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[Locked] MATCHMAKING FEEDBACK UPDATE – November 5

OP ZaedynFel

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eLantern wrote:
And that's fine. No system is going to be perfect. I just very much prefer the system where I don't have a voice in my head to fast play every engagement vs. playing each situation for the win, even if it's slow. I have played games in every Halo where I know the players on the other team, I know he has a better shot than me and I can't just fly into an encounter- but I know I can bait them, out-think them and sometimes steal a win. That's not rewarded much now. From a game quality perspective, I think it's a negative.
That's not true.
  1. The CSR system still only rewards based on wins. It will self-correct to adjust to one's assessed skill, but match outcomes (W/L) are still the only manner in which you can increase or decrease your rank.
  2. The TS2/MMR system is still primarily based on match outcomes despite the inclusion of individual KPM (and to a lesser degree DPM) influences that can sway some adjustments in opposition of the team adjustment. Their purpose is to further identify personal skill which directly leads to increased predictive accuracy.
  3. From a game quality perspective, more accurate skill-based matchmaking (SBMM) is the most critical component. And from an individual rank perspective, rank integrity is the most critical component. These two things are, more or less, being achieved now.
Win/losses are an artificial unlocking event. That's it. Any win rate beyond an absurd outlier is going to converge.

Re: game quality- I mean that, is a big ranked win/play enjoyable? If I get feedback that is inverse to the outcome of that game, it's less likely. So that's one of the reasons why I have repeatedly said I would trade a small amount of global accuracy, while maintaining a high accuracy and rank integrity.
QX wrote:
QX wrote:
QX wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
eLantern wrote:
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
This Roy/Flamesword clinic on stream is why /min rates should not be used in Halo MMR. Slow and steady.
https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/4p52te/kills_and_deaths_per_minute_in_the_pro_league/

Would you rather be Lethul or Ninja?
I use this only for illustrative purposes. Both are excellent, top 0.01% tier- and I assume even these metrics support that. Only use this as a relative example.

Globally, I am certain aggressive playstyles outpace passive or anchoring playstyles. No argument. But there are going to really good "slow" players that are probably better than your aggressive players of that rank- and TS2 won't reflect that. Some cases obviously more extreme than others, and in most cases, changes will probably be small (within the delta, as Josh put it).

And that's fine. No system is going to be perfect. I just very much prefer the system where I don't have a voice in my head to fast play every engagement vs. playing each situation for the win, even if it's slow. I have played games in every Halo where I know the players on the other team, I know he has a better shot than me and I can't just fly into an encounter- but I know I can bait them, out-think them and sometimes steal a win. That's not rewarded much now. From a game quality perspective, I think it's a negative.

So for those reasons like that, I am comfortable trading a couple points of global accuracy. That is my opinion, and I'd guess would be a lot more players if they understood the system.
I guess my only worry would be how much of a loss to global accuracy we would take. Personally going back to the old system (I know you are not advocating for that just an example) which was more W/L would be worse for rank integrity. I'm sure most players would be fine with it since they could achieve higher ranks. Several of my friends were able to get champions in various playlists that they absolutely didn't deserve because CSR was able to drift far from MMR.

As a side note I think it is dangerous to think that playing every engagement fast will inherently increase rank. If you are a better passive player (myself included since my positioning, movement, and spawn knowledge much better than my comparative shot) then Im willing to bet playing passive will net you a better KPM than playing a Ninja playstyle would.
To your first point, my guess is it's largely dependent upon the game population. Which, I can only assume, is a problem 343 has to always consider. It's not 2008. Loosening matchmaking opens up a whole can of worms with mixed ranks that I imagine kill rates does a much better job of addressing. I'd personally prefer an Overwatch approach to minimize piggybacking- your party has to be within X CSR of each other, but I get why that would be hard to pull off at this stage.

I still find TS2 a problem playing in a skilled stack. Only so many kills to go around. If you pick up a lesser 4th, sacrifice a bit in the win %, we still see quicker gains in ranked. It does change everyone's mindset a bit.

