Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – November 21

OP ZaedynFel

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. ...
  8. 7
Better yet, why don't you just undo the weapon tuning and focus on forge maps instead! Wow! Crazy! I know, i'm revolutionary.

In all seriousness, if we have overgrowth, mercy, and br starts, nobody is gonna play. You really need to make it magnum starts again without changing the magnum. Make the BR and dmr better again. Put oddball in place of fathom flag and empire sh and get some forge maps for some new slayers, flags and, strong holds.
Spoiler:
Show
Sure they will. Someone's gonna compete for however much money is on the table, no matter what 343i does.
But the people competing will be displaying less skill, which creates a less interesting product, which leads to less viewership, which leads to less investment, which leads to smaller pots. In any sport, the participants are th biggest asset. If they aren’t a invested, fans wont get a good product.
Scvds wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
I just....I have never seen a single complaint about the magnum being the primary gun for competitive play. You guys were the ones who made every other precision weapon inconsistent, situational, and unsatisfying to use. Simply because the magnum is a balanced and skill-based weapon does not make it objectively overpowered, it is only more consistent and satisfying RELATIVE to the other precision weapons, which were gutted. Nobody wants to use a primary gun that is unrewarding, inconsistent, and feels clunky (like every other precision weapon after the terrible changes). The problem you are describing is an unnecessary issue that is entirely a problem of your own creation.
ZaedynFel It's like you guys don't listen to us at all. You look at data. Bungie had this -Yoink- nearly perfect for what we enjoyed. I get that times change and so does technology.

  • We complained that the pistol had heavy aim like every other weapon in the game compared to the "out of box version" we had and has been touched on since then. That's all we complained about and in some cases still do, but pistol being overpowered was never on anyone's mind. Why do you think the Pro's responded the way they did. Your numbers from machines can't understand what we prefer or don't like(I bet it doesn't take in account the number of people that join a friend after matching someone or a map they didn't like before the map actually loads locking people in from doing so). You can't trust computers to ever get true feedback.
If anything you could've had an in-game survey system built to get instant easy access to players feedback on playlists, gametypes, or even in-game bugs.Some other side notes :p
  • We don't have a "veto system".
  • We don't have true "individual ranks" before game nor distinction between ranks accept numbers you put on someone after the game ends that you have to dive into a players profile to see. It was a tradition to boast your rank to others while sitting in ranked lobbies causing an unspoken respect.
  • Servers are completely donkey cheeks compared to warzone online.
  • MLG "properly organized" tournaments/leagues.
  • Maps created from scratch (not copy pasta'd) would be what we need if anything made with the new radar in mind. You need to take the time to think about why you're looking at these unnecessary things we aren't demanding. Some awesome symytry maps based off the new radar would turn out awesome. *cough... cough... Construct or Narrows would work pretty damn good.*
What stats do you use to measure competitiveness?

[...]the definition that competitiveness is the measure of how influential skillful execution is on the outcome of a match.
That's how we measure it. We see if known higher-skilled teams win more often than random (50/50) and then rank all the maps on that.
Very Nerdy wrote:
Bungie had this -Yoink- nearly perfect for what we enjoyed.
Nope. Bungie produced something pretty amazing and popular for its time with Combat Evolved through to Halo 3 (some may argue to include Halo Reach too), but none of these titles were anywhere near to being "perfect". Claiming the past titles were perfect is quite the subjective opinion and may I say you are clearly looking through some heavy nostalgic glasses my good sir if you really think each one of them were actually perfect.
ZaedynFel wrote:
What stats do you use to measure competitiveness?

[...]the definition that competitiveness is the measure of how influential skillful execution is on the outcome of a match.
That's how we measure it. We see if known higher-skilled teams win more often than random (50/50) and then rank all the maps on that.
How is this working if you didn't even reset ranks starting CSR's from scratch to get true data?

We can't test if it's just being thrown into a pit of unbalanced levels because things aren't what they were ranked for...
eLantern wrote:
Very Nerdy wrote:
Bungie had this -Yoink- nearly perfect for what we enjoyed.
Nope. Bungie produced something pretty amazing and popular for its time with Combat Evolved through to Halo 3 (some may argue to include Halo Reach too), but none of these titles were anywhere near to being "perfect". Claiming the past titles were perfect is quite the subjective opinion and may I say you are clearly looking through some heavy nostalgic glasses my good sir if you really think each one of them were actually perfect.
FOR WHAT WE "ENJOYED" Past tense... If it isn't broke then do not fix it..... Take what works and use it. If it doesn't work then try again. These are basic principals.

