenged and sometimes triumph and sometimes fail. When I lose, it's forced. When I win, it's because I've lost too many games in a row and the system forces a win for me. I don't even enjoy those forced win games. The games that are even have gotten so few that the whole experience of playing HCS with this account has gotten stale.

So what is going on? Why are full parties still matching solo players in record breaking times, and why are these full parties not forced to 50 win percentage like the rest of us are? Because the population doesn't allow for 4 good enough players to be found quick enough to combat this full team? => It was said that full parties would have to wait, so that it would make the life of solo players easier. Instead, it's quite the opposite. I would be willing to wait 2-3 mins for each match, if I don't get matched against a full team unless it's certainly fair. There are so many solo players searching to match against me, yet I've seen two full parties with similar skill levels matching at the same time, but it chooses to match both of these parties against randoms. Why on earth? Please, there needs to be something done to tighten up the restrictions of parties matching solo players so easily, while having the party as the winner largely most of the times. TS2 fails with this.
Absolutely love this new ranking system! I honestly feel that I’ve been placed into the correct spot so far while ranking. An example of this is my friends and I play together constantly but there is a skill gap between us, this season although some of us placed a lot higher and others lower everyone of us are so happy about where we are. Instead of sitting at Platinum 3-5 and having to grind for ages to no avail to reach my true rank I’ve instantly placed ONYX. My hat goes off to this incredible feat in matchmaking for H5. Truly incredible work. Hyped!
Still think the true skill to needs Improvement at least in warzone I have noticed that players are near equivalent to what I consider my skill level but I spent two and a half hours yesterday losing before I ever won one game a lot of those were just pretty much my team was completely out skilled.
Hi I like the new ranking system, I feel like my matches are more competitive. I play ranked Slayer and Free for all. Also I feel like I am not playing with players that are way worse than me as much, which I like. I don't like having the one bad player who brings the team's chances of winning way down. I am not really a good player- no Onyx issues for me !:)

But I did want to ask if there is some inflation going on- in the old ranking system my rank would hover around high Silver. Now I am Plat 3-4. And am holding my own against Plat players since I was placed. Was my ranking last season of Silver incorrect? or am I getting better? Or is everyone just ranking out a bit higher under TS2 because of across the board inflation? Are the rankings diluted this season?

Also btw I love doubles but there are more quitters in doubles and that kills your chances for a win when your teammate quits. maybe you can focus more on quitters in doubles

Thanks
But I did want to ask if there is some inflation going on- in the old ranking system my rank would hover around high Silver. Now I am Plat 3-4. And am holding my own against Plat players since I was placed. Was my ranking last season of Silver incorrect? or am I getting better? Or is everyone just ranking out a bit higher under TS2 because of across the board inflation? Are the rankings diluted this season?
See Josh's response HERE
I just want to know what the system says exactly for this. I'm finding it extremely unlikely that it thinks we should've won as much as it thinks. This just further annoys me about ranked matchmaking. If you place high, there's no point in playing after the fact.
Link to Game
I just want to know what the system says exactly for this. I'm finding it extremely unlikely that it thinks we should've won as much as it thinks. This just further annoys me about ranked matchmaking. If you place high, there's no point in playing after the fact.
Link to Game
What I find bazaar about that game is you got 13 kills and those were head shots your accuracy was 51%. Which would make sense. You played well.. But on the other team there top guy got 21 kills and those also were headshots.. But his accuracy was only 28%.. To me that guy should not have had nowhere near the headshots with that poor of accuracy... Makes no sense to me.. Unless I'm totally missing something but your accuracy seems correct but that other player doesn't at all.. I know this doesnt answer your question but you have to admit that it very strange.. I just wanted to point that out..
ZaedynFel wrote:
Vluniverse wrote:
This in my opinion broke the social playlist... Now I'm matching people with higher MMR and getting absolutely stomped... In a social playlist, it supossed that those gamemodes are separated to have fun and chill out for a while... Not to get stressed and try hard on something everyone enjoyed
If you were a good player, you will lose more now, yes, but only because you are going from winning 60% down to 50%.

Meanwhile, the bottom players are going from 30% up to 50%.

We can't give you fun and chill games without giving someone else tryhard games or games they just get stomped in.

In order to be fair to the bottom, we have to be fair to the top.
Then you'll have to clarafy me this...
In my stats it marks more than 40 days of playtime those were I wasn't an employed which means I played around 5-8 hours straight
But now I'm lucky if I play 2 to 3 hours (Or not, cause you know, life itself, lul)
This type of games are all about practice... And its what I wanted to bring up in my previous post:
My habillities aren't the same as before I got my job, my brain could need again those 40 days of playtime to recover, but for now the system thinks that I will perform as maybe 10 months ago, but no, everytime I jump into matchmaking it feels new to me, and the other thing is, I'm not planning in recover my skill, that's why I loved just when I got to a match where literally I just ran around the map doing nonsenses.
It's not a rant or a complain, cause yeah, you could say "Git gud again, we can't stop updates for you"... But maybe you should expand the field for those players who haven't touched the game in months and now that they're coming back the game has to make sure to tell them that has open arms for a good hug.
And no, using my second account it's not going to help my problem, there's a reason why I like to use my main account with my GT, lul