And while it hasn't effected me personally a great deal, I have listened to a ton of confusion over rank progression/feedback. While it's not an argument we've talked about, I'd almost prefer a bit of inflation if it added a fuzzy feeling that kept people playing and promoted a healthy population (collecting 50s, for example). I worry that the need for an advanced degree to wade through each rank interpretation is going to eventually disinterest some players.

To your second point, I would say at times it's still appropriate. There are other times- say, if the other team has camo or overshield- the "smart" play would be to let it bleed away for as long as possible. Now- I'd argue it's better to risk the death, since avoiding a fight is very rarely ever going to be the EV+ play now.
Hi Josh,

It sounds like MMR adjustments in TS2 are dependent on:
  • (primary) win/loss fact and the average MMR of the two teams - i.e. if you win a game you weren't supposed to win, your MMR will jump.
  • (secondary) KPM and DPM relative to the MMRs of all players in the game - i.e. if you slay much harder & faster than your MMR predicted given the average skill in the match, your MMR will jump.
Have you tested including a middle ground between these two predictive stats - namely team points per minute? i.e. team KPM in slayer, team caps per min in flag, team obj time per min in strongholds and oddball, team points per min in WZ, etc.

It seems like the team x-per-minute stat would capture all the information in the win/loss stat, but be much more telling about the relative skill differences between teams, and since it contains a lot of extra information, it would allow for faster and more accurate MMR adjustments at the team level. That might allow you to down-weight the individual stats (KPM) but retain high predictive accuracy and allow very fast MMR jumps if a smurf player is consistently on teams that are winning games faster than the smurf MMR would predict.
RzR J3ST3R wrote:
Hi Josh,

It sounds like MMR adjustments in TS2 are dependent on:
  • (primary) win/loss fact and the average MMR of the two teams - i.e. if you win a game you weren't supposed to win, your MMR will jump.
  • (secondary) KPM and DPM relative to the MMRs of all players in the game - i.e. if you slay much harder & faster than your MMR predicted given the average skill in the match, your MMR will jump.
Based on everything I've gathered from Josh by way of Twitter, Discord, Waypoint, and Video Interview this is my understanding of TS2.0/MMR:
  • [PRIMARY] A match outcome (W/L) along with the disparity between average team MMRs will establish a net adjustment.

    If you win a game that you weren't expected to win there's a much greater chance your MMR will improve. But it's not guaranteed to occur at the individual level. The only assurance provided by the match outcome (W/L) on MMR is towards the team's net adjustment. A win will guarantee a positive net change just as a loss will guarantee a negative net change (For The Team). The amount (of the net change) seems to be a combination of factors that relate to match expectations. This directly corresponds to the disparity between the average MMR of the two teams, but it also may include the length-of-time that the match took to complete. I'm not 100% certain about the match time factor, but I think it's safe to assume a time period range plays some type of role on the net adjustment.

    Anyways, a match outcome that defies expectation results in the system self-correcting its understanding of the teams. These particular re-adjustments will result in larger net MMR gains or losses for the teams. The individual team member adjustments are a zero sum byproduct (adjustment) of the team's net adjustment. Thus, the larger the net adjustment the greater the odds are for an individual to receive a portion of it.
  • [SECONDARY] Kills per Minute (KPM) and, to a much lesser degree, Deaths per Minute (DPM) are the individual performance-based metrics.

    If you slay faster than the range your MMR predicted for the particular mode you were playing (and against the opposing skill level) then your MMR will likely increase. However, this is also not guaranteed as it's relative to the performances of your teammates too. This is because, as mentioned previously, it's a zero sum byproduct adjustment of the team's net adjustment. In other words, if you only slightly outperform your expected range, but your teammates greatly outperform theirs you may not see an increase in your MMR.

