Forums / Community / Matchmaking Feedback & Discussion

[Locked] Matchmaking Feedback Update – November 27

OP ZaedynFel

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Hey folks, sorry I haven't had a lot of updates on this side lately. Between the holidays and HCS settings work, my schedule has been pretty full with other work.

I do have an update over on the HCS forum for those interested.

For the rest of you, I haven't forgot about social and non-HCS playlist related concerns and they are definitely on my list.

I'll leave this post here for you to continue the discussions we've been having.

If you have HCS-related comments though, please go over to that thread.

Thanks guys!
Any luck fixing issues where people's games freeze during intermission when switching between screens (post game Carnage report back to the search screen or other menu interactions)? Happens in BTB constantly since overtime update. And results in people getting kicked right when we finally find a game, preventing said game from starting. My guess is in BTB with 16 in a game the odds of it happening go up since there are so many players. It's like a 1 in 16 chance it happens to you so it effectively happens every game to someone out of the 16 players.
You must be very busy. I've been noticing a lot of your recent updates have been late at night. Anyway, I'll just repost what I posted in the previous thread and hope to get a response or at least get it looked at.

Quote:
Josh, can you look into the issue of the game getting a full lobby while searching in BTB and then a few seconds later someone will back out most likely due to the game saying they're unable to join (that's happened to me), and then we're stuck in the searching lobby for another 2-3 minutes to get a game or even longer if more people decide to back out. It can sometimes end up with a 7-10 minute total wait time before I get into a game.

.....

Also, in the Overtime update path notes, ske7ch mentioned that scoring a goal in Assault will now have ball damage:
Quote:
  • Assault changes:
- Changed default settings for Assault to have ball explosion damage enabled on score
The issue that I'm noticing is that it doesn't seem to be working. In the numerous Assault games that I've played since the patch, I've only experienced or saw people getting goal scoring damage one time. The blast damage diameter is pretty big when I experienced it, so I don't think it's working when I see the scoring team still alive when they were around the goal after a score.

Edit: You can use this game from last night as evidence of it not working. No one died in all three bomb scores and for the last one, I was in the bomb scoring zone with a few other people when it went off and nothing happened.

Dbl Edit: I finally got another game where dying from the ball scoring worked, but in a previous game on that same night it didn't. It seems to be very inconsistent.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
You must be very busy. I've been noticing a lot of your recent updates have been late at night. Anyway, I'll just repost what I posted in the previous thread and hope to get a response or at least get it looked at.

Quote:
Josh, can you look into the issue of the game getting a full lobby while searching in BTB and then a few seconds later someone will back out most likely due to the game saying they're unable to join (that's happened to me), and then we're stuck in the searching lobby for another 2-3 minutes to get a game or even longer if more people decide to back out. It can sometimes end up with a 7-10 minute total wait time before I get into a game.

.....

Also, in the Overtime update path notes, ske7ch mentioned that scoring a goal in Assault will now have ball damage:
Quote:
  • Assault changes:
- Changed default settings for Assault to have ball explosion damage enabled on score
The issue that I'm noticing is that it doesn't seem to be working. In the numerous Assault games that I've played since the patch, I've only experienced or saw people getting goal scoring damage one time. The blast damage diameter is pretty big when I experienced it, so I don't think it's working when I see the scoring team still alive when they were around the goal after a score.

Edit: You can use this game from last night as evidence of it not working. No one died in all three bomb scores and for the last one, I was in the bomb scoring zone with a few other people when it went off and nothing happened.

Dbl Edit: I finally got another game where dying from the ball scoring worked, but in a previous game on that same night it didn't. It seems to be very inconsistent.
The BTB issue you mentioned is being actively investigated.
ZaedynFel wrote:
The BTB issue you mentioned is being actively investigated.
Alright, thanks. From reading around the forums, it seems to be affecting multiple playlists.
I know I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but I really want to reiterate, that 1 thing we really need right now is a real social slayer.
People just want to be able to jump in and play a game without thinking too much... and currently, H5 just doesn't offer that.

