Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – November 21

OP ZaedynFel

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Any chance that Team Arena could get HCS Radar to appease those who want to play normal HCS settings?
ZaedynFel wrote:
blue/red balance (near 50/50)
By that, do you mean that Blue wins (nearly enough) as much as Red does? Can you share stats like that for other maps?
The HCS maps are all near 50/50. Nothing is exact, some have a little blue and some a little red, but pretty near 50/50.

They also change a little over time due to just random fluctuations, which we tend to ignore unless they get large.
Jolly Josh wrote:
Any chance that Team Arena could get HCS Radar to appease those who want to play normal HCS settings?
When we're done landing on the HWC set, we'll replace Team Arena with that plus the Ability Tracker radar.
Nobody wants to play these settings hence why you have the whole am and pro community playing CUSTOMS all day with magnum starts you guys are out of your minds for trying to force a trashcan br and nerf gun as a sidearm if you want a great game to die by all means go ahead but open your eyes you cant see that nobody wants this? There was nothing wrong with the magnum you guys just made all the other weapons so inconsistent and garbage that nobody wants to use them stop doing what your doing give us the old settings back every one that usually plays hcs is playing other games or war zone or anything besides that oddball playlist not to mention two years into the game your trying to do this stop go on Twitter look at the outrage everyone going to team arena or custom 8s lobbies it is a joke what you guys are trying to do ive put way too much time into this game perfecting my shot to have you guys try and change everything two years later I wonder why the playlist population is going down....oh wait NOBODY wants it open your eyes 343
Y'all probably dont care since I'm a recruit on these forums but I'm a champion in hcs right now and have been since the game came out I know the am scene I know competitive halo and all the players that actually go to your events and compete do not want this
Small update:

  • Regret and Plaza have been added to the Oddball playlist
You guys must really not look at feedback cause if you did you would realize nobody wanted this from the start and nobody wants it now like do you guys look at twitter do you guys look at the outrage do you guys look at how much the population of this game has gone down from the garbage your trying to force us to play with the last thread feedback was overwhelmingly negative and yet that doesnt tell you guys anything the fact that ams and pros alike are playing 8s lobbies with magnum start that doesnt tell you anything either theres your data
ZaedynFel wrote:
...
Is the matchmaking system working correctly in the HCS Oddball playlist?

Solo focused searching with a matching range of Bronze 1 to Gold 1 or Bronze 2 to Gold 5.

That can’t be right.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Small update:

  • Regret and Plaza have been added to the Oddball playlist
Wasn't Plaza originally suppose to be included? At least that's what was announced within the Raising Xpectations news update that got posted on the 9th. Was there a reason why it was held back until now?

Also, just out of curiosity why wasn't/isn't HWC Oddball also being tested within MMing on Coliseum, Fathom, Molten, Stasis, Torque, Tyrant, and Riptide. That way all preconceived notions on how well every developer Arena map plays with the Oddball game-type could be backed-up or challenged with game-play data.
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
I just....I have never seen a single complaint about the magnum being the primary gun for competitive play. You guys were the ones who made every other precision weapon inconsistent, situational, and unsatisfying to use. Simply because the magnum is a balanced and skill-based weapon does not make it objectively overpowered, it is only more consistent and satisfying RELATIVE to the other precision weapons, which were gutted. Nobody wants to use a primary gun that is unrewarding, inconsistent, and feels clunky (like every other precision weapon after the terrible changes). The problem you are describing is an unnecessary issue that is entirely a problem of your own creation.
Scvds wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
I just....I have never seen a single complaint about the magnum being the primary gun for competitive play. You guys were the ones who made every other precision weapon inconsistent, situational, and unsatisfying to use. Simply because the magnum is a balanced and skill-based weapon does not make it objectively overpowered, it is only more consistent and satisfying RELATIVE to the other precision weapons, which were gutted. Nobody wants to use a primary gun that is unrewarding, inconsistent, and feels clunky (like every other precision weapon after the terrible changes). The problem you are describing is an unnecessary issue that is entirely a problem of your own creation.
Thank you. This is the response echoed througout the community open your eyes 343 the magnum wasnt the problem
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
Wait what? Of course other weapons are still viable... that seems like an extreme overstatement.
This post seems a bit random to me. Can you elaborate?
ZaedynFel wrote:
lLockout wrote:
eLantern wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Minor updates:
  • We’ve allowed Champ and Onyx players to match down into mid-Plat in the HCS list to reduce matchmaking wait times during the testing period.
If I'm ever able to reach Mid-Platinum within this playlist I'll be sure to avoid it until this tweak is changed.