    KPM & DPM expectations possess various weighted ranges based on the mode and difference in perceived skill. They self-adjust based on global plus personal trends. Now, I'm not sure if this self-adjustment is actively accomplished moment-to-moment or match-to-match or if it only occurs after a new batch run is preformed or some combination. Nevertheless, these metrics simply serve as a method to identify individual influences on match outcomes in order to appropriately scale skill-based adjustments at an individual level instead of awarding team members equally from the net adjustment.

    As mentioned previously it’s possible for an individual’s MMR to independently increase or decrease in opposition to the team’s net adjustment, but the zero sum aspect means that their teammates (per their particular individual adjustments) are required to offset that individual’s MMR adjustment such that the team’s net adjustment is realized. This is all because a team's performance is still ultimately a sum of its individual parts. And due to the fact that matchmaking is a system designed to constantly create new teams from independent individuals and/or variable groups of individuals who elect to search for a potential match. In other words, it's not like a tournament that features, or establishes, pre-registered teams. Teams that essentially lock-in members as one cohesive unit throughout a tournament period verses one match.
  • [NOTEWORTHY] Severe outlier performances may get flagged by the system and potentially ignored by TS2 if it seems to clash dramatically with historic expectations. This is done out of concern for manipulation that's deemed unacceptable.
In the end, match outcome (W/L) is still the most important component. Pace and individual performance certainly play roles with regards to skill recognition and progression, but the moment selfish play rears its ugly head in hopes of improving one's personal performance (which is often detrimental to match outcome) it actually is restricting a player's potential skill assertation and progression. Playing as an efficient team and for one-another will always be the most successful way to improve. The system acknowledges this fact while also appropriately recognizing the individual contributions in order to provide improved predictive accuracy.

I welcome Josh to further clarify if I'm mistaken or misrepresenting anything that I've taken from his comments/words to form my personal understanding.
Re: Game Quality - I mean that, is a big ranked win/play enjoyable? If I get feedback that is inverse to the outcome of that game, it's less likely.
Thankfully, there's a hard rule built into the CSR system that ensures the feedback isn't inverse. The fact that a win will always result in a positive CSR adjustment and a loss a negative CSR adjustment means there will be some direct and appropriate feedback from the match outcome. Not to mention, the most recent CSR updates have gone a long way toward further improving the post-match feedback aspect so that it's not as rigid or draconian (to steal Josh's term) which was proving to be quite problematic for many people. But as long as there remains an MMR lag that feedback will not account for the individual skill adjustment from the most recently completed match which admittedly isn't ideal and why I continue to press Josh about future CSR adjustment methods (looking towards Infinite).
BTB hasn't been doing great in Halo 5 because there isn't enough map rotations and at this very moment, I've been stuck in matchmaking queue because 'my party is too large' to find a match. You also created 2 BTB playlists which splits the population even more. I'm forced to play Fiesta because I can't match in BTB regular.

Here's a better idea. Quit updating the MCC and actually focus on your current title. You are doing nothing to your company name by rebranding and increasing preformance to games your company didn't make (besides Halo 4). I already played those games, they are the past. Why is my current generation game slacking behind games from 2012 and beyond?

Add new maps to the BTB playlist. You update and refresh 4v4 maps, also added a new 2v2 playlist with maps I recently saw on Forgehub. You have a community of Forgers at your finger tips that build maps for free and you do nothing to support the smaller community of players. You focus more on HCS when that isn't all of your community. I'm SR 150. Legendary Solo. 24D 12H of Arena. 27D 20H of Warzone. 12D 23H of Customs. I play plenty of Forge.

You do nothing to clearly support the smaller groups besides HCS. I read into the Grassroots excited to see, you supporting people that are already popular. The reason the HCS player population is higher than the rest is due to your poor decisions of leaving a chunk of your community behind.

Oh right, I'm not a big fan of HCS so my post won't be noticed.
LUKEPOWA wrote:
Seriously? Sigh, I guess I'm done with H5 then if BTB goes rotational since that's basically the only thing I play and I'm not subjecting myself to mindless power weapon battles of Slayer 24/7. What a sad state of affairs if that's what most people want instead of a normal BTB playlist, and I feel sorry for the future of Halo if that's what the main attraction to it is going to be.