And by that, I mean 2 things:

1. A preference for fairness (eg. 50/50 chance of winning) rather than skill range.
For social, the preference should be on close games, not whether a silver is playing an Onyx.
Ranked would be the opposite: people expect close skill ranges, but not necessarily fair games.
Halo 5 does the opposite of this in social, so everyone just ends up "trying too hard" because it preferences MMR too much.
Conversely, as population dwindles, it's the win-loss prediction that has steadily been widened over time.. this is the opposite of what you want for a social experience.

2. A "normal" game (eg. map!).
I get that 343 is trying to widen the experience by introducing "new types" of maps...
But you've gone too far.
In older games, you would play very similar maps 80% of the time, and "weird" maps the rest...
But in Halo 5, half the maps are just weird... eg. Overgrowth is all hallways, Coliseum is mostly open space...
These are valuable experiences, and it's obviously a good thing to have a variety to choose from...
But "boring" maps should still make up the majority, maps with both open spaces & hallways, not just "one or the other."
Eg. The Pit, Heretic, Construct, Narrows... notice: these are all H3 maps.
H5 is all over the map, it tries too hard to be unique in the experience.
Honestly, just be more boring and use the maps from H3 classic playlist.
They played well and they weren't very laggy compared to most forge maps.

2(b). Slayer, man.
Seriously, I don't know how many times...
I've played with sooo many people who just straight up play 1 game, then quit out of the build and play something else...
Because they don't want to play objective or ranked.
343: look at the numbers... H3's Social Slayer's playlist was world's ahead of anything else.
Calculate the percentages, let me know.. idk. maybe I'm completely off base with this...
But most people just want a regular, normal, boring map with boring slayer.

Personally, I'm the opposite. I love objective and I like a variety of maps.
But 90% of people I play with, they just want "normal:" slayer and "normal" score-board and "normal" maps.
And that's because Halo nailed it with gameplay.
And even Halo 5 has extremely rewarding gun battles.
People don't want to think, "now I'm on Coliseum, time to snipe/dmr" or "now I'm on overgrowth, time to crouch and grenade."
Most normal people just want to shoot their gun and maybe have a weird experience that odd 20% of the time.

It might sound weird, but H5's biggest issue is that it tried too hard to be ambitious.
It tried to make 80% of the battles the "weird" battles.
It tried to make all of the content super unique and super enthralling.
But most people just want to relax, and only occasionally have something like fast movement (eg. man cannon vs. sprint).

#makeHaloBoringAgain
(Sorry if this doesn't sound very coherent, really tired atm :p)

Anyway, the point I'm saying relevant to the topic... is please just make a normal social slayer with fair matches (instead of "skill ranges") and normal maps (which the forge community already created for you).
Are you going to fix the framerate issues on the breakout map knell?
ZaedynFel wrote:
I'll leave this post here for you to continue the discussions we've been having.
I was able to play a lot of HCS Oddball over the holiday, but can’t say that I enjoyed it thanks to large skill gaps.

For me, solo focused searching and my uncompromising lack of ability yielded heavily lopsided and painful placement matches resulting in Bronze 1 status. From there typical games included:

Bronze 1 vs. Gold 1
Bronze 2 vs. Gold 5
Bronze 4 vs. Gold 4
Bronze 4 vs. Diamond 1
etc.

Is this correct? If so, what incentive do I have to play? Where's the opportunity to learn? Where's the fun? I don’t mind if I win or lose, but I at least want the chance to improve and compete, not be target practice for vastly superior players.

While it may make for convenient modelling and matchmaking, I would never combine and oppose grade school and college basketball players with and against one another in the real world. Why do it here?

Thanks.
Thanks Josh,

At first, I was against the change to BR/Gunfighter starts, but after some time playing, I realized that the sky actually wasn’t falling, and that you guys ended up making some pretty damn fun settings. I played about 150 games of the BR/GF starts, and now I hate to see that we’re going back to the previous settings. I felt that overall the game required more skill while also being appealing to a larger population of people vs the previous settings in the HCS playlist. I was definitely a minority amongst competitive players, but I think that most of the backlash from the comp scene was due to not wanting to adjust to this change 2 years in - which was my initial concern as well. But man, after a certain point I simply could not ignore how much better the new settings felt.

Ive talked to a handful of other comp players who enjoyed the new settings too, but unfortunately we were far out numbered by those who didn’t like the change... I truly hope that BR starts make a return to comp Halo in Halo 6.

