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[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – November 21

OP ZaedynFel

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Sorry for the late post this week. I don’t have any major updates, just some minor ones. We’re busy with the HWC playlist right now. It’s also a short work week in the US.

Minor updates:
  • We’ve allowed Champ and Onyx players to match down into mid-Plat in the HCS list to reduce matchmaking wait times during the testing period.
  • We have a target to add Slayer to the HCS list by the end of next week. It will be a mix of Slayer and Oddball, with higher weighting on the Slayer maps since those will be the focus during the next testing pass.
  • For those who are curious, we have collected our first round of Pro player feedback. This round targeted the previous settings and not the current Oddball list. We'll use it to inform updates to the previous game modes. We'll be soliciting feedback about Oddball today and collecting that in about a week, but that feedback won't get applied till we make our next pass at Oddball after the other modes finish their first pass.
For those of you who celebrate it, have a great Thanksgiving!
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
Thanks for the update. to clearify, once Slayer is added to the HCS test playlist, the slayer games will be weighted heavier on your overall rank. Also the move to allow onyx and champs match mid platinum is good for those players and may deter smurfing, it completely screws the people in mid platinum who are solo or double Queuing trying to reach diamond, only to find they get dominated by full teams of high onyx and champ players. Those are my immediate concerns

As for oddball it would be cool to have a higher base movement speed so you can make plays with the ball instead of grabbing the ball being a death sentence.

Also, if Br starts are going to be a thing, shouldn't the paid team skins have br variants added at no additional cost?

I'll conclude with the Battle Rifle feels inconsistent. maybe something can be done to reduce the spread so it doesn't feel so sluggish/weird. I like the direction the Br is going in bringing it back to its classic halo roots. but the inconsistency of the Br was the worst part about H3.
My guess is they are likely going to have to loosen criteria across the board. The matchmaking ques are still tough. I have lost 42 people on my friends list to other games. This OT update has been rough to say the least. The overall pop seems lower. I have no proof with the exception of queing for a game type 3 times this week which ended in error stating "not enough players to support this gametype" and try a different one. So that is either a new error so we only waste our time once...or it is an old error that has been in existence forever but I had never seen it before because the pops were always fine.

Past 2 years: 3 to 5 Matchmaking errors in this entire span.
Since OT update: I am now up to 43 errors. Keep in mind each error takes about 4 to 6min to present itself. That is 172-258 minutes (2hr 52min - 4hr 18min) completely wasting our time. We have made tweaks the last week like queing with 5 or 6 but it is a sad band aid fix. The "draft" to see who makes the cut is depressing and then we finally que a game with 6 and then realize there is a full 8 squad of sweat on the other side that beats the heck out of us. Not all the time of course but not finding a game with 7 or 8 forcing us to reduce our squad. The other night I solo qued in BTB just to see how that world lives and got a game fairly quickly....against a full 8 Inner Circle squad that beat us badly...but at least I got to shoot weapons instead of watching the search screen.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Minor updates:
  • We’ve allowed Champ and Onyx players to match down into mid-Plat in the HCS list to reduce matchmaking wait times during the testing period.
If I'm ever able to reach Mid-Platinum within this playlist I'll be sure to avoid it until this tweak is changed.

Btw, is this being done because the population within this playlist has plummeted severely and you guys really want feedback from Pro (aka Champ) level players?
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Minor updates:
  • We’ve allowed Champ and Onyx players to match down into mid-Plat in the HCS list to reduce matchmaking wait times during the testing period.
If I'm ever able to reach Mid-Platinum within this playlist I'll be sure to avoid it until this tweak is changed.

Btw, is this being done because the population within this playlist has plummeted severely and you guys really want feedback from Pro (aka Champ) level players?
If you reach mid-plat could ya maybe at least try playing the playlist for a few games and see what ranks you’re matching with? It doesn’t mean you’re going to be matching champs every game, it just means it’s possible to match them. Trust me, The game will obviously not match you with them unless there are no other onyx/champ level players to match with, meaning the onyx/champ players will more than likely be searching well over 3 minutes before The game allows them to match mid-plat.

And even if if you do match them and lose, you’d hardly even notice a drop in your CSR from it.

Just a suggestion. I know it’s not ideal, but i don’t think it’s gonna be an every-game problem here.
lLockout wrote:
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Minor updates:
  • We’ve allowed Champ and Onyx players to match down into mid-Plat in the HCS list to reduce matchmaking wait times during the testing period.
If I'm ever able to reach Mid-Platinum within this playlist I'll be sure to avoid it until this tweak is changed.