Btw, is this being done because the population within this playlist has plummeted severely and you guys really want feedback from Pro (aka Champ) level players?
If you reach mid-plat could ya maybe at least try playing the playlist for a few games and see what ranks you’re matching with? It doesn’t mean you’re going to be matching champs every game, it just means it’s possible to match them. Trust me, The game will obviously not match you with them unless there are no other onyx/champ level players to match with, meaning the onyx/champ players will more than likely be searching well over 3 minutes before The game allows them to match mid-plat.

And even if if you do match them and lose, you’d hardly even notice a drop in your CSR from it.

Just a suggestion. I know it’s not ideal, but i don’t think it’s gonna be an every-game problem here.
Yeah, fortunately Onyx are only 1-2% of the total population and Champ a sliver of that, whereas Plat is 34%, so you will probably see them, but it's not likely.

I think this will more likely be annoying to the lone Onyx players who get Plats stacked on their team vs. Diamonds than it is to the actual Plats. But probably a necessary compromise for now.
Well wouldn’t such a small population of onyx and champ players be *partially* due to the fact that those who previously ranked low onyx/diamond are now being pushed into the larger pool of golds and plats now, due to CSR adjustments? That’s why i feel like a forced bell curve of rank distribution is a bad thing when dealing with the HCS’s situation - I Feel this way because with the lower half of former onyx and former diamond players seemingly ranking plat and gold, we’re getting mixed in with the average and even some below average players far more often than before. This then leads me to feel like any given game of plat and gold players could be a toss up as to whether the players are gonna be former diamond players or players who have always been gold/plat and far less skilled.

Those former onyx and diamond players would likely rather stay at diamond/onyx and play onyx/champ players on a regular basis than be stuck in the weird middle ground where you’ll have people dropping 30 bombs and others only dealing -500 damage in the same game, do you think? I know I would. I’d much rather play onyx ranked players every game and know what to expect.

Maybe I’m missing something here, but this is how multiple playlists, especially HCS, have felt over the past few months due to seemingly playing as well as I ever have but consistently ranking lower and lower every time the ranks reset.
It doesn't seem right that the only people that dont want the magnum is the developer and everyone buying and playing the game wants it. I really dont understand changing the game so people don't want to play it. Like I said previously if BR starts are here to stay then I won't be playing this game which sucks cause I really did enjoy it until the magnum disappeared.
RyInfinity wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
Wait what? Of course other weapons are still viable... that seems like an extreme overstatement.
This post seems a bit random to me. Can you elaborate?
I suspect that what Zaedynfel describes is most noticeable among high-level players, where Magnum usage pretty much dominates (before and after the tuning update). But after the update, the Magnum now basically occupies the area the pre-update BR used to occupy (good to great at every engagement range, save for the longest). So with that said, since you spawn with a weapon like that, why would anyone feel the need to pick up any other precision weapon?

As far as it "not working" for competitive, I believe that only concerns the product that's put it out during competitions. Everyone running around with Magnums, forgoing most other pickups on the map, isn't exactly the kind of thing a casual viewing audience finds entertaining.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Jolly Josh wrote:
You state you are only putting actual HWC (assume you mean HCS) candidate map/modes into the playlist yet Overgrowth which has been vetted and removed previously is in the rotation.
I wasn't here for previous Overgrowth usage, so I can't speak to that. But I know we hadn't tried Overgrowth on the new weapon tuning and on Oddball.

Looking at stats that measure competitiveness (OG is more competitive than at least half our pre-existing maps), blue/red balance (near 50/50), and quit rates (lowest playtest quit rate), Overgrowth is performing very well.

I'm not personally a map guy, so can't speak much to it though. It does seem that outside the verifiable measures we have that look great for Overgrowth, I've only heard subjective feedback.
What stats do you use to measure competitiveness?

I honestly can't believe that OG would rate highly with proper metrics. At least not if we go by the definition that competitiveness is the measure of how influential skillful execution is on the outcome of a match.