The matchmaking system alone is superior to Halo 5's still Currently tense... -_-
ZaedynFel wrote:
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
How exactly is being properly viable "OP"? How does that "not work" for competitive? For the first time in two years, players who spawn with Magnums (the self proclaimed utility of the game) can actually contest and win against any easier to use rifle, and most automatic weapons. Not only that, but people will openly contest stuff like a BR rather than run or thrust away because they can properly contest the user using it, helping the game's pacing issues. That's more proper balance than the game's first two years had and the tuning didn't even impact hilariously easy weapons like the Plasma Rifle, Storm Rifle, or LightRifle which now have their own little ring of dominance in the game, now.

The issue isn't that the Magnum's power makes picking up other weapons "needless", or without reason. It's that these weapons don't need to exist in the first place since they're almost carbon copies of the Magnum. The DMR and LightRifle may as well be a straight upgrade for it, and the BR's just an inconsistent, burst fire incarnation. Rather than eliminating the ONE good, skilltaking weapon in the game, why not eliminate the three other weapons that have no place to be there, and simplify the sandbox? Because this helps no one, and will only impact the game negatively as BR starts in the HWC playlist have shown.

Just look at the HWC playlist. Inconsistent BRs push an over-reliance on teamshot, and the lack of reliability impacts the individual and weakens them by default, stopping the ability for people to make plays and decisions on their own. This will slow your game's pace to a crawl in Slayer undoubtedly, when you go for it, because people can't do anything on their own now due to the BR.

Having a sole, consistent weapon in the form of the Magnum was entirely a successful approach, it just wasn't done properly for two years. And other games are a testament to how it works when done properly. Halo: CE being prime among them. The CE Magnum was consistent, hard to use, but more powerful than everything else in the sandbox, objectively. Yet it didn't render everything else useless. The Plasma Rifle has its stunlock, the AR's good for quick camo and clean ups, etc. Weapon pickups weren't a plenty because you didn't generally need them, and when you did, said weapons performed in properly niche ways, as said before. You just had a proper utility weapon, and were able to use it and maybe some other stuff at certain times to get the job done. Not only that, but said utility was powerful, giving people confidence when they moved around the map, since they know their weapon will work, and is powerful enough to get the job done. That's key to keeping game pace up, too.

And the Magnum in Halo 5 now basically has that role on a slower paced scale. It can contest almost any other weapon properly, is consistent, allows for player movement due to its power in relation to other weapons, has a good range niche, and is the hardest to use of them all. That isn't bad, because it just increases player agency across the board in a generally skillful manner. Not only that, but it can easily allow for a simplification of the sandbox. You don't need the BR, DMR, or LR anymore. Can easily take them out and eliminate three variables from the player's mind in an already complex title. Given most autos were removed from HCS, that just allows for the Magnum to properly reign supreme in what should be a competitive environment. It, and some power ups/power weapons. Which is fine. Generally simple gunplay like that is good.

And that's what baffles me more. Somehow worrying that players are too strong in a competitive environment, over realizing that the forced BR and Gunfighter starts are somehow being tested for a competitive environment when the BR's in one of the least competitive states it could be in, while the Gunfighter's basically a joke. Seriously. Why are we pushing for players to be WEAKER off spawn when that'll always hinder a game and its pace? Not only that, but how the BR is currently basically makes any gunfight a dice roll when it has trouble hitting someone who's moving four feet in front of you. Doesn't even account for how inconsistency literally only impacts higher players negatively and rewards poorer skilled players improperly. It's not fun to have weak or inconsistent weapons, so why're we getting rid of the weapon that can make us strong in this game, and treating strength like it's a bad thing?
Very Nerdy wrote:
eLantern wrote:
Very Nerdy wrote:
Bungie had this -Yoink- nearly perfect for what we enjoyed.
Nope. Bungie produced something pretty amazing and popular for its time with Combat Evolved through to Halo 3 (some may argue to include Halo Reach too), but none of these titles were anywhere near to being "perfect". Claiming the past titles were perfect is quite the subjective opinion and may I say you are clearly looking through some heavy nostalgic glasses my good sir if you really think each one of them were actually perfect.
FOR WHAT WE "ENJOYED" Past tense... If it isn't broke then do not fix it..... Take what works and use it. If it doesn't work then try again. These are basic principals.

The matchmaking system alone is superior to Halo 5's still Currently tense... -_-
That's what developers Bungie and 343i have done or at least attempted to do with the franchise. They believed they were taking what worked prior and blending it with forward progression.

By the way, be careful throwing around the term "we" when you aren't actually speaking on behalf of everybody.
Apoll0 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Please take into account the feedback pertaining to how fun the weapons are to use. The BR is not nearly as fun to duel someone with as the Magnum.
Disagree strongly.
ZaedynFel wrote:
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
How exactly is being properly viable "OP"? How does that "not work" for competitive? For the first time in two years, players who spawn with Magnums (the self proclaimed utility of the game) can actually contest and win against any easier to use rifle, and most automatic weapons. Not only that, but people will openly contest stuff like a BR rather than run or thrust away because they can properly contest the user using it, helping the game's pacing issues. That's more proper balance than the game's first two years had and the tuning didn't even impact hilariously easy weapons like the Plasma Rifle, Storm Rifle, or LightRifle which now have their own little ring of dominance in the game, now.