Another thing that many seem to ignore here, is the dire situation we are in with an ever declining HCS playlist population... Reverting back to the older settings surely means that HCS and Arena won’t be merged, therefore we will likely continue to see this decline in HCS indefinitely...

On that note, it sounds like BR/GF starts aren’t gone for good, is that correct? Does this mean in the near future that all other playlists like Arena, FFA, and Slayer will have these new settings? I don’t plan on competing in 2018, so if that’s the case, I’m pretty sure I’ll be going back to Team Arena and FFA :)

Thanks for the update. I know you’ve probably had more angry kids screaming at you recently than you bargained for... Thanks again!
Josh, do you have any idea whether the team factored in how the weapon tuning nerfs (especially BR, Carbine, DMR) would affect WZ and BTB? It seems like zero thought was given to how the WZ meta might be affected - and it was affected hugely for the worse with these changes. These maps and the WZ game-type just do not play well with these low-lethality loadouts. I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed, especially because it seemed like with the recent 12-man change and tightened MM parameters, WZ was getting pretty fun.
We do not need Skirmish to return. If all you and your friends want to do is shoot their guns and play Slayer than Team Slayer is really the best bet. Better potential for evenly matched games. I saw and had nothing but sweat fest games in Social. I will never understand why people seem to think Social is the be all end all of just chill play.

lLockout wrote:
"If you have HCS-related comments though, please go over to that thread."
DaxSeven09 wrote:
We do not need Skirmish to return. If all you and your friends want to do is shoot their guns and play Slayer than Team Slayer is really the best bet. Better potential for evenly matched games. I saw and had nothing but sweat fest games in Social. I will never understand why people seem to think Social is the be all end all of just chill play.

lLockout wrote:
"If you have HCS-related comments though, please go over to that thread."
I came here through his twitter and it looks like i clicked the wrong link. Sorry
ZaedynFel wrote:
Hey folks, sorry I haven't had a lot of updates on this side lately. Between the holidays and HCS settings work, my schedule has been pretty full with other work.

I do have an update over on the HCS forum for those interested.

For the rest of you, I haven't forgot about social and non-HCS playlist related concerns and they are definitely on my list.

I'll leave this post here for you to continue the discussions we've been having.

If you have HCS-related comments though, please go over to that thread.

Thanks guys!
Anything on reverting the tuning that no one likes? Because I won't play Halo 5 unless everything gets reverted back to what they were originally.
I haven't been playing regularly anymore, but this matchmaking is pathetic! WZ I've only got to play 3 maps. Stormbreak, ARC, Darkstar. For a couple of days now. Mainly ARC... You either get steamrolled of you get put on the team that steamrolls. 4 Onyx and diamonds against silvers and golds, common!!!! This gets really frustrating. This is the worst I've seen this game since release. I don't play ranked because I'm older than dirt, but I really like the game like thousands others. I loved the old games although fun but, because things evolve just like everything else in existence we move on... Just make the game playable and fair.... If I were boss, half the team would get canned for not testing the updates #1. Who's in charge that has no repercussions for total failure... The game crashes because you guys don't test or do the necessary troubleshooting... It get's released hell or high water just to get it out and then you get hate because it's screwed up... You guys put out an excellent game. If MS is too stupid leave like Bungie did.
Hi there!!
we are busy with all this festivities, even though thanks for your time!!
We love Halo community and we really need you
😊
OP,

I just thought of an idea to deal with the smurf issue. All silver accounts must complete the campaign in normal or higher difficulty. This should discourage plenty of people from using alt accounts while new players use the campaign to familiarize themselves with the controls. You are welcome.
NODASH wrote:
OP,

I just thought of an idea to deal with the smurf issue. All silver accounts must complete the campaign in normal or higher difficulty. This should discourage plenty of people from using alt accounts while new players use the campaign to familiarize themselves with the controls. You are welcome.
People are only smurfing because they can't find games on their main, once you hit diamond in certain playlists like SWAT it takes 10+ minutes to match and as you hit onyx/champ it can take way over 30 minutes easily, when/if the matchmaking is fixed I guarantee you the smurfs will drastically decrease. People bought the game to play but are being forced to either not find a game or make a fresh tag, it sucks, I have played many smurfs and they all say the same thing and I have experienced it first hand.
NODASH wrote:
People are only smurfing because they can't find games on their main
This is one reason people create alternate accounts, but not the only one. There are a lot of people who create alternate accounts, and sometimes intentionally de rank them to low MMR, so they can play easy games, get a lot of kills without trying to hard, and feel like they're having a non-sweaty experience. Good players often like the feeling of being able to get easy kills on players slightly or very below their skill level. It feels "relaxing" to them. So they will go to any lengths to have this experience, including making low rank alternate accounts. This is the same reason many people request social playlists without MMR matching restrictions.