Btw, is this being done because the population within this playlist has plummeted severely and you guys really want feedback from Pro (aka Champ) level players?
If you reach mid-plat could ya maybe at least try playing the playlist for a few games and see what ranks you’re matching with? It doesn’t mean you’re going to be matching champs every game, it just means it’s possible to match them. Trust me, The game will obviously not match you with them unless there are no other onyx/champ level players to match with, meaning the onyx/champ players will more than likely be searching well over 3 minutes before The game allows them to match mid-plat.

And even if if you do match them and lose, you’d hardly even notice a drop in your CSR from it.

Just a suggestion. I know it’s not ideal, but i don’t think it’s gonna be an every-game problem here.
Currently, I've been playing the crap out of the awesome Anniversary Throwback playlist because sadly it'll only be around for a temporary period of time, but once it's replaced I'll probably get back to playing the HWC playlist in order to provide 343i with the data they want. However, the first time I end up matching up against an unbalanced Onyx/Champs team where they have a much greater 70:30 odds to win I'll probably move on to a different playlist because it would be a pretty obvious sign that the population has plummeted. I want to provide 343i data, but not at the level of frustration that comes with playing in games where the odds are significantly stacked against me from the match's onset.
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
Thanks for the update. to clearify, once Slayer is added to the HCS test playlist, the slayer games will be weighted heavier on your overall rank. Also the move to allow onyx and champs match mid platinum is good for those players and may deter smurfing, it completely screws the people in mid platinum who are solo or double Queuing trying to reach diamond, only to find they get dominated by full teams of high onyx and champ players. Those are my immediate concerns

As for oddball it would be cool to have a higher base movement speed so you can make plays with the ball instead of grabbing the ball being a death sentence.

Also, if Br starts are going to be a thing, shouldn't the paid team skins have br variants added at no additional cost?

I'll conclude with the Battle Rifle feels inconsistent. maybe something can be done to reduce the spread so it doesn't feel so sluggish/weird. I like the direction the Br is going in bringing it back to its classic halo roots. but the inconsistency of the Br was the worst part about H3.
By weighting I just mean you'll see more Slayer overall than Oddball. This does have an indirect affect on your Rank though, because your CSR is ultimately a sort of "average ability across modes"
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Minor updates:
  • We’ve allowed Champ and Onyx players to match down into mid-Plat in the HCS list to reduce matchmaking wait times during the testing period.
If I'm ever able to reach Mid-Platinum within this playlist I'll be sure to avoid it until this tweak is changed.

Btw, is this being done because the population within this playlist has plummeted severely and you guys really want feedback from Pro (aka Champ) level players?
To be honest, matchmaking at the high end was already borderline before the update. The population hasn't plummeted --- most are still there, but it was already brittle enough that it's going to need this little push probably until we get at least another game mode in. We're working as fast as we can to do that.
lLockout wrote:
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Minor updates:
  • We’ve allowed Champ and Onyx players to match down into mid-Plat in the HCS list to reduce matchmaking wait times during the testing period.
If I'm ever able to reach Mid-Platinum within this playlist I'll be sure to avoid it until this tweak is changed.

Btw, is this being done because the population within this playlist has plummeted severely and you guys really want feedback from Pro (aka Champ) level players?
If you reach mid-plat could ya maybe at least try playing the playlist for a few games and see what ranks you’re matching with? It doesn’t mean you’re going to be matching champs every game, it just means it’s possible to match them. Trust me, The game will obviously not match you with them unless there are no other onyx/champ level players to match with, meaning the onyx/champ players will more than likely be searching well over 3 minutes before The game allows them to match mid-plat.

And even if if you do match them and lose, you’d hardly even notice a drop in your CSR from it.

Just a suggestion. I know it’s not ideal, but i don’t think it’s gonna be an every-game problem here.
Yeah, fortunately Onyx are only 1-2% of the total population and Champ a sliver of that, whereas Plat is 34%, so you will probably see them, but it's not likely.

I think this will more likely be annoying to the lone Onyx players who get Plats stacked on their team vs. Diamonds than it is to the actual Plats. But probably a necessary compromise for now.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Thanks for the update. to clearify, once Slayer is added to the HCS test playlist, the slayer games will be weighted heavier on your overall rank. Also the move to allow onyx and champs match mid platinum is good for those players and may deter smurfing, it completely screws the people in mid platinum who are solo or double Queuing trying to reach diamond, only to find they get dominated by full teams of high onyx and champ players. Those are my immediate concerns

As for oddball it would be cool to have a higher base movement speed so you can make plays with the ball instead of grabbing the ball being a death sentence.

Also, if Br starts are going to be a thing, shouldn't the paid team skins have br variants added at no additional cost?