The issue isn't that the Magnum's power makes picking up other weapons "needless", or without reason. It's that these weapons don't need to exist in the first place since they're almost carbon copies of the Magnum. The DMR and LightRifle may as well be a straight upgrade for it, and the BR's just an inconsistent, burst fire incarnation. Rather than eliminating the ONE good, skilltaking weapon in the game, why not eliminate the three other weapons that have no place to be there, and simplify the sandbox? Because this helps no one, and will only impact the game negatively as BR starts in the HWC playlist have shown.

Just look at the HWC playlist. Inconsistent BRs push an over-reliance on teamshot, and the lack of reliability impacts the individual and weakens them by default, stopping the ability for people to make plays and decisions on their own. This will slow your game's pace to a crawl in Slayer undoubtedly, when you go for it, because people can't do anything on their own now due to the BR.

Having a sole, consistent weapon in the form of the Magnum was entirely a successful approach, it just wasn't done properly for two years. And other games are a testament to how it works when done properly. Halo: CE being prime among them. The CE Magnum was consistent, hard to use, but more powerful than everything else in the sandbox, objectively. Yet it didn't render everything else useless. The Plasma Rifle has its stunlock, the AR's good for quick camo and clean ups, etc. Weapon pickups weren't a plenty because you didn't generally need them, and when you did, said weapons performed in properly niche ways, as said before. You just had a proper utility weapon, and were able to use it and maybe some other stuff at certain times to get the job done. Not only that, but said utility was powerful, giving people confidence when they moved around the map, since they know their weapon will work, and is powerful enough to get the job done. That's key to keeping game pace up, too.

And the Magnum in Halo 5 now basically has that role on a slower paced scale. It can contest almost any other weapon properly, is consistent, allows for player movement due to its power in relation to other weapons, has a good range niche, and is the hardest to use of them all. That isn't bad, because it just increases player agency across the board in a generally skillful manner. Not only that, but it can easily allow for a simplification of the sandbox. You don't need the BR, DMR, or LR anymore. Can easily take them out and eliminate three variables from the player's mind in an already complex title. Given most autos were removed from HCS, that just allows for the Magnum to properly reign supreme in what should be a competitive environment. It, and some power ups/power weapons. Which is fine. Generally simple gunplay like that is good.

And that's what baffles me more. Somehow worrying that players are too strong in a competitive environment, over realizing that the forced BR and Gunfighter starts are somehow being tested for a competitive environment when the BR's in one of the least competitive states it could be in, while the Gunfighter's basically a joke. Seriously. Why are we pushing for players to be WEAKER off spawn when that'll always hinder a game and its pace? Not only that, but how the BR is currently basically makes any gunfight a dice roll when it has trouble hitting someone who's moving four feet in front of you. Doesn't even account for how inconsistency literally only impacts higher players negatively and rewards poorer skilled players improperly. It's not fun to have weak or inconsistent weapons, so why're we getting rid of the weapon that can make us strong in this game, and treating strength like it's a bad thing?
And I thought you only cared about Spartan armor colors. Excellent post. Pretty much all that needs to be said on this topic.
Can someone at 343 please explain why the shot reg in arena is spotty but the warzone servers don’t have the same issue? Is it because the warzone servers have more resources to support the 24 players? If so, your arena servers are underpowered. As someone who has played a lot of wz and arena, there is a big difference between the two. In wz, my shots always count, in arena, it’s a coin flip. Kids EAT in arena.
Josh, was this game some kind of weird timing while searching or did I get put in bronze league? It was the only game I played last night, but every player on the enemy team except for one had an SR rank of 18 or lower and I don't believe they were smurfs.

Link

I won't harp on it since there are already great points about the magnum, but how could you guys not see this coming? When you only test some weapons instead of all of them, it's obvious the weapons that were changed are also going to affect the ones that you didn't test like the magnum, storm rifle and light rifle for example. The magnum is 'OP now' because of 343's own doing.
ZaedynFel wrote:
What stats do you use to measure competitiveness?

[...]the definition that competitiveness is the measure of how influential skillful execution is on the outcome of a match.
That's how we measure it. We see if known higher-skilled teams win more often than random (50/50) and then rank all the maps on that.
But unless a map is unfair, wouldn't more skillful teams always win more than 50% of the time? Even if skillful actions aren't frequently influential, the ability to execute when then are would tip things towards the more skillful team.