The design of the map (long corridors, T corners, limited cross map sightlines, etc) promotes the constant utilization of the least skillful combat options (grenades + melee) while limiting the opportunity for the most skillful option (precision gunfights)

A 50/50 Red/blue balance isn't a measure of competitiveness, it's a measure of fairness. Fairness should be 50/50 in a competitive map, but it isn't a sign of competitiveness. Flipping a coin yields 50/50 results, but we wouldn't argue that a coin flipping contest is competitive.
RyInfinity wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
Wait what? Of course other weapons are still viable... that seems like an extreme overstatement.
This post seems a bit random to me. Can you elaborate?
I suspect that what Zaedynfel describes is most noticeable among high-level players, where Magnum usage pretty much dominates (before and after the tuning update). But after the update, the Magnum now basically occupies the area the pre-update BR used to occupy (good to great at every engagement range, save for the longest). So with that said, since you spawn with a weapon like that, why would anyone feel the need to pick up any other precision weapon?

As far as it "not working" for competitive, I believe that only concerns the product that's put it out during competitions. Everyone running around with Magnums, forgoing most other pickups on the map, isn't exactly the kind of thing a casual viewing audience finds entertaining.
Well, the casual viewing audience won't have anything to watch of high level players leave for lack of enjoyment.

No one told 343 to nerf other weapons until they are useless against the pistol.
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
So basically the BR is the starting weapon now... If that's a foregone conclusion at this point, i am not a fan. at all.

Please take into account the feedback pertaining to how fun the weapons are to use. The BR is not nearly as fun to duel someone with as the Magnum. The magnum is one of the best designed weapons Halo has ever had. Everything in the sandbox should be balanced around it. When i saw that the magnum was not getting touched in the weapon rebalance, i thought it was because it was being used as the cornerstone around which everything else would be re-balanced. Instead, it looks like somewhere along the line the decision was made to make the BR the new starting weapon and balance everything around that, which i don't understand. I would much rather see another weapon retune, and keeping the magnum as the starting weapon. The main problem with the sandbox before (with precision weapons anyway) wasn't that most guns killed too fast, its that they were too easy. The direction of the re-tune was good, you guys just overshot the landing a bit imo (made them harder to use outside their niche AND made them kill slow, instead of just the former).

I'm happy to see more gametypes being added soon.

Is there a mechanism in place that tightens or loosens matchmaking restrictions dynamically based on playlist population? If not is that something you are looking at implementing at some point in the future?

Disappointed that it looks like the new BR is the starting weapon "for real" now, but thanks for the update nonetheless :)
Spoiler:
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Sure they will. Someone's gonna compete for however much money is on the table, no matter what 343i does.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Jolly Josh wrote:
You state you are only putting actual HWC (assume you mean HCS) candidate map/modes into the playlist yet Overgrowth which has been vetted and removed previously is in the rotation.
I wasn't here for previous Overgrowth usage, so I can't speak to that. But I know we hadn't tried Overgrowth on the new weapon tuning and on Oddball.

Looking at stats that measure competitiveness (OG is more competitive than at least half our pre-existing maps), blue/red balance (near 50/50), and quit rates (lowest playtest quit rate), Overgrowth is performing very well.

I'm not personally a map guy, so can't speak much to it though. It does seem that outside the verifiable measures we have that look great for Overgrowth, I've only heard subjective feedback.
What stats do you use to measure competitiveness?

I honestly can't believe that OG would rate highly with proper metrics. At least not if we go by the definition that competitiveness is the measure of how influential skillful execution is on the outcome of a match.

The design of the map (long corridors, T corners, limited cross map sightlines, etc) promotes the constant utilization of the least skillful combat options (grenades + melee) while limiting the opportunity for the most skillful option (precision gunfights)

A 50/50 Red/blue balance isn't a measure of competitiveness, it's a measure of fairness. Fairness should be 50/50 in a competitive map, but it isn't a sign of competitiveness. Flipping a coin yields 50/50 results, but we wouldn't argue that a coin flipping contest is competitive.
This is pretty much what i was going to post. Fairness =/= competitiveness. I would also add to this that while gunskill is basically the only mechanical-skill you can use to separate yourself on that map, even that option is pretty shallow as most gunfight are linear affairs restricted to straight hallways. The areas that aren't straight hallways are just magnets for grenade spam. Covering your teammates basically requires you to be right next to them, so options for smart positioning and movement (the non-mechanical skills) are severely limited as well.

EDIT: Forgot to add this thought - players generally quit not because they hate a particular map exclusively, but because they are getting -Yoink- on. If a map is less competitive, it will be less likely likely for the more skilled team to break away and less likely for losers to quit. I would be curious to know what the average score-delta is between 2 teams when players start quitting and compare the distribution of score delta's from map to map to the quit rates of those maps. I would bet that the wider the distribution of score delta's (regardless of the average), the higher the quit rate.
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