I'll conclude with the Battle Rifle feels inconsistent. maybe something can be done to reduce the spread so it doesn't feel so sluggish/weird. I like the direction the Br is going in bringing it back to its classic halo roots. but the inconsistency of the Br was the worst part about H3.
By weighting I just mean you'll see more Slayer overall than Oddball. This does have an indirect affect on your Rank though, because your CSR is ultimately a sort of "average ability across modes"
Thank you for the response. I usually place mid platinum in HCS. But, this time around I placed Gold 5 probably because I had some bad games while adjusting to the new settings. Overall I find it uber difficult to get out platinum and into diamond without consistently playing with a full team anyway. Nonetheless I still enjoy playing and will continue for years to come! Thanks for listening to my 2 cents.
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
The magnum is now over-powered? After two years of competitive halo with every pro saying this was the most balanced, skillful weapon in the game and now its overpowered?

If there was no reason to pick up weapons on the map why have pros picked up BR's, Carbines, DMRs and Autos(before they were removed) in HCS competitive play?

Maybe the weapon tuning shouldn't have used the BR/GF Magnum as the baseline for tuning and used the only properly balanced weapon in the game that pro players agree is the most skillful and consistent.

You state you are only putting actual HWC (assume you mean HCS) candidate map/modes into the playlist yet Overgrowth which has been vetted and removed previously is in the rotation.
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
Thank you for updating and changing the game but I don't see why the magnum is over-powered? It's still a skilful weapon to use, it's a 5 shot headshot but the BR is only being parred by the Magnum because that BR is so inconsistent; the direct comparison is the H3 BR. Also, HWC candidate map/modes, are you saying that there could be a new rotation of HWC?
Thank you for the response. I usually place mid platinum in HCS. But, this time around I placed high Gold probably because I had some bad games while adjusting to the new settings. Overall I find it uber difficult to get out platinum and into diamond without consistently playing with a full team anyway. Thanks for listening to my 2 cents.
Don't feel too bad about ranking in low... For the first time ever, I've ranked in a playlist as a Bronze, thanks to HWC Oddball. (When I first started playing Halo 5 MP, I ranked in at Silver and fell to Bronze).

@ZaedynFel, it would be interesting to see the equivalencies of past ranks to where they lie on the rankings now.
Jolly Josh wrote:
You state you are only putting actual HWC (assume you mean HCS) candidate map/modes into the playlist yet Overgrowth which has been vetted and removed previously is in the rotation.
I wasn't here for previous Overgrowth usage, so I can't speak to that. But I know we hadn't tried Overgrowth on the new weapon tuning and on Oddball.

Looking at stats that measure competitiveness (OG is more competitive than at least half our pre-existing maps), blue/red balance (near 50/50), and quit rates (lowest playtest quit rate), Overgrowth is performing very well.

I'm not personally a map guy, so can't speak much to it though. It does seem that outside the verifiable measures we have that look great for Overgrowth, I've only heard subjective feedback.
ZaedynFel wrote:
blue/red balance (near 50/50)
By that, do you mean that Blue wins (nearly enough) as much as Red does? Can you share stats like that for other maps?
Thank you for updating and changing the game but I don't see why the magnum is over-powered? It's still a skilful weapon to use, it's a 5 shot headshot but the BR is only being parred by the Magnum because that BR is so inconsistent; the direct comparison is the H3 BR. Also, HWC candidate map/modes, are you saying that there could be a new rotation of HWC?
If you read the weapon tuning post, you'll see that after the tuning, the Magnum is now better than every other weapon in its class. It's under the new tuning that it's OP.

And, yes, because we have a) a new weapon tuning and b) a new game mode (Oddball), we have to rebuild the list for what's going into HWC. So we'll be adding modes as we update them for the new tuning.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Jolly Josh wrote:
You state you are only putting actual HWC (assume you mean HCS) candidate map/modes into the playlist yet Overgrowth which has been vetted and removed previously is in the rotation.
Looking at stats that measure competitiveness (OG is more competitive than at least half our pre-existing maps), blue/red balance (near 50/50), and quit rates (lowest playtest quit rate), Overgrowth is performing very well.

Do your quit rates take into account players that quit the build before the game starts?
Jolly Josh wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Jolly Josh wrote:
You state you are only putting actual HWC (assume you mean HCS) candidate map/modes into the playlist yet Overgrowth which has been vetted and removed previously is in the rotation.
Looking at stats that measure competitiveness (OG is more competitive than at least half our pre-existing maps), blue/red balance (near 50/50), and quit rates (lowest playtest quit rate), Overgrowth is performing very well.

Do your quit rates take into account players that quit the build before the game starts?
Yes, doesn't make a significant difference at this point though. Will keep an eye on it.
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