What I think would help for BTB:

1) Fix the search lobby bug where someone can't join and it starts booting people after they've already been searching for several minutes. It's been going on for over A YEAR.

2) Replace the BR with the long barrel or stabilization jets BR. Unyshek suggested doing that last month. The carbine pretty much destroys everything now and I think it needs a small change although unlikely so hopefully this would help.

3) New maps obviously, but gametype and weapon layout/vehicle changes to the existing maps in the rotation are also needed and could help.

4) A heavies variant. One thing that people complain about is a lack of vehicles on a lot of maps and the smallness of the maps themselves. Bigger maps with a heavies variant could be something that attracts people back to the playlist.

5) More variety of gametypes. Roaming Hill/Strongholds, Territories, 1 objective stuff and/or Team Regicide? (saw it in H4).

6) Unnerf the Banshee. I think it needs a cool down between flips, but 3 seconds is too much. I think 2 seconds would be better.
I completely agree with your post. Don't you love how 343 is focusing on the 'core' players when the real core players are stuck in a matchmaking queue indefinitely? The statistical numbers they are referring to are false. Im stuck in a 15/16 lobby all the time.

The BR has definitely changed. I always look for the carbine or DMR just for the fact of the BR feeling so weak. It also frustrates me when someone at mid range and do so much damage with the AR, as if 343 was using it to replace the BR. Better yet, why don't I just pick up the rockets and seem to spawn none stop on Deadlock along with the over powered, 2 shot kill, spartan seeking Hydra. Did I mention that is spawns with 18 shots total?

What about sentinal beam? Forgot the name of the H3 Last mission looking map, but the beam spawns incredibly fast. Does massive damage on players and vehicles. Why put the Spartan Laser if I can just beam everything?

Oh man. Not to mention the Active Camo being 100% in BTB but when you play Warzone, its like 80% or 90% visibility. The flag carrier can steal the flag and walk out because they are thin air.

Spawns. Spawns. Spawns. I'm so sick of the visual checks and not the radial checks. I could have a player spawn 2 feet away from me, because I'm standing behind a beam, a rock, a piece of paper, etc.

Maps. The maps have not changed in over a year. The fact that there is still a population to begin with should obviously show there is still activity in the community with BTB. Is it really hard to make a Forge Contest here on Halowaypoint? Invest in your 'Content Creators' not just your streamers.

This game is failing because 343 doesn't know how to manage their playlists. When I go into matchmaking solo, I play with a bunch of 8 years old that only have the game because it was T rating or got it as a gift. So if 343 is basing the statistics on the 8 year olds and Try hard no life players that don't work over 40 hours a week, have bills, and responsibilities.. Halo is doomed.
When might we see an update to modes, maps or settings in Team Arena and maps in Slayer? Wouldn't mind seeing oddball go away and the forge maps.
When might we see an update to modes, maps or settings in Team Arena and maps in Slayer? Wouldn't mind seeing oddball go away and the forge maps.
Here's a timeline of recent playlist refreshes/updates/introductions:

  • Infection (Nov) + Warzone Assault shifted to weekend rotational
  • Introduced Big Team Super Fiesta (Oct)
  • Introduced [rotational] Roaming Kings (Sep)
  • Slayer, SWAT, & Super Fiesta (Aug) + [rotational] Promethean Slayer was introduced
  • Team Arena (Jul)
  • Team Arena (Jun)
  • Warzone, Team Arena, & FFA (May) + Elimination was created
  • Team Arena (Apr)
I wouldn't expect Slayer or Team Arena to receive a new update anytime soon. Nor would I understand their (343i's) reason or motivation to remove Oddball mode + the Forge maps from Team Arena.
Disappointed that there was no information regarding the supposed BTB refresh in the latest community update. I guess all the people here crying out for refresh and that it would make the game fun again have fallen on deaf ears.

Had hoped the refresh would happen before the end of the year, but alas nada. I think at this point it would be too little too late to give BTB the chance it deserves that is was denied at launch.