A more fundamental question for game designers is whether there's a way for players to have that experience, without alienating or driving away lesser skilled players from the playlists. I honestly don't know what the answer to that question is . Call of duty and other titles seem to enable that experience, but low skilled players don't tend to flee those games. But it may be that the high skill gap of halo leads to different results. I honestly don't know, but this is something 343 will need to wrestle with. It seems like tight skill-based matching parameters aren't quite the perfect solution, Because people get "sweat fatigue," though there are benefits to that tight MM approach as well.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
NODASH wrote:
It seems like tight skill-based matching parameters aren't quite the perfect solution, Because people get "sweat fatigue," though there are benefits to that tight MM approach as well.
To that point, I would actually prefer tighter skill-based MM parameters. For example, I'm Gold 6 in Doubles and my partner is ranked about 2 games ahead of me which can either put him matched at Gold 6 with me or at Platinum 1 right now. I personally don't appreciate it when I see that the opposing team that we just lost to is a Platinum 4 partnered with a Gold 1. The end result is the Platinum 4 just got 21 of the 25 total kills. This again speaks to the high skill-gap in Halo, which I don't think is a bad thing, but because of the high skill-gap (even the large difference between a Platinum 1/Gold 6 to a possibly legitimate Platinum 4) there needs to be tighter parameters on who is allowed to party up with who when it comes to Ranked Playlists. I'm sure there are a lot of players that might not appreciate my assessment, but personally I would only allow players to party with other players that are +/- only 1 rank. (Gold 6 can only partner with Platinum 1 and Gold 5, so even in a team of 4 the players can only be 2 ranks from the minimum/maximum.)

Just my opinion, not saying it's right. this obviously doesn't do anything for possible "sweat fatigue". But that's completely variable.
Jack 0O1 wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
NODASH wrote:
It seems like tight skill-based matching parameters aren't quite the perfect solution, Because people get "sweat fatigue," though there are benefits to that tight MM approach as well.
To that point, I would actually prefer tighter skill-based MM parameters. For example, I'm Gold 6 in Doubles and my partner is ranked about 2 games ahead of me which can either put him matched at Gold 6 with me or at Platinum 1 right now. I personally don't appreciate it when I see that the opposing team that we just lost to is a Platinum 4 partnered with a Gold 1. The end result is the Platinum 4 just got 21 of the 25 total kills. This again speaks to the high skill-gap in Halo, which I don't think is a bad thing, but because of the high skill-gap (even the large difference between a Platinum 1/Gold 6 to a possibly legitimate Platinum 4) there needs to be tighter parameters on who is allowed to party up with who when it comes to Ranked Playlists. I'm sure there are a lot of players that might not appreciate my assessment, but personally I would only allow players to party with other players that are +/- only 1 rank. (Gold 6 can only partner with Platinum 1 and Gold 5, so even in a team of 4 the players can only be 2 ranks from the minimum/maximum.)

Just my opinion, not saying it's right. this obviously doesn't do anything for possible "sweat fatigue". But that's completely variable.
Yeah I mean I think most people would prefer tight skill matching in Ranked play, even at the expense of slightly longer wait times (to a point...)

But people ADDITIONALLY often like "relaxed games" where they can mess around, and either get easy kills or else at least not constantly be dying. And many people can't really find that in H5 arena matchmaking. It's a bit easier to find in WZ and BTB. Of course I realize that while some players may be having an "easy" game, others in that lobby may be struggling mightily in that same lobby, against better players, if you have loose "social" skill matching. So there's no obvious solution to help players find "fun" games in arena gametypes that doesn't risk turning off or alienating lower skill players. It's a tough balance.
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