Hope this makes sense, and if its something that actually is a thing, please let me know.
this is info i really like the new matching series
QX wrote:
Vluniverse wrote:
This in my opinion broke the social playlist... Now I'm matching people with higher MMR and getting absolutely stomped... In a social playlist, it supossed that those gamemodes are separated to have fun and chill out for a while... Not to get stressed and try hard on something everyone enjoyed
After looking at your arena stats it seems like you are a slightly above average player. Therefore there are going to be a decent amount of people who are better than you searching social. Social is just meant as a chill place, however for the players better than you chilling could be at the same level as you full out sweating and trying. Social isn't for trying super hard but it also isn't free wins. Think of the games you do well and how you barely trying could be equivalent to a gold or silver player really trying hard and still getting stomped. Its the same as your situation just more common since more people are better than them. If anything this system is now better at understanding your actual skill and trying to match within the social boundaries, which are pretty wide skill wise.
Believe me, I know, there will be someone above you, in everything and everywhere.
Went from 6-8 hours to play nowadays 2-3 hours my skill is not going to be as used to.
I spent my play time running around the map, baggin at AFK players until I get killed, adjust my settings... That's fun, its not when you match a full party pushing spawns or doing callouts on Super Fiesta (WTF!)
I agree in equilibrate things now, but not everyone can play the same amount as game launched and we have the same right to have fun and relaxing matches.
I just want to know what the system says exactly for this. I'm finding it extremely unlikely that it thinks we should've won as much as it thinks. This just further annoys me about ranked matchmaking. If you place high, there's no point in playing after the fact.
Link to Game
What I find bazaar about that game is you got 13 kills and those were head shots your accuracy was 51%. Which would make sense. You played well.. But on the other team there top guy got 21 kills and those also were headshots.. But his accuracy was only 28%.. To me that guy should not have had nowhere near the headshots with that poor of accuracy... Makes no sense to me.. Unless I'm totally missing something but your accuracy seems correct but that other player doesn't at all.. I know this doesnt answer your question but you have to admit that it very strange.. I just wanted to point that out..
You can spray and pray bodies to get assists and hit the head for the kill shot. They aren't really related.
Hi I like the new ranking system, I feel like my matches are more competitive. I play ranked Slayer and Free for all. Also I feel like I am not playing with players that are way worse than me as much, which I like. I don't like having the one bad player who brings the team's chances of winning way down. I am not really a good player- no Onyx issues for me !:)

But I did want to ask if there is some inflation going on- in the old ranking system my rank would hover around high Silver. Now I am Plat 3-4. And am holding my own against Plat players since I was placed. Was my ranking last season of Silver incorrect? or am I getting better? Or is everyone just ranking out a bit higher under TS2 because of across the board inflation? Are the rankings diluted this season?

Also btw I love doubles but there are more quitters in doubles and that kills your chances for a win when your teammate quits. maybe you can focus more on quitters in doubles

Thanks
I read this response from Josh but still don't quite understand. Does this mean I am getting that much better vs my lifetime of play on this Slayer playlist ? to go from Silver to Plat? are any players seeing their ranks drop? Or is everyone seeing ranks go up in TS2? are there still Silver or Bronze players out there? I haven't seen any so far in this season after a week of play. thx

In the old method, if you got better over time, but everyone else did, then your rank wouldn't go up even though you were getting better. It may even go down if you get better slower.In the new method, if you get better, your Rank will go up. Though, at the same time, it's no longer an indication of your percentile compared to recent skill. It's lifetime of the list, weighted by playtime in the list. So weighted against who plays it most, etc.
You are near the skill cap, so you can end up matching parties above the skill cap.

That said, when I look back on your last 57 matches, you only match a full party 8 times. You also lose all 8 times, though you kill as expected.

You play with a party of 3 in the match 12 times, sometimes on your own team. You have won 75% of those.

You are 45% solo against parties of 2.

You are 75% when there are only solo players in matches.

You are overall 53% over your last 57 games, and very few of those were against to4.
Hi I like the new ranking system, I feel like my matches are more competitive. I play ranked Slayer and Free for all. Also I feel like I am not playing with players that are way worse than me as much, which I like. I don't like having the one bad player who brings the team's chances of winning way down. I am not really a good player- no Onyx issues for me !:)

But I did want to ask if there is some inflation going on- in the old ranking system my rank would hover around high Silver. Now I am Plat 3-4. And am holding my own against Plat players since I was placed. Was my ranking last season of Silver incorrect? or am I getting better? Or is everyone just ranking out a bit higher under TS2 because of across the board inflation? Are the rankings diluted this season?

Also btw I love doubles but there are more quitters in doubles and that kills your chances for a win when your teammate quits. maybe you can focus more on quitters in doubles

Thanks
I explain this in the original post.
I just want to know what the system says exactly for this. I'm finding it extremely unlikely that it thinks we should've won as much as it thinks. This just further annoys me about ranked matchmaking. If you place high, there's no point in playing after the fact.
Link to Game
It thought you would win that match. Looks like a classic case of over / under performance on their / your team.

And this is also SWAT where the high randomness makes the skill gaps less meaningful.
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