Despite 343s attitude towards BTB (as in it doesn't fit in to their ultra competitive, cater only to the ones that play 'professionally' mindset), I hope that something is brewing that brings BTB up to the level of polish that their ultra competitive playlists have.
NiCuZn wrote:
Had hoped the refresh would happen before the end of the year, but alas nada.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Our current plans with BTB are as follows:
  • Monitor it as we enter the holiday season. If holiday traffic is enough to keep it alive, we’ll leave it up and reconsider its future in January
  • Begin work on a refresh. If BTB can hang on long enough, we will see how well it does after a refresh before moving it to a rotational
  • If these both fail, then BTB shouldn’t be an exception given how much better every other list has done as a rotational when it starts behaving this way.
NiCuZn wrote:
Had hoped the refresh would happen before the end of the year, but alas nada.
ZaedynFel wrote:
Our current plans with BTB are as follows:
  • Monitor it as we enter the holiday season. If holiday traffic is enough to keep it alive, we’ll leave it up and reconsider its future in January
  • Begin work on a refresh. If BTB can hang on long enough, we will see how well it does after a refresh before moving it to a rotational
  • If these both fail, then BTB shouldn’t be an exception given how much better every other list has done as a rotational when it starts behaving this way.
Poor choice of words on my part. A better interpretation (of the community update) should have been that BTB has received no special mention or attention (to try and get players to play it again). To be perfectly honest, it looks like they are getting ready to leave for the holidays by setting up a plan of things to come for the next month or so.

I do see that having the BTB refreshed for the holiday season was expecting to much from a multiplayer team that has said in the past (in this thread) that their not really interested in keeping a game mode that has been in every previous title, but died in this one due to their disinterest in what it offers.
Fix the br i love the br and it should be my go to weapon but it isn't and that's sad because love the nd but know it's a shell of what it used to be
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Big Team BattleFor a long period of time BTB was a solid social playlist and in fact the minimum popularity bar we used to judge whether a list should stay permanent. Lately, however, it has become near impossible to find matches for around half the day. It appears the bulk of players needed to maintain a healthy list now prefer the Super Fiesta variant, leaving only classic BTB enthusiasts still engaged in the original BTB playlist. We feel it would be more beneficial to those who love BTB to be able to have a good experience with it rather than waiting 5 minutes without a match.

Our current plans with BTB are as follows:
  • Monitor it as we enter the holiday season. If holiday traffic is enough to keep it alive, we’ll leave it up and reconsider its future in January
  • Begin work on a refresh. If BTB can hang on long enough, we will see how well it does after a refresh before moving it to a rotational
  • If these both fail, then BTB shouldn’t be an exception given how much better every other list has done as a rotational when it starts behaving this way.
The population of BTB is low because of a couple of factors which all stem from changes that you guys (343) made starting last year including

1. MMR based matching in a social playlist.
  • Pre-game lobbies - For some reason, during the pre-game loading screen, if there is only 15/16 players queued up - THE GAME WONT START and the game rarely finds a 16th player. The result is a 5 minute wait session, crossing our fingers hoping someone gets matched up. I've gone 20 minutes searching and sitting in 15/16 queued lobbies just to play one game. I've actually given up even trying to play solo a few nights because of it.
  • If the game does actually start, and someone quits, a new player immediately gets spawned into the game. No waiting, its almost instantaneous. Why? How can the pregame lobby time out completely, but in game puts someone in?
2. Changes to the BR which butchered it. It's not even enjoyable to shoot anymore.
  • Do I even need to say more? do competitive players even pick it up in HCS?
3. Lack of variation in game types and maps. When is the last time a refresh was made? For god sake, a refresh bringing back maps that were previously in the playlist would be all it would take. I'm certainly bored to death of waiting 20 minutes to find a game, yet when I do its Dispelled Slayer for the 247th time in a row.

I would really hate to see a playlist that has been so ingrained into the fabric of Halo matchmaking over the last 2 decades, be tossed aside, because of mistakes made by the developer when they were trying to help. Fix the issues that have caused players to abandon BTB, dont just simply get complacent.

On the other hand, if you just dont have the staff, I get it.

Might give Bo4 or RDR2 a try
I disagree. Read my last comment.

BTB has never been strong in H5, regardless of its place in past Halos. We have to look at the audience it has now vs. the past. The average bulk H5 player isn't that interested in BTB and never has been. Not in the presence of Warzone and now BTB SF.

That doesn't mean there isn't a group of folks playing H5 who love it, but that group isn't a core part of H5.

I feel more like the core pop has moved on, and the leftover BTB enthusiast community isn't large enough to sustain the list without changes that invite folks currently happy in other playlists back, as well as the enthusiasts.

Also, I disgrew on the BR. The original BR scared off more of that original pop than it did invite them. Weakening the BR actually resulted in an increase in BTB's pop a year ago that was sustained up until BTB SF.
I disagree with you on the BR, I use only the Halo 2 BR in warzone and anything else other than the default version.
Maybe make breakout social and rotational? And remove extermination? I think if you reviewed extermination matches you'd find the number of quitters to be quite high. And it's quite difficult to get against all odds and especially unstoppable in extermination.

A breakout playlist that is a mix of only breakout and breakout 2.0 would be awesome. Either ranked or social.
Maybe make breakout social and rotational? And remove extermination? I think if you reviewed extermination matches you'd find the number of quitters to be quite high. And it's quite difficult to get against all odds and especially unstoppable in extermination.

A breakout playlist that is a mix of only breakout and breakout 2.0 would be awesome. Either ranked or social.
It would be nice to see the data for quitters across all three game types.
My question related to this game:
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/917a3e4a-8db1-4df8-9493-80421de5a4ed/players/ii%20drathnor%20ii?gameHistoryMatchIndex=21&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=ArenaIt was my last FFA Game of the day, played the ranked matches, ranked Diamond 3.

In this match I placed 2nd. But still lost CSR. I understood that all top 3 in FFA Gained CSR even if it was only +1 point, am I correct? how is the spread?
I cant win during matchmaking
My question related to this game:
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/games/halo-5-guardians/xbox-one/mode/arena/matches/917a3e4a-8db1-4df8-9493-80421de5a4ed/players/ii%20drathnor%20ii?gameHistoryMatchIndex=21&gameHistoryGameModeFilter=ArenaIt was my last FFA Game of the day, played the ranked matches, ranked Diamond 3.
In this match I placed 2nd. But still lost CSR. I understood that all top 3 in FFA Gained CSR even if it was only +1 point, am I correct? how is the spread?
We changed it back to similar to what it was pre-TrueSkill2.

Now you get the average of all of the possible 1v1 updates. So second place will lose points if the gains from the players they beat are less than the loss from losing to #1.
Zedfu wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
ZaedynFel wrote:
Big Team BattleFor a long period of time BTB was a solid social playlist and in fact the minimum popularity bar we used to judge whether a list should stay permanent. Lately, however, it has become near impossible to find matches for around half the day. It appears the bulk of players needed to maintain a healthy list now prefer the Super Fiesta variant, leaving only classic BTB enthusiasts still engaged in the original BTB playlist. We feel it would be more beneficial to those who love BTB to be able to have a good experience with it rather than waiting 5 minutes without a match.

Our current plans with BTB are as follows:
  • Monitor it as we enter the holiday season. If holiday traffic is enough to keep it alive, we’ll leave it up and reconsider its future in January
  • Begin work on a refresh. If BTB can hang on long enough, we will see how well it does after a refresh before moving it to a rotational
  • If these both fail, then BTB shouldn’t be an exception given how much better every other list has done as a rotational when it starts behaving this way.
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I disagree with you on the BR, I use only the Halo 2 BR in warzone and anything else other than the default version.
So you're just disagreeing just to be disagreeing. Because your comment has zero to do with what they were discussing.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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