How do you measure the influence of skillful actions? I'd be more interested in comparing types of damage dealt (precision, melee, grenade, powerweapons) and seeing which ones are more dominate in the win column. If the map is dominated by use of the easier to execute tactics, I'd say the map is less competitive.

The influence of grenades on Empire Strongholds, for example, is why competitive folks say it isn't a competitive map- because clearing out put with grenades doesnt take skill, yet its a dominant tactic.
eLantern wrote:
Very Nerdy wrote:
eLantern wrote:
Very Nerdy wrote:
Bungie had this -Yoink- nearly perfect for what we enjoyed.
Nope. Bungie produced something pretty amazing and popular for its time with Combat Evolved through to Halo 3 (some may argue to include Halo Reach too), but none of these titles were anywhere near to being "perfect". Claiming the past titles were perfect is quite the subjective opinion and may I say you are clearly looking through some heavy nostalgic glasses my good sir if you really think each one of them were actually perfect.
FOR WHAT WE "ENJOYED" Past tense... If it isn't broke then do not fix it..... Take what works and use it. If it doesn't work then try again. These are basic principals.

The matchmaking system alone is superior to Halo 5's still Currently tense... -_-
That's what developers Bungie and 343i have done or at least attempted to do with the franchise. They believed they were taking what worked prior and blending it with forward progression.

By the way, be careful throwing around the term "we" when you aren't actually speaking on behalf of everybody.
I wasn't speaking on behalf of "everyone" but by "we" I mean the people that agree with me and you proved my point, "Blending" instead of just using what works for Halo.

Look at the bigger picture, please.
Thorulfr wrote:
Apoll0 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Please take into account the feedback pertaining to how fun the weapons are to use. The BR is not nearly as fun to duel someone with as the Magnum.
Disagree strongly.
You think duels with a slow 3 round burst BR (alongside random spread) are better than with a consistent single shot magnum? Speak for yourself, lol.
TryHardFan wrote:
Thorulfr wrote:
Apoll0 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Please take into account the feedback pertaining to how fun the weapons are to use. The BR is not nearly as fun to duel someone with as the Magnum.
Disagree strongly.
You think duels with a slow 3 round burst BR (alongside random spread) are better than with a consistent single shot magnum? Speak for yourself, lol.
Did you see something in the reply that suggested he was speaking for anyone else?
:/
ZaedynFel wrote:
So people who are mid-plat players have an increased chance of matching against champions and Onyx players? It doesn't seem fair on paper, I'm sure you have already thought about that and will be suggesting to people who will complain about this on how to make it a less of a chance. However, this will only make the mid-plat players not wanting to play the HCS list because they have the slightest chance of matching someone/some people who are leagues above their skill level; and with the population count of Halo 5 is depleting, this will only speed up that process (in my opinion anyway).

Also, I am glad you are slowly adding different game-types into the Oddball playlist but I think it should have been Strongholds. As CTF and Slayer seem to be a lot slower due to the nerf and players will eventually get bored of it. Can you maybe put magnum starts back into the HWC Oddball playlist? As currently the new BR isn't consistent and can be often dropped for another weapon; as well as, not bothering with the gunfighter magnum... because it's a weird idea for a secondary (again in my opinion).
I think we'll see an additional tweak on the weapon tuning down the road that will address BR and other weapon feedback, but the magnum is now over-powered and so doesn't work for competitive. There would basically be no reason to have any other weapons on the map, which given our current history we have found to not be a successful approach. We're currently only putting actual HWC candidate map/modes into that playlist.
so can you not, and can you guys actually listen to the players and all the pros who are saying to change it back. Like sure if its better down the road then test it again. however do not keep forcing stuff we clearly do not like down our throats.
Chimera30 wrote:
TryHardFan wrote:
Thorulfr wrote:
Apoll0 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Please take into account the feedback pertaining to how fun the weapons are to use. The BR is not nearly as fun to duel someone with as the Magnum.
Disagree strongly.
You think duels with a slow 3 round burst BR (alongside random spread) are better than with a consistent single shot magnum? Speak for yourself, lol.
Did you see something in the reply that suggested he was speaking for anyone else?
:/
That was unnecessary, I agree. Don’t let that distract from the main point though.
TryHardFan wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
TryHardFan wrote:
Thorulfr wrote:
Apoll0 wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Please take into account the feedback pertaining to how fun the weapons are to use. The BR is not nearly as fun to duel someone with as the Magnum.
Disagree strongly.
You think duels with a slow 3 round burst BR (alongside random spread) are better than with a consistent single shot magnum? Speak for yourself, lol.
Did you see something in the reply that suggested he was speaking for anyone else?
:/
That was unnecessary, I agree. Don’t let that distract from the main point though.
The main point being that different people find different guns more fun to shoot? I wasn't distracted from that point.
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. ...
